Why do all these Stigmatist events only happen in this one Church?

[Bluegoat]

Well, the documented ones only happen in this denomination (Catholicism). “Mental” Stigmata happens to some protestants, but not documented physical Stigmata. I do believe a Sedevacantist “Pope” has physical Stigmata but has been accused, though not proven, of self-harm.

No, actually, that isn’t true. There have been documented cases of stigmata outside of the Catholic Church, and by documented I mean by the CC, and by scientific observers.

It isn’t surprising really. We know that some people in certain states like hypnosis, or similar to hypnosis, can, if they visualize things happening to them, actually come to bear the marks of whatever happens in the visualizations. So, if you ask a susceptible person who is in such a state to visualize being beaten, they can begin to show spontaneously appearing marks corresponding to the beating they visualize. No one knows how this works. There are specific personality types who are likely to be affected in this way.

Interestingly, many stigmatics have actually corresponded to this type of personality profile. And what I think is more interesting is that while Western Christianity tends to encourage forms of prayer that include visualization, especially of a crucified Christ, Eastern Christianity actually discourages visualization during prayer.

 

[DavidKays]

David,

What is the gift of Transfiguration? What happens to a potential saint with this gift? Is there a canonization procedure similar to the Catholic Church? As you may be aware, a candidate for sainthood has to have passed away 5 years before even the process to canonization is started.

Hi Pablope! Thank you for your question. The Orthodox Church have a different way of canonization than the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church has high standards for a candidate to become a Saint and you can correct me on this but I believe you need 2 first class miracles so that the candidate can be declared a Saint. The Orthodox while maintaining the heoric virtues of Her Saints does not require visible proofs like a first class miracle to verify the sanctity of Her Saints. An example of this is St.Elizabeth of Russia. Elizabeth was a princess of the German court a grand-daughter of Queen Victoria. She was a lutheran and growing up she met alot of suitors but the one who impressed her alot was a russian prince who was her distant cousin and he was russian orthodox. Eventually they married and she converted to the Orthodox faith. She was very much involve in the Church and to make a long story short after the assasination of her husband she become a nun and gave her wealth to the building of hospitals and monesteries and convents. Shortly after the Communists took over Russia the authorities arrested her and in a mineshaft they threw her down so they can put grenades in to kill her. Suprisingly the soldiers heard her singing to God while all the time she was in the mineshaft. Afterwards the people took her body and transport it east. Months later they open the coffin to find an incorrupt body. Soon later the Russian Orthodox Church canonized her with the name St.Elizabeth of Russia. This means that the faithful can have recourse to her and the Church will celebrate her on her special feastday that the Church has chosen for her. Like the Catholics many Orthodox have recourse to their Saints and have received countless favors. The gift to which I was talking about is not only given to the Orthodox but to Catholics as well. Transfiguration is that moment when Jesus was transformed to fully show His Divinty when on the mountain He was conversing with Elijah and Moses with 3 of the apostles present. Shown with brilliant Light Our Lord was shining like the Sun. To receive this gift all it takes is the reception of the Holy Spirit to grow within you. St.Seraphim of Russia wrote that the aim of the Christian life is the acquisition of the Holy Spirit. And like Jesus who on the mountain was Transfigured, the face of St.Seraphim was also shining with the brilliance of the Holy Spirit within him. It is possible for every Christian to obtain the Holy Spirit so as to be Transfigured says the Saint. The process of deification to which Orthodoxy teaches can be a welcome invitation towards Transfiguration and many Orthodox Saints have testify and witness to this. I am hopeful that our Catholic brethren will learn it also so that they can also benefit from it. To tell you the truth the Eastern way and the Catholic way can be so intergrated so that a person within each Church can grow into great sanctity through suffering and through enlightment. Many today are experiencing both and God is truly building up His Saints because of it.

 

[braidwood]

Would you mind giving a couple specific and documented examples, please?

Since you are looking for examples, rather than me list a few, you may care to Google “documented miracle healings” where you will find thousands of examples, within and outwith the Catholic Church.
Mike

 

[PJM]

=Pieman333272;7299205]Well, the documented ones only happen in this denomination (Catholicism). “Mental” Stigmata happens to some protestants, but not documented physical Stigmata. I do believe a Sedevacantist “Pope” has physical Stigmata but has been accused, though not proven, of self-harm.

Friend, I have never before heard the term “Mental Stigmata,”; [Perchanei s this a reference to John of the Corss’s "**Dark Night of the Soul?"

God Bless,

 

[pablope]

Hi Pablope! Thank you for your question. The Orthodox Church have a different way of canonization than the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church has high standards for a candidate to become a Saint and you can correct me on this but I believe you need 2 first class miracles so that the candidate can be declared a Saint. The Orthodox while maintaining the heoric virtues of Her Saints does not require visible proofs like a first class miracle to verify the sanctity of Her Saints. An example of this is St.Elizabeth of Russia. Elizabeth was a princess of the German court a grand-daughter of Queen Victoria…Like the Catholics many Orthodox have recourse to their Saints and have received countless favors. The gift to which I was talking about is not only given to the Orthodox but to Catholics as well. Transfiguration is that moment when Jesus was transformed to fully show His Divinty when on the mountain He was conversing with Elijah and Moses with 3 of the apostles present. Shown with brilliant Light Our Lord was shining like the Sun. To receive this gift all it takes is the reception of the Holy Spirit to grow within you. St.Seraphim of Russia wrote that the aim of the Christian life is the acquisition of the Holy Spirit. And like Jesus who on the mountain was Transfigured, the face of St.Seraphim was also shining with the brilliance of the Holy Spirit within him. It is possible for every Christian to obtain the Holy Spirit so as to be Transfigured says the Saint. …tness to this. I am hopeful that our Catholic brethren will learn it also so that they can also benefit from it. To tell you the truth the Eastern way and the Catholic way can be so intergrated so that a person within each Church can grow into great sanctity through suffering and through enlightment. Many today are experiencing both and God is truly building up His Saints because of it.

Thanks for your reply David…I was not sure how the gift of Transfiguration occurred in the Saints, so thanks for the enlightenment.

In the RC, a candidate, after much investigation, is first declared Venerable, a prayer is composed where devotees can start asking for the candidate’s intercession. After 2 proven miracles, the candidate is canonized Blessed, then an additional 2 miracles are required before the final Canonization to become a saint. If the candidate is a proven to be a martyr, the Venerable process is bypassed and becomes Blessed right away.

*To tell you the truth the Eastern way and the Catholic way can be so intergrated so that a person within each Church can grow into great sanctity through suffering and through enlightment.
*

I totally agree with your statement. There is so much in our two faiths, that we could only benefit. We can keep hoping and praying for that unity to come and I hope, sooner rather than later.

Blessings in Christ…

 

[Pieman333272]

Friend, I have never before heard the term “Mental Stigmata,”; [Perchanei s this a reference to John of the Corss’s "**Dark Night of the Soul?"

God Bless,

Mental Stigmata is what I call feeling the pain of the wounds without them actually appearing as flesh wounds. The most well-known example is Padre Pio, who felt the pain of the wounds a good time before the open wounds appeared.

 

[mark_a]

I continue to be perplexed as to why do only these Stigmatist only happen in this one Church? Of course they are fake?

I haven’t read all the posts and I don’t wish to repeat, but I read somewhere that Muslims get a form of stigmata somehow related to Muhammed instead of Jesus.

 

[mark_a]

Hi Pablope! Thank you for your question. The Orthodox Church have a different way of canonization than the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church has high standards for a candidate to become a Saint and you can correct me on this but I believe you need 2 first class miracles so that the candidate can be declared a Saint. The Orthodox while maintaining the heoric virtues of Her Saints does not require visible proofs like a first class miracle to verify the sanctity of Her Saints. An example of this is St.Elizabeth of Russia. Elizabeth was a princess of the German court a grand-daughter of Queen Victoria. She was a lutheran and growing up she met alot of suitors but the one who impressed her alot was a russian prince who was her distant cousin and he was russian orthodox. Eventually they married and she converted to the Orthodox faith. She was very much involve in the Church and to make a long story short after the assasination of her husband she become a nun and gave her wealth to the building of hospitals and monesteries and convents. Shortly after the Communists took over Russia the authorities arrested her and in a mineshaft they threw her down so they can put grenades in to kill her. Suprisingly the soldiers heard her singing to God while all the time she was in the mineshaft. Afterwards the people took her body and transport it east. Months later they open the coffin to find an incorrupt body. Soon later the Russian Orthodox Church canonized her with the name St.Elizabeth of Russia. This means that the faithful can have recourse to her and the Church will celebrate her on her special feastday that the Church has chosen for her. Like the Catholics many Orthodox have recourse to their Saints and have received countless favors. The gift to which I was talking about is not only given to the Orthodox but to Catholics as well. Transfiguration is that moment when Jesus was transformed to fully show His Divinty when on the mountain He was conversing with Elijah and Moses with 3 of the apostles present. Shown with brilliant Light Our Lord was shining like the Sun. To receive this gift all it takes is the reception of the Holy Spirit to grow within you. St.Seraphim of Russia wrote that the aim of the Christian life is the acquisition of the Holy Spirit. And like Jesus who on the mountain was Transfigured, the face of St.Seraphim was also shining with the brilliance of the Holy Spirit within him. It is possible for every Christian to obtain the Holy Spirit so as to be Transfigured says the Saint. The process of deification to which Orthodoxy teaches can be a welcome invitation towards Transfiguration and many Orthodox Saints have testify and witness to this. I am hopeful that our Catholic brethren will learn it also so that they can also benefit from it. To tell you the truth the Eastern way and the Catholic way can be so intergrated so that a person within each Church can grow into great sanctity through suffering and through enlightment. Many today are experiencing both and God is truly building up His Saints because of it.

Very interesting, Thanks for posting.

 

[Alexander_Roman]

I meant that no genuine and visible miracles like St. Padre Pio’s stigmata or the Miracle of The Sun at Fatima were ever granted to non-Catholic religions. What were your experiences?

But the RC Church has not, as yet, recognized St Padre Pio as a stigmatist. Or has it?

In any event, I don’t understand why stigmata are considered as being so important. The Catholic East has had a few, but the devotional emphasis in the East is on the Resurrected Christ, rather than meditation on His Passion as such.

The Orthodox Church has many saints and miraculous icons effecting thousands of miraculous cures and also miraculous wonders. The myrrh-streaming icons (there is one not too far from where I live), the many Orthodox saints who are incorruptibles etc.

Alex

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Dear Friends,

The suggestion being made here that miracles prove that the Church in which they are experienced must be the true one is a dangerous slope.

For one thing, Catholics who experienced miracles at Orthodox shrines have also converted to Orthodoxy for the same reason (e.g. the painted walls of the Orthodox Lavra of Pochaiv where the shrine of the miraculous Mother of God is illustrates a number of these conversions in response to miracles).

There are even reported miracles at Anglican shrines, Marian and also those of Anglican martyrs e.g. Charles I, the African Martyrs etc.

Alex

 

[Bluegoat]

Dear Friends,

The suggestion being made here that miracles prove that the Church in which they are experienced must be the true one is a dangerous slope.

For one thing, Catholics who experienced miracles at Orthodox shrines have also converted to Orthodoxy for the same reason (e.g. the painted walls of the Orthodox Lavra of Pochaiv where the shrine of the miraculous Mother of God is illustrates a number of these conversions in response to miracles).

There are even reported miracles at Anglican shrines, Marian and also those of Anglican martyrs e.g. Charles I, the African Martyrs etc.

Alex

Not to mention non-Christian miracles.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

That’s simply not true. My Anglican Bishop John-David Schofield of the Diocese of San Joaquin had a powerful Eucharistic encounter with Christ that he speaks of regularly and I have detailed it here at CAF several times. He actually had Jesus walk up to him and touch, bless him, and tell him to take a vow of celibacy that he has maintained for 40 years or so. He had an encounter that, if you read the details, will knock your socks off. Also exorcisms and other phenomenon have occurred with Anglican and Lutheran priests and pastors, etc. Catholicism doesn’t seem to have a locked monopoly on this stuff.

I meant that no genuine and visible miracles like St. Padre Pio’s stigmata or the Miracle of The Sun at Fatima were ever granted to non-Catholic religions. What were your experiences?

 

[mountaintop]

A large crowd followed and pressed around him. 25 And a woman was there who had been subject to bleeding for twelve years. 26 She had suffered a great deal under the care of many doctors and had spent all she had, yet instead of getting better she grew worse. 27 When she heard about Jesus, she came up behind him in the crowd and touched his cloak, 28 because she thought, “If I just touch his clothes, I will be healed.” 29 Immediately her bleeding stopped and she felt in her body that she was freed from her suffering.

miracles happen thru your faith in jesus and the power of the holy spirit, not by the church

 

[Wildkit]

Not to mention non-Christian miracles.

If you could direct me and possibly others to a “non-christian” or Anglican, or Lutheran miracle, I would be most gratefull! I was unaware of any, and given the fakes of all these other events, I continue to remain confused!

 

[Bluegoat]

If you could direct me and possibly others to a “non-christian” or Anglican, or Lutheran miracle, I would be most gratefull! I was unaware of any, and given the fakes of all these other events, I continue to remain confused!

Well, the most well known case of Anglican stigmata was a lady known as Jane Hunt. She was studied quite carefully by doctors and scientists, and they were convinced that it was a real phenomena (whether they thought it was a spiritual thing or not is another question.)

There was also Cloretta Robinson, who was a black Baptist child, who exibited stigmata for a time, I think in the late 70’s or 80’s.

As far as other religions - you could really just do an internet search on what you are interested in. I’m not sure if you want modern examples? Various religious texts all have miraculous material. All religions have examples that I can think of. As far as continuing modern day examples, mystic traditions in particular report some strange things. So for Islam, look at the Sufis, for example, who apparently do neat things like bi-location. I think there are lots of more mundane miracles too, though a Muslim lady I know says they don’t tend to broadcast such things. Hinduism has lots of examples, including reports of flying people and so on.

I’m not clear what you are confused about though?

 

[Crusading_Canuk]

Ok, how do you show Faith in Jesus, by praising who you think Jesus was (in a heretical denomination) or being part of His One Holy Church?

 

[Crusading_Canuk]

Not to mention non-Christian miracles.

Right I forgot how many “miracles” come from devil worship. No doubt it’s miraculis when a witch performs magicks and she lays a curse. Non Christian “miracles” are really magick which are a supernatural force which come from guess who… satan and his demons. In other words they are not miracles as miracles only come from God!

 

[Bluegoat]

Right I forgot how many “miracles” come from devil worship. No doubt it’s miraculis when a witch performs magicks and she lays a curse. Non Christian “miracles” are really magick which are a supernatural force which come from guess who… satan and his demons. In other words they are not miracles as miracles only come from God!

Who can say. If this is true, one could certainly not use miracles as evidence of anything (truth of Catholicism, or faith, or whatever.) After all, miracles from this POV could be equally evidence of God’s work, or the Devil’s. In which case, it is probably best just to ignore them.

 

[Pieman333272]

Who can say. If this is true, one could certainly not use miracles as evidence of anything (truth of Catholicism, or faith, or whatever.) After all, miracles from this POV could be equally evidence of God’s work, or the Devil’s. In which case, it is probably best just to ignore them.

Well, no, not really, especially when debating atheists. Take the Miracle of the Sun. Maybe it won’t convince Jack Chick, who will think Lucifer did it, or the Himalayan Hindu Mystic (hereby HHM), who may declare it, if proven, to be by one of virtually any of the good or evil spirits of his polytheistic roster.

But if you’re debating, say, Richard Dawkins, who says there are no more modern day miracles which can’t be explained, if you hit him with that (with enough evidence to justify), he’d HAVE to admit, SOMETHING supernatural happened there. He may then hit you with a strawman and ask you to prove it wasn’t Mani’s heavenly form who did it, but either way, you just made him admit something beyond natural explanation occurred at Fatima on that day (can’t remember off the top of my head). So, yes, to an extent, Miracles of a particular denomination or religion or person’s -oligy can justify that faith.

 

[Bluegoat]

Well, no, not really, especially when debating atheists. Take the Miracle of the Sun. Maybe it won’t convince Jack Chick, who will think Lucifer did it, or the Himalayan Hindu Mystic (hereby HHM), who may declare it, if proven, to be by one of virtually any of the good or evil spirits of his polytheistic roster.

But if you’re debating, say, Richard Dawkins, who says there are no more modern day miracles which can’t be explained, if you hit him with that (with enough evidence to justify), he’d HAVE to admit, SOMETHING supernatural happened there. He may then hit you with a strawman and ask you to prove it wasn’t Mani’s heavenly form who did it, but either way, you just made him admit something beyond natural explanation occurred at Fatima on that day (can’t remember off the top of my head). So, yes, to an extent, Miracles of a particular denomination or religion or person’s -oligy can justify that faith.

The post I was responding to said that miracles that happen in non-Christian religions come from Satan. If that is so, miracles are not good evidence that God isupports a particular religious group. It would also be dishonest to argue miracles show that one church is correct knowing that they could theoretically come from a source other than God. And how would you prove that your church has the good miracles, while the other ones have the Satanic miracles?

I suppose you could use them as evidence of the supernatural in general, but I think they are unlikely to be convincing. There are many unexplained things that are not miracles, and being unexplained, it would be pretty difficult to prove such an incident was a miracle and not just an unexplained event. And I think it is in the nature of miracles that they tend to convince those they touch directly - they are not so convincing second-hand.