Why different religions

[Servant19]

My interpretation forces me to worship Jesus as God, the Holy spirit as God and the Father as God.

It’s not “your intepretation” at all Ignatian. Its an interpretation thats been handed to you and you’ve just accepted like a baby accepts milk from the mother’s breast.

You have totally shut yourself out of even looking at other types of food, even though you are clearly now an adult!

Do we have the same God? It would not seem so.

Catholicism seems to disagree with you. And before you say it, I KNOW you are not a Catholic!

Do we have the same Jesus even?

Probably not, but do you know for a fact that you have the same Jesus as the “real Jesus”?

For a religion based so squarely on a PERSON, there is a lot of speculation on who this Person was. Maybe your religion is not all about just the Person?

The Jesus you embrace did not rise from the dead (do not deliberately misinterpret that statement, you know what I mean) but remained dead in the ground. The Jesus you worship doesn’t draw attention to himself, he is not needed for salvation once a new prophet comes along.

The Jesus I worship is sufficient for all time and there is nothing lacking in his promise.

All these things have been fulfilled, there’s nothing new you are saying here Ignatian, its the same old stuff rinsed, washed and hanging to dry

So tell me how we are one based on this reality.

REALITY???

Show us one piece of evidence that proves the reality behind the Resurrection of the saints straight after Jesus’ resurrection. There were Saints walking the Roman streets, according to the Gospel, yet the greatest historians in history and the greatest Empire ever built have not one recording of this so called reality, and what a reality to miss in the history books!

Follow the Spirit, Ignatian, show courage and see the deeper meaning in the Gospels. Your spiritual life depends on it…“we are all children of God, and God is Spirit”, and that is how we are all one.

Often people remove themselves from the Spirit, and as a result express separation and segregation, but if we return to the Spirit, we are all ONE

.

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

Because one has their own reality does not take away from the Oneness and unity of Creation, the fact it comes From the One and Only God.

This has been discussed enough for it to be accepted or not

We are all connected and the actions we take as an individual attribute to the progress of the whole.

A good Gardener looks after all the plants of His Garden and gives them all the nourishment they need, to concentrate on one plant may make that plant Flourish but it is at the detriment to the remainder of the garden.

God Bless and regards Tony

You always make a lot of sense Tonyfish.

Thanks,
Gary

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

“There is only contradiction if that is want you want to find!”

This statement is tantamount to saying, there is only the same meaning if you want to find it. We have had these discussions before, about the contradictions between these texts or traditions you claim loyalty to. When Hebrews says Christ died once for the forgiveness of sins, you deny that, but you also deny it’s a contradiction, maintaining it must mean something else given the revelation of Mr Hussain.

Did Jesus create everything that began to exist as John maintains? Not according to you, he didn’t create anything as the universe is eternal. We could go in depth, but you would simply deny the contradictions exist. It goes beyond what is Just in the bible but even when I say what I believe you don’t seem to want to believe me, and instead say “that’s simply your interpretation.” As if my interpretation didn’t have any bearing on anything.

Now I do not recall Jesus ever saying in those exact words “look for the good in everyone,” but I do recall him condemning people. I even recall him raising Lazarus from the dead, a miracle you deny as well. I recall Jesus fashioning a cord and whipping out the money changers from the temple. I recall Jesus saying do not inhibit the children from coming to him and many other things bahai would have a problem with. I also remember him saying the comforter is the Holy Spirit, a point you have been corrected on many times in the past and have never addressed when the argument against your prophet has been made in detail.

“We are all united in Spirit and we can all uplift each other to greater heights. May God enable us to achieve this goal”

Now either you deny reality or I deny reality and so I put the situation before you like this. I maintain that someone you regard as a perfect emissary of God’s divine will, Ali Hussain, as a false prophet. You pray to him, you ask for him to help you, you need salvation from him and you believe he is the fulfilment of all prophecy. Yet you want to say we have the same united spirit? Am I uplifting you with what I will admit is hard and very critical works? You are fond of comparing Christians to the Pharisees that rejected Jesus, yet you don’t take that to the logical conclusion and realise I am the Pharisee to your Jesus, Ali Hussain, the so called Glory of God. You however, unlike the early church don’t have the tenacity or bravery to condemn me and I suppose that’s what disappoints me about this entire conversation.

In the book of acts, Stephen recalls the history of Israel and then goes on the condemn the priests as stiff necked people and he got killed for it. Unlike Stephan, you’re telling me I’m right but I just need to go a little bit further. Your denial of differences, of division, of different God’s I feel is your greatest weakness. The Bahai do not have the courage to proclaim their greatness and that they are the receivers of all the divine promises and when you do go so far as to claim, he was the fulfilment of all, you ruin your case by pronouncing someone greater will come and that those in the past aren’t really wrong.

 

[Matthew_Light]

The Bahai do not have the courage to proclaim their greatness and that they are the receivers of all the divine promises.

Actually, the entire world is the receiver of all the divine promises in this Day, not just Baha’is. Whether each of us tenders our cup from the stream of His Grace is up to us. For example, it is very clear to me that Pope Francis is drinking deeply from the cup of the Holy Spirit in this day and passing around that cup to all Catholics as well as everyone else on the planet.

We are – all of us – to build Christ’s promised Kingdom of God, through faith, justice, compassion, and ending war and aggression. That is the call of God, our response to the call is up to us.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

As for servant, who has the extreme and reckless bravery to presume anything about me and how I came to Christianity, asserts that the interpretation has been handed down to me and I have accepted it uncritically. He has moved beyond discussion into blatent attacks as to my motives for believing what I believe and I can only but say servant does not know a thing about me. Instead of dealing with my points, instead of correcting me, he pulls the oldest of bahai tricks, claims that I am a closed minded wretch who cannot accepted other points of view. The irony is, his words could be just as carelessly flung back at him, but I will not do that, instead I will demand to know the central points and how I am refuted.

1. How are we One?
2. What is oneness?
3. How do you explain away all the contradictions which can be posed between various religions without just saying that’s individual opinion.

He goes on to mention roman Catholicism, and then says he knows I am not Catholic. So why bring it up? Do the Catholics confess the Unitarian God of the Bahai? Not as far as I know. Catholics do confess they have the same God as the Muslims and I think that is an utter mistake for Catholicism, an error which needs to be addressed because they do not have the same God. Catholics have a God called Trinity, Father son and holy spirit, the Father being the eternal source of the Godhead and the holy spirit proceeding from the Father and the son. They do not have a God who condemns them to hell for worshipping Jesus Christ as the God who entered into the world. If any catholic wishes to challenge me on this, I welcome it but I would suggest it be done in another thread.

And yes, I will readily admit that my religion is based on a person. But if you are going to reject that foundation, I think you would have to embrace liberal academia and all its crazy opinions concerning Jesus. Do you believe in the Authority of the Gospels and the epistles? The bahai say that the do, and they tell us plainly everything is grounded in Christ, this Christ who is the Judge, Creator and Power to which all knees will bow (something that will never happen if the bahai religion is true). Without Christ, we don’t have a religion as Christians, so yes my religion is based on a person.

As for the last reference to history, you don’t know a thing your talking about and you betray your ignorance of the sources we actually have. We by no means have exhaustive historical accounts in which to reconstruct every event, nor should we expect us to. But let us apply your logic, the virgin birth, something bahais are embarrassed to believe and despise you would argue is the greatest miracle in history and yet who do we have recording it? That is at least semi realible? Two Gospel writers, Mathew and Luke and by your own standard we can’t really trust their accounts in the first place, we can’t know what they meant to be literal and what they meant to be metaphor so we really have no evidence of the virgin birth. An event which should have been known and recorded by all!

We don’t have many sources when it comes to first century Palestine, other than Josephus, the new testament and a few other references to expect these miracles to be recorded is absurd. It’s the same argument atheists make in trying to deny Jesus existed, that we don’t have every single ancient manuscript from the time mentioning him. Let’s apply more critical lenses. But you ask me to apply courage, and embrace the fairly safe position of a Jesus spiritually raised from the dead. This is the modern scholars opinion and it was the ancient man’s opinion that resurrection was a foolish thing. People did not rise from the dead, yet the apostles proclaimed him risen. This is a subject which in of itself deserves a thread of its own, so if you want to continue this aspect, open another subject or I’ll probably ignore you on this point.

So what have I learnt? I’ve learnt that despite my vehement dissagreements with the bahai, they apparently still consider me one of them, just one in the collective who despite his protestations he does not agree with anything they say can’t really disagree with them.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Actually, the entire world is the receiver of all the divine promises in this Day, not just Baha’is. Whether each of us tenders our cup from the stream of His Grace is up to us. For example, it is very clear to me that Pope Francis is drinking deeply from the cup of the Holy Spirit in this day and passing around that cup to all Catholics as well as everyone else on the planet.

We are – all of us – to build Christ’s promised Kingdom of God, through faith, justice, compassion, and ending war and aggression. That is the call of God, our response to the call is up to us.

So why then do the bahai consistently compare the Christians to the pharisees, that we like the pharisees rejected Jesus? Did the pharisees receive the same grace from the apostles? The same Holy spirit? If we are all participating of the same spirit, nothing lost, nothing to be gained by being bahai, then why does your religion exist in the first place except to divide people? You have all but admitted there is no reason for me to ever become bahai, there is nothing greater in your religion than in mind in your own words.

 

[Matthew_Light]

So why then do the bahai consistently compare the Christians to the pharisees, that we like the pharisees rejected Jesus?

Baha’is are individuals just like people of every other faith. Some Baha’is, just as some of other faiths, see their religion as a reason to judge non-members as lesser or in some way deficient. That is a kind of of tribalistic think we as human beings have to turn to God for help to overcome.

Did the pharisees receive the same grace from the apostles? The same Holy spirit?

Of course the grace came to them. Some rejected it and persecuted and killed Jesus and His followers - but Saul repended and became one of the greatest of all the followers of Christ!

You have all but admitted there is no reason for me to ever become bahai, there is nothing greater in your religion than in mind in your own words.

Christ is perfection. Would that all of us were to become true followers of Him!

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Baha’is are individuals just like people of every other faith. Some Baha’is, just as some of other faiths, see their religion as a reason to judge non-members as lesser or in some way deficient. That is a kind of of tribalistic think we as human beings have to turn to God for help to overcome.

Of course the grace came to them. Some rejected it and persecuted and killed Jesus and His followers - but Saul repended and became one of the greatest of all the followers of Christ!

Christ is perfection. Would that all of us were to become true followers of Him!

You are still all but admitting there is no reason to become bahai.

 

[tonyfish58]

You always make a lot of sense Tonyfish.

Thanks,
Gary

Gary Thank you for your Fellow ship.

It is not I that is the foundation for these thoughts These Principles are of God and if it were not for God calling us to His Words and Faith, we would all be but things forgotten!

We are told in the Baha’i Writings that the Material Universe is but a Reflection of the Perfect Word of God. Thus every Spiritual Truth has a answer that can be found by Meditating on the Material world around us.

When we use this concept and read the Bible a whole new world of meaning jumps out at us.

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[tonyfish58]

Mathew has supplied an answer above to these questions, but as Mathew Said Baha’is may have different opinions as I do on these questions.

So why then do the bahai consistently compare the Christians to the pharisees, that we like the pharisees rejected Jesus? Did the pharisees receive the same grace from the apostles? The same Holy spirit?

To me it is not Like Mathew said above. A lot of Baha’is in no way judge non-members as lesser or in some way deficient, this would be a direct rejection of the principals of the Faith we Stand for.

The example is given to provoke thought on the subject and not to blame or accuse. That is not for man to do. The writings of the Word of God contain all the warning needed, it is those warnings that are passed on out of Love and Fellowship and for no other reason.

Baha’u’llah makes it clear in the Kitab-i-Iquan that the rejection of the Prophets falls on the Shoulder of the Divines that are the spiritual guides of Mankind, for if the Divines did not reject the Prophet all else would also follow.

If we are all participating of the same spirit, nothing lost, nothing to be gained by being bahai, then why does your religion exist in the first place except to divide people?

It boils down to the Principal of Progressive Revelation. This has been discussed on many occasions. God has said I have more to say unto you…God doeth as He willeth!

You have all but admitted there is no reason for me to ever become bahai, there is nothing greater in your religion than in mind in your own words.

Dear Friend, you are free to choose your path and I wish you well on your Journey.

We are here to advise there are different ways of thinking about it and these ways may indeed contain the truth that Mankind urgently needs.

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

All I have is a few comments which do not refute my overall point. You say we are not lesser than you in our religion or spirit, well that’s fine, you’ve all but admitted there’s no reason to become a bahai. Remain an atheist, remain a Jew, Remain a Christian, Remain are Muslim, I mean each is equally true and valid right? Despite the three’s protestations against each other and bahai.

You counter this by proclaiming progressive revelation, yet still even in this it seems like only a technicality. “Well you should really be following this 19th century Persian, but you’re not any worse off than I am, after all we have the same God and spirit and he will not condemn you for not recognising his prophet and in fact rejecting his prophet.”

But that is not the topic of this forum. The topic is why there are different religions. Bahais cannot explain it; they can only explain it away, by saying that someone has corrupted the faith later on while trying to be as politically correct as possible. Bahais cannot show how for instance in the early church was corrupted. You don’t seem to follow through with the logical consequence of that belief and then say we are missing the fundamental truth and it will be against us when we are judged. Instead you want to insist we all really agree with each other, we are all one, why can’t we get along and crave a brave new world for us to enjoy? Well because we’re not One for starters.

The reason why we have different religions, is because mankind in thinking, is not one but thoroughly separate. People have different ideas and these ideas have lead into religions of the most bizarre kind. The cult of the roman emperor, the cult of Dionysus, the Sadducees, Buddhism and the opinions of enlightened 20th century thinkers on Eugenics, communism and the like. All religions do not have their direct inspiration from God; rather most have their inspiration from the mind of man or demons (as far as the Christian is concerned).

Bahai’s can’t dare say that Joseph Smith was a man who was wrong, despite him giving the eternal God a body of flesh and bone and instead avoid the issue. You can’t even condemn the pagans of old as worshiping idols. Bahais have said that they were justified in their religion, in worshiping on the hills of Israel the idols which God abhorred. Do you not see the absurdity in this? No, because one is all and all is one right? A meaningless and incoherent statement.

 

[Servant19]

All I have is a few comments which do not refute my overall point. You say we are not lesser than you in our religion or spirit, well that’s fine, you’ve all but admitted there’s no reason to become a bahai. Remain an atheist, remain a Jew, Remain a Christian, Remain are Muslim, I mean each is equally true and valid right? Despite the three’s protestations against each other and bahai.

You counter this by proclaiming progressive revelation, yet still even in this it seems like only a technicality. “Well you should really be following this 19th century Persian, but you’re not any worse off than I am, after all we have the same God and spirit and he will not condemn you for not recognising his prophet and in fact rejecting his prophet.”

But that is not the topic of this forum. The topic is why there are different religions. Bahais cannot explain it; they can only explain it away, by saying that someone has corrupted the faith later on while trying to be as politically correct as possible. Bahais cannot show how for instance in the early church was corrupted. You don’t seem to follow through with the logical consequence of that belief and then say we are missing the fundamental truth and it will be against us when we are judged. Instead you want to insist we all really agree with each other, we are all one, why can’t we get along and crave a brave new world for us to enjoy? Well because we’re not One for starters.

The reason why we have different religions, is because mankind in thinking, is not one but thoroughly separate. People have different ideas and these ideas have lead into religions of the most bizarre kind. The cult of the roman emperor, the cult of Dionysus, the Sadducees, Buddhism and the opinions of enlightened 20th century thinkers on Eugenics, communism and the like. All religions do not have their direct inspiration from God; rather most have their inspiration from the mind of man or demons (as far as the Christian is concerned).

Bahai’s can’t dare say that Joseph Smith was a man who was wrong, despite him giving the eternal God a body of flesh and bone and instead avoid the issue. You can’t even condemn the pagans of old as worshiping idols. Bahais have said that they were justified in their religion, in worshiping on the hills of Israel the idols which God abhorred. Do you not see the absurdity in this? No, because one is all and all is one right? A meaningless and incoherent statement.

Unity trumps Truth every day of the week!



.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Unity trumps Truth every day of the week!



.

Better to be like the ancient Jews and Romans and Greeks against the teachings of Jesus and those who died for them right?

Are you being serious or facetious? Its hard to tell.

 

[Servant19]

Better to be like the ancient Jews and Romans and Greeks against the teachings of Jesus and those who died for them right?

Are you being serious or facetious? Its hard to tell.

No I am not trying to be facetious dear friend

I’m purely saying that when the search for truth results in an outcome that segregates those who are earnestly searching for God, and derides and oppresses them (whether in word OR deed), then that truth is not truth

REAL Truth unites, for it is rational, does not contradict emprical reality and edifies the soul.

If any dialogue doesn’t meet any of these requirements, then I would rather put my arm around you and say, “lets be friends”

.

 

[Matthew_Light]

Bahais cannot show how for instance in the early church was corrupted.

What would be the value of believers in the unity of humanity going around and spreading disunity and animosity by attacking others beliefs?

Baha’is are imperfect, like everyone else, and make mistakes and errors in judgment. But to go around trashing other people’s religions - any Baha’i who acts like that is (in my view) gravely mistaken.

 

[PJF0808]

Real Truth does unite if is accepted!! Servant19 dont forget God gave us free will to reject the truth. Some people refuse to believe or are tricked into not recognising it. Christ is Truth, every other religion or denomination other than Roman Catholic detracts from the purest sense of the truth.

 

[daler]

What would be the value of believers in the unity of humanity going around and spreading disunity and animosity by attacking others beliefs?
.

. A friend of mine back in Pennsylvania recalled from her childhood some words of wisdom given to her by her grandmother in answer to questions about the world around her. “Grandma. Why are there so many churches when we all worship the same God?”

. “You see, child, people become thirsty. Each has a different cup with which they seek to satisfy their thirst. So they take their empty cup down to the river in order to draw forth some water to quench it. But once they approach the river, they find others squabbling over the various cups held, as beliefs, by the thirsty ones.”

. “You can’t use that cup!” the first one says. “You must use one like mine!”

. “Your cup is no good!” another proclaims. “Why, anyone can see that my cup, and mine alone, is the only way to draw water from the river.”

. “But why are there so many cups, Grandma?”

. “You see, child, people all come from different places, have different ways and cultures, beliefs and traditions. Their own particular cup was handed to them as children, and to their parents, when they were children, and their grandparents, too, when they were young. It has served their family well over the ages and they’ve become quite accustomed to it. Yet each cup has but one and the same purpose: to draw forth the water of life from the river of truth to satisfy their thirst for knowledge and spiritual nourishment, something we all need.”

. “Then why do some people insist that theirs is the only right cup, Grandma, when their neighbor’s thirst has obviously been satisfied the same as their own?”

. “Very good, child! You see, some people develop prejudices and, like small children, they think they’re special. They think that they are the chosen ones and that only they possess the true cup. They fail to recognize that the Creator of the River, and themselves, has also provided cups in many different forms for the various peoples of the world with which to quench their thirst.”

. “But if the cup someone has doesn’t hold water, then they will remain thirsty, won’t they, Grandma?”

. “Very good, child. I am pleased that you understand this. Understand also that if one’s cup is indeed old and leaky, or just too small for the person holding it, they will eventually notice their thirst getting stronger, and will seek out a new cup, sufficient for drawing water to suffice their greater thirst in the new day.”

"So what you are saying, Grandmother, is that sometimes cups do get old, may leak, or perhaps are simply too small to hold enough water as we grow bigger, right?"

. “Yes, my child, that is precisely right. But all have the capacity to return to the river whenever they become thirsty and, according to their own will, seek out a new cup when the first one they’ve been handed gets too old or no longer holds enough water to satisfy their need. Therefore, you should never insist that yours is the only right cup, or that all others must use the same kind of cup. It isn’t the cup that counts so much as the purity of heart, and the conscious desire of each one who truly wants to satisfy their thirst with the pure water. In the end, it is the seeking which counts the most.”

.

 

[Matthew_Light]

You don’t seem to follow through with the logical consequence of that belief and then say we are missing the fundamental truth and it will be against us when we are judged.

I personally am of the opinion that we judge ourselves after death, in the presence of God. We see the merit and value of our decisions, and know when we have been a servant of Christ, and when we have been a servant of our own selves.

That’s what people who have near death experiences relate: they are shown a replay of their entire lives, often with immediate perception the results of each of their decisions on others and even the feelings of those other people, positive and negative. But the judgment comes from their own perception of approval or dismay at the kind of person they have been, and who they have become in their lives. This corresponds nicely with Matthew 7:1-2

"JUDGE not, that you may not be judged,

For with what judgment you judge, you shall be judged: and with what measure you mete, it shall be measured to you again."

 

[TruthBearer]

“There is only contradiction if that is want you want to find!”

I agree with this.

For a Christians, there are no contradictions within its own tradition and faith. Yet those who do not believe as Christians do, see many contradictions.

Jews, see the New Testament contradicting the Old Testament, yet Christians do not find contradictions between the two.

This is to say, from one perspective, one can see contradictions, from another perspective there are no contradictions.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

I agree with this.

For a Christians, there are no contradictions within its own tradition and faith. Yet those who do not believe as Christians do, see many contradictions.

Jews, see the New Testament contradicting the Old Testament, yet Christians do not find contradictions between the two.

This is to say, from one perspective, one can see contradictions, from another perspective there are no contradictions.

That can be debated, that can be handled. We at least both us, Jews and Christians know one of us is wrong. Baha’i do not seem to think anyone wrong, as with their reluctance to say we are wrong. For instance, servant said that truth unites, he also said unity is above truth (immediately backsliding upon realizing the implications of those words). Truth however does not unite according to Jesus, rather it divides, he was truth come into the wolrd and he did not come to unite us, he came to divide the sheep and the goats. The bahai way of thinking denies there is a thing as the damned, the unsaved, the goats. It is anti-antithetical to the revelation of Jesus Christ.

That being said, no bahai has yet offered a better explanation for different religions than the others on this board. As I said before, you merely do away with the suggestion, ignoring there are differing and contradicting view points. It is so hard for you to accept that Christians are idolaters and the worst of creatures (via the accusation of the quran).

At this point I think its obvious that bahais cannot handle reality. They have to reinvent words and give them different meanings knowing full well what the speaker intends by them and then pretend to agree with the speaker. This is all you can do.