I was there Spiller, you weren’t. I guess you’ll just have to take my word for it, Or not. I really don’t care. I’ve seen people like you on these boards for years. You come in get real loud, real bombastic get full of yourself and your own opinions and eventually die off when people realize your main intent is stirring things up and nobody pays attention to you anymore.Where was every other “Traditionalist?” Or regular Catholic for that matter? I read these stories and I cannot help but wonder if they are hyperbole? That sorta garbage would have created a problem the bishop could not overlook in my parish – today or even back in the day. Not sure why it was allowed in your parish.
Okay Spiller,Precisely what I typed. That quote (real or not) is nothing more than whack-job conspiracy theory stuff.
The drop in Mass attendance, vocations, conversions, along with the great numbers of Catholics who don’t practice the faith, not to mention the abuse of the liturgy and atrocious catechesis–all this is “trivial” compared to centuries past?!Where was every other “Traditionalist?” Or regular Catholic for that matter? I read these stories and I cannot help but wonder if they are hyperbole? That sorta garbage would have created a problem the bishop could not overlook in my parish – today or even back in the day. Not sure why it was allowed in your parish.
The Church didn’t come close to disintegrating. The garbage the Church has endured over the past 40-50 years is fairly trivial compared to what She has endured in centuries past. God promised She would not disintegrate:
Matthew 16:18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.
I think most of them, being Traditional Catholics, undertood obedience and probably just suffered in silence, trusting that there was a reason and that the Church knew what it was doing. After all, disobedience goes hand in hand with progressivism, more often that not.Over the past few years there has been a real push to stop liturgical and catechetical abuses in my parish. This has been accelerated greatly by a new bishop and a new pastor. Yet it’s still obvious – some (who would probably be mislabeled as “liberals” on this forum) who are entrenched somewhere in the mechanism of the Mass or catechetics at my parish have really circled their wagons and dug-in – preparing for a last stand if that’s what it takes. Few are fleeing. Thankfully with God’s help through our new bishop and pastor these people will in no way be insurmountable obstacles.
Why didn’t “Traditional Catholics” dig-in with the same resolve back in the mid/late 1960’s when a new string of abuses made their way into many of our parishes with the promulgation of the Pauline Mass? (Just so people don’t misunderstand, I am not talking about licit options within the Pauline Mass. I am talking about the abuses that made their way into parishes under the guise of the “spirit of vatican II.”)
It seems to me that most “Traditional Catholics” either stopped going to Mass or fled to other parishes. Why didn’t they stay in their home parishes and support their pastors – who I am sure largely rejected the abuses but were pressured into them by laypersons and some avant-guard clerics?
I really think the Church would be in better shape today in the USA if someone had fought actual abuses in the 1960’s and 1970’s with the same level of fortitude and determination show by those who wish to preserve them today. Where were the “Traditional Catholics?” Were they eagerly attending the Saturday night guitar Masses?
Well, I will vouch for the quote as the exact radio program and date was given, plus the quote was conveyed by at least two Catholic magazines at the time.First off I have no idea if the quote from that Frenchman is true or not. It just doesn’t seem to line up with the principles of a Pope who would swim against the tide and condemn contraception.
Secondly Palmas’ story about the nuns doing “Mass” with corn tortillas seems very plausible to to someone like myself who was in his 30’s at the time of Vatican II’s aftermath. There was a persistent rumor about a Mass said in a Minneapolis Park using Pizza and Pepsi Cola. I used to rub elbows with people my age who belonged to the Newman Center, Joan of Arc, and one other parish I can’t remember in the twin cities. They never did the corn tortilla kind of thing, but one didn’t have to be Catholic to be on the parish council or receive communion.
There are still some grey haired nuns today who do such nutty things and have a real chip on their shoulder for how the Church handles things. Back then they were young and crazy and in my estimation they are still crazy. On the other hand I have Nun friends who have stayed the course ( to borrow a Bushism) and are very faithful members of the Church.
Indeed, we seem to be once more finding our way out of some of the chaos that characterized the late 60’s and 70’s. There is hope, a lot of it.
No, I don’t fabricate things – but I am aware of Church history. Things have come a long way since it was illegal to be a Christian…The drop in Mass attendance, vocations, conversions, along with the great numbers of Catholics who don’t practice the faith, not to mention the abuse of the liturgy and atrocious catechesis–all this is “trivial” compared to centuries past?!
Are you just making up your comments off the top of your head?
I note it was Fr. John Hardon who noted in one of his talks that what the Church has gone through in the past forty years is the worst crisis She has ever endured (and is still enduring). Perhaps he knew what he was talking about.
Why weren’t those waves of “Traditionalists” to face those waves of “progressives” you speak of?I think most of them, being Traditional Catholics, undertood obedience and probably just suffered in silence, trusting that there was a reason and that the Church knew what it was doing. After all, disobedience goes hand in hand with progressivism, more often that not.
Some, of course, DID dig in and fight. Some of them did it incorrectly, thus the SSPX. Some did it correctly, and quite simply most of them lost. They were drowned out and beaten by the wave of progressives. After all, it was the 70s.
**
I think it took until recently for the group of Traditional Catholics** who suffered in silence to see that maybe not everyone in the Church DID know what they were doing. Or, if they did, maybe it wasn’t for the best. It took Pope John Paul II, who was more traditional than the popes before him (even if that is hard to believe compared to our present pope) to re-awaken them. And Benedict XVI is putting them in the forefront of his plan to renew the Church and Her identity.
Well, Spiller, thanks for accusing me of lying, I appreciate it.No, I don’t fabricate things – but I am aware of Church history. Things have come a long way since it was illegal to be a Christian…
Are you certain you are not making that comment up regarding Fr. Hardon?
I am going to repeat this again, Spiller. Traditionalists have been fighting all these years for the TLM to be released from its de facto suppression. If you want to know what traditionalists were doing all these years, that was it. And there’s a track record of it from their writings to the formation of groups like Una Voce.Why weren’t those waves of “Traditionalists” to face those waves of “progressives” you speak of?
Why did it take “until recently” for “Traditionalists” to gain that wisdom? John Paul II was Pope for how long? 27 years? In that time liturgical abuses could not be largely eradicated from the Church?
That’s ridiculous.I am going to repeat this again, Spiller. Traditionalists have been fighting all these years for the TLM to be released from its de facto suppression. If you want to know what traditionalists were doing all these years, that was it. And there’s a track record of it from their writings to the formation of groups like Una Voce.
Reference posting #62 you hypocrite:**Well, Spiller, thanks for accusing me of lying, I appreciate it. **
Here’s a website that carries Fr. Hardon’s writings and a quote from an article by Fr. Hardon:
“The Church is going through the worst crisis of her Catholic history. But she will not only survive, she will thrive. On one condition: that we priests be willing not only to live, but to die a martyr’s death for our faith in the priesthood given to us by Jesus Christ on the night before He died. Amen.”
therealpresence.org/archives/Priesthood/Priesthood_018.htm
But hey Spiller, maybe “The Real Presence Association” is just acting like they’re posting articles by Fr. Hardon. Maybe they’re just making it all up and lying too!
In the end I follow the Church and not Fr. Hardon…The drop in Mass attendance, vocations, conversions, along with the great numbers of Catholics who don’t practice the faith, not to mention the abuse of the liturgy and atrocious catechesis–all this is “trivial” compared to centuries past?!
**Are you just making up your comments off the top of your head? **
I note it was Fr. John Hardon who noted in one of his talks that what the Church has gone through in the past forty years is the worst crisis She has ever endured (and is still enduring). Perhaps he knew what he was talking about.
Spiller, I used the word “traditionalist” not traditionally-minded.That’s ridiculous.
There is FAR more to being a traditionally-minded Catholic than the EF.
Spiller, I was not implying with the phrase “Are you just making up your comments off the top of your head?” that I thought you were lying. Here is a definition for what I meant:Reference posting #62 you hypocrite:
In the end I follow the Church and not Fr. Hardon…
No, you were NOT. You simply were not looking (or perhaps living) in the right places.We stayed and fought. Otherwise you youngsters wouldn’t even have a church to go to today. We were crucified and hung out to dry and nobody outside of the church knew about it. Try kneeling for communion back in 1980 and you will find out all about persecution.Try acting traditional during the mass in 1980 and you would have found out all about persecution. Be a women with a head covering in mass in 1980 and see the reception you would get. People had rocks thrown at them after mass. We were maligned, gossiped about, yelled at; generally hated. Aw yes 1975 to 1990 those were the years of the great persecution. Drip by drip of blood for our Lord.
We didn’t have anyone on our side; we were totally alone.
You are very blessed, fortunate, and, as I think may others on this forum may attest, your situation was quite unique.No, you were NOT. You simply were not looking (or perhaps living) in the right places.
The **** you describe may have happened there, but that did not happen everywhere.
Growing up in the Roman Church, in the Archdiocese of Anchorage, I can not recall a single mass without some women with head coverings of various sorts… Three partcular black women come to mind immediately… 2 with “big hats” (“Auntie” Ruth and her sister…), and one with a chapel veil (not a mantilla). But also were mantillas, scarves, hoods, wimples, wigs, hair, and even a couple of ladies with no hair and just their shaven heads. Blacks, Whites, Natives, Orientals, Polynesians. One man made derisive comments about mantillas… three DSP Sisters scolded him soundly.
It was the 1990’s before I saw a female alter server in the role of acolyte. They had a role in the liturgy in the early 70’s to late 80’s ( I was in charge of the Altar Server program at the Cathedral, under the careful supervision of the Pastor and the Deacons, in the 85-87 time frame)… limited to bringing forth the gifts, fetching things forgotten in the sacristy, and on rare occasions, holding the sacramentary, or carring the processional cross, and of course, praying the mass visibly, Humbly, and by example. They did not, however, handle sacred vessels, hold the pattens, nor hold nor pour for the lavabo.
Nor do I recall any being denied communion for kneeling, save one dwarfed woman at daily mass… she was asked to stand, as Fr. could not bend that low. And that was due to his gout.
Now, Abuses get the press, but I find that I seldom see these so-called abuses in the Roman Church locally.