Why do Anglicans think they are Catholic?

[SpiritMeadow]

Evidence?

Evidence? Just 'cause some people wish for something to change, doesn’t mean it is. I don’t know why it would need to be changed to begin with.

Really, the only reason I use it is because the issue is not priests in general, but specifically female clergywomen.

Not true. People will assume you are talking of a male if you say “actor”. Using the word “actor” for an actress seems awkward and unusual, and I’ve never really heard anyone use it that way before.

I will understand if someone will tell me how it’s rude. As of yet, people have just said, “oh, this and this is going out of vogue,” et cetera (which they still haven’t proven) and haven’t given a real reason yet why it is “rude”.

Because of this I am going to avoid the whole issue and just say “clergywomen”. Really, though, I don’t see what all these linguistic gymnastics’re all about…

Thank YOU! I understand your desire for proof, but really you perhaps don’t watch tv much or something. Many many women actors refer to themselves as actors and so do their interviewers. But that is beside the point. The reasoning may not exist as you wish it to. For instance. I don’t know that a factual case can be made out that the term “colored” person is offensive on its face. But it is felt to be offensive by African Americans. That is enough for us, as “white” people to not use the term. We don’t need proof it is offensive. That is to some extent subjective and not subject to empirical proof. But again, thank you sincerely for changing your word usage.

 

[Matariel]

Thank YOU!

You’re welcome.

 

[Peter_J]

I’m just saying it helps to use the official, or de facto official, wording in civil conversation.

I take, then, that you have no problem referring to the RCC as “the Catholic Church”.

From en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_Church (emphasis added):

The Roman Catholic Church, officially known as the Catholic Church[note 1] is the world’s largest Christian church, representing over half of all Christians and one-sixth of the world’s population.[6][7]

 

[grampben]

I take, then, that you have no problem referring to the RCC as “the Catholic Church”.

From en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_Church (emphasis added):

Of course not!

 

[PJM]

Originally Posted by Usbek de Perse
As a moderately high church Episcopalian, let me first answer the question of why Anglicans consider themselves catholic. Please note the lower-case “c”. First of all, we consider ourselves part of the “holy catholic church”, or “one holy and apostolic church” since those words have been part of our creeds since the time of Thomas Cranmer. We believe there is one holy catholic church, and I am certain that you would not question orthodox churches who call themselves “catholic”. Secondly, as for me and many Anglicans, we consider ourselves catholic in that we believe in seven sacraments as means of grace, we believe in the real presence of Christ in the Holy Eucharist, and we believe in one united Christendom as ultimately one church.

I, for one, recognize the primacy of the Bishop of Rome as primer inter pares. It’s just that I would prefer to see a bit more inter pares and a little less primer.

I find purgatory one of the easiest doctrines to accept.

There are some Anglicans who are called Anglo Papist. They are usually in England and are in the Church of England. They believe everything the Roman Catholic Church teaches with the sole exception of the teaching on the invalidity of Anglican orders.

**My dear friend in Christ, **

Your post is beautiful and I sincerly thank you for it.:tiphat:

You are obviously bright and well informed, and I pray you will not take personal offence to what I feel I must share. This a Catholic Forum, and one should expect the Catholic Position to be brought into the conversation.

Everything you shared is well and good. But there are two issues that you missed.

Both Pope JP II and Pope Benedict XVI found it necessary to often speak about what truth is, and what truth cannot be.

For example, Pope Benedict in his acceptance homily, itmediately following His acceptance of the Office of the Papacy, had this to say about truth.

“Their cannot be your truth and my truth, or their would be no truth.”

Jp II in his Encyclical Letter, Gospel of Truth, explains that one need not accept, recogonize or believe in the truth; yet it remains the truth. He also shares that on any specific issue their can be only One Truth.

From this platform, I would point out that there is no evidence that I am aware of, other then the opinion you so well articulated, that your Church has direct and unbroken connection to the Apostles. This is key, even essential, for the Sacraments to be Valid and Licit. Without this connection, your sacraments are NOT the same source of Grace that Catholics enjoy

Certainly your church is closer in Philosophy and Theology, than other churches, but to say you are “Catholic” in the common sense, commonly understood meaning of the word as it applies to a “fully shared communion of common and belief and practice” is a misnomer. Not a proper understanding.

I pray for the day when we are fully joined again because it is God’s Will. Let us pray that it will be soon.

Love and prayers my friend.

 

[Peter_J]

Of course not!

:ehh: Fascinating. So you admit that you and your fellow Anglicans aren’t “Catholic”?

 

[GKC]

:ehh: Fascinating. So you admit that you and your fellow Anglicans aren’t “Catholic”?

It’s not hard to find an Anglican who will say that. And, unfortunately, it’s increasingly less hard to find those of whom it is true.

GKC

Anglicanus Catholicus

 

[ICA04]

It’s not hard to find an Anglican who will say that. And, unfortunately, it’s increasingly less hard to find those of whom it is true.

GKC

Anglicanus Catholicus

I am not particularly fond of the way you seem to effortlessly throw your fellow Anglicans under the bus. It is true that with many parishes freshly coming out of the Episcopal church that the more Protestant things seem to be the most visible in many of those Anglicans. But, that certainly does not trump the fact that those folks still profess their faith by sayng the Nicene Creed, share in the body and blood of Christ EVERY Sunday and recognize their unbroken union within the communion of saints. Anglicans are every bit as catholic as Roman Catholics, Orthodox Christians and Lutherans.

 

[Peter_J]

I am not particularly fond of the way you seem to effortlessly throw your fellow Anglicans under the bus. It is true that with many parishes freshly coming out of the Episcopal church that the more Protestant things seem to be the most visible in many of those Anglicans. But, that certainly does not trump the fact that those folks still profess their faith by sayng the Nicene Creed, share in the body and blood of Christ EVERY Sunday and recognize their unbroken union within the communion of saints. Anglicans are every bit as catholic as Roman Catholics, Orthodox Christians and Lutherans.

With all due respect, my impression is that there are a lot of conservative Anglicans in the world, but (mostly) they’re conservative in a Protestant way, not in a Catholic way.

 

[GKC]

I am not particularly fond of the way you seem to effortlessly throw your fellow Anglicans under the bus. It is true that with many parishes freshly coming out of the Episcopal church that the more Protestant things seem to be the most visible in many of those Anglicans. But, that certainly does not trump the fact that those folks still profess their faith by sayng the Nicene Creed, share in the body and blood of Christ EVERY Sunday and recognize their unbroken union within the communion of saints. Anglicans are every bit as catholic as Roman Catholics, Orthodox Christians and Lutherans.

I’m not particularly fond of many Anglicans. But I do like your last sentence.

The drain out of official Anglicanism over the last 30 years, into the Continuum, to Rome, or Eastward, has been primarily of the Anglo-Catholic oriented Anglicans, of a traditional mindset. It follows naturally that the remnants now departing, unable, finally, to remain, are more predominantly of the reformed side of the Elizabethan Compromise. It is not these that I am particularly unhappy with. It’s what drove them, finally, to leave, that disturbs me. Such are not, in any sense, my fellows.

And to discuss whether anyone shares in the Body and Blood requires a consensus on where and how these things may be found. Not a simple thing to do, and harder now then 20+ years ago.

And nothing about being a traditional Anglican is effortless these days, I fear.

GKC

 

[GKC]

With all due respect, my impression is that there are a lot of conservative Anglicans in the world, but (mostly) they’re conservative in a Protestant way, not in a Catholic way.

True.

GKC

 

[ASimpleSinner]

Their priesthood **has been nullified by the Papal Bull of 1896 **and much of the reason is over the form of ordination used very early in the 16th century, as will as the Church of England’s rather spotty teaching on the Eucharist.

(emphasis mine)

Not to be semantic, but it is more accurate to say that Apostolicae Curae ruled on the matter of Anglican orders, but it was not the bull that made them null and void… It was the history and action of the Anglican reformers that made them - according to our Catholic thinking - null and void as valid sacramental orders.

 

[GKC]

(emphasis mine)

Not to be semantic, but it is more accurate to say that Apostolicae Curae ruled on the matter of Anglican orders, but it was not the bull that made them null and void… It was the history and action of the Anglican reformers that made them - according to our Catholic thinking - null and void as valid sacramental orders.

Which I pointed out, with a little detail. Always good to be reinforced.

GKC

 

[trinitybeliever]

Well said, and furthermore, you cannot hope to change a mind that you start out by insulting. If a person wishes to be called X, then call them that. Perhaps they will in their gratitude actually listen to what you are saying. Of course I would assume all RC’s which to convince others that they are right about Catholicism.erhaps I am in error.

Hello SpiritMeadow; While you are on the subject, I would like to say I wish to be called Catholic not Roman Catholic as you refer to me. I prefer that you refer to my Church as the Catholic Church (CC) instead of the RCC. Am I being over sensitive, or do you use the distinction of “Roman” as a bit of a pejorative?
When I go to mass at my Parish, the Sign in front does not say “Roman Catholic”.
Just plain old “Catholic”. So in my world view, I have always identified as Catholic. Ultimately, you and others can call me and all Catholics whatever you want. You can and do refer to our Holy Church, Teachings and Traditions in whatever terms you want, charitable or not. It will not change the nature of the Church or salvation. It would certainly help Catholics to understand you more charitably if you would follow your own logic.

 

[PJM]

I guess my question is always, why are some RCC so obsessed with this? Why are you infuriated? That others profess and believe many of the things you do? You would rather they didnt? I’m used to children being overly possessive of their “things” but first it was creeds, now, its what names are used? I just don’t get it.

My dear friend in Christ,

I am totally in agreement with yiur opening question.

Why indeed:blush:

We are so close, and yet so far apart. Belief in the seven Sacraments shows proper biblical understanding, and a respect for the sacred.

However, Catholic Sacraments continue to be a sourc of grace that, at ;east at present, yours are not, due to the validity of direct Apolostolic Succession, that you still lack.

It is our prayer, that it will not remain so much longer.

As Pope JP II explained: 'It’s not that the RCC will not Ordain Women Priest, rather it is that "SheCannot Ordain Women Priest. Two highly signifiant reasons were provided. The Sacramental Nature of the sacrament, and the fact that all of the Sacraments were instituted by Christ Himself and therefore cannot be changed, and the issue of physiology. At Eucharist, the Priest acts in the very Peron of Jesus Himself… male gender, with historical evidence of same. A person who is NOT “male gender” cannot pronounce the Words of Christ: This is My Body…This Is My Blood" with the same results.

So it is an issue of CANNOT, NOT WILLNOT!

Unity is not served by such a lack of Theological Understanding.

May God grant us unity soon!

 

[GKC]

My dear friend in Christ,

I am totally in agreement with yiur opening question.

Why indeed:blush:

We are so close, and yet so far apart. Belief in the seven Sacraments shows proper biblical understanding, and a respect for the sacred.

However, Catholic Sacraments continue to be a sourc of grace that, at ;east at present, yours are not, due to the validity of direct Apolostolic Succession, that you still lack.

It is our prayer, that it will not remain so much longer.

As Pope JP II explained: 'It’s not that the RCC will not Ordain Women Priest, rather it is that "SheCannot Ordain Women Priest. Two highly signifiant reasons were provided. The Sacramental Nature of the sacrament, and the fact that all of the Sacraments were instituted by Christ Himself and therefore cannot be changed, and the issue of physiology. At Eucharist, the Priest acts in the very Peron of Jesus Himself… male gender, with historical evidence of same. A person who is NOT “male gender” cannot pronounce the Words of Christ: This is My Body…This Is My Blood" with the same results.

So it is an issue of CANNOT, NOT WILLNOT!

Unity is not served by such a lack of Theological Understanding.

May God grant us unity soon!

While this is not addressed to me, I will intrude to make some of my pro forma comments. It happens often thus.

The judgment of RCC, in Apostolicae Curae, is one that all RCs should affirm, at least as *sententia ad fidem pertinens *. You will understand that Anglicans have a different view of the matter (so to speak). The history of that Bull, its origin, and the politics, theology and personalities involved (a hobby of mine) is a sad story of missed opportunities.

Ordinatio Sacerdotalis is a fair summary of the historical position of the Church, on the matter of the matter of Orders, ab initio.

Sometimes there is misunderstanding, sometimes there is disagreement, sometimes there between concurrence with us. Which it is depends on which Anglican you speak to, on which subject.

Pax, frater

GKC

*Anglicanus-Catholicus *

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Hello SpiritMeadow; While you are on the subject, I would like to say I wish to be called Catholic not Roman Catholic as you refer to me. I prefer that you refer to my Church as the Catholic Church (CC) instead of the RCC. Am I being over sensitive, or do you use the distinction of “Roman” as a bit of a pejorative?
When I go to mass at my Parish, the Sign in front does not say “Roman Catholic”.
Just plain old “Catholic”. So in my world view, I have always identified as Catholic. Ultimately, you and others can call me and all Catholics whatever you want. You can and do refer to our Holy Church, Teachings and Traditions in whatever terms you want, charitable or not. It will not change the nature of the Church or salvation. It would certainly help Catholics to understand you more charitably if you would follow your own logic.

I would have no issue with that but for the fact that as a new about to become RC, I was taught, (and with great pride by the way) that “we were Roman Catholic.” Why, because there is the EO, and at least two other Catholic Churches in the US alone who profess to be the “THE Catholic church.” Sister was most distinct in advising us we should proudly proclaim that we followed the Roman Catholic Church, so no one would be the least confused.

I use the RCC appelation, frankly so an not have to type out, “the one that follows the Roman Pope” to make sure I’m understood as not referring to any other. I use the world catholic church to refer to universal church, uncapitalized. Apparently it’s not correct her to refer to the dictionary but if you look it up that is what you will find.

catholic church: pertaining to the whole christian body of church
Catholic church: pertaining to the Roman Catholic church, or to all the modern orthodox churches that have kept the apostolic succession. (note it does not say–which Rome has determined have kept the apostolic succession)

Catholicism: The worldwide unity in belief and conduct frequently indentified with the Roman Catholic Church AND claimed by Anglicans and Orthodox.(A concise dictionary of theology) authors Gerald O’Collins SJ and Edward G. Farrugia, SJ.

So if you wish to use the appelation CC, it appears you include all of us too. Fine by me!

 

[SpiritMeadow]

My dear friend in Christ,

I am totally in agreement with yiur opening question.

Why indeed:blush:

We are so close, and yet so far apart. Belief in the seven Sacraments shows proper biblical understanding, and a respect for the sacred.

However, Catholic Sacraments continue to be a sourc of grace that, at ;east at present, yours are not, due to the validity of direct Apolostolic Succession, that you still lack.

It is our prayer, that it will not remain so much longer.

As Pope JP II explained: 'It’s not that the RCC will not Ordain Women Priest, rather it is that "SheCannot Ordain Women Priest. Two highly signifiant reasons were provided. The Sacramental Nature of the sacrament, and the fact that all of the Sacraments were instituted by Christ Himself and therefore cannot be changed, and the issue of physiology. At Eucharist, the Priest acts in the very Peron of Jesus Himself… male gender, with historical evidence of same. A person who is NOT “male gender” cannot pronounce the Words of Christ: This is My Body…This Is My Blood" with the same results.

So it is an issue of CANNOT, NOT WILLNOT!

Unity is not served by such a lack of Theological Understanding.

May God grant us unity soon!

greetings.

I am well aware of what your faith teaches on these issues. We simply do not agree with your church’s interpretation. We have the seven sacraments and we don’t agree that our apostolic succession has been broken, certainly because your church claims this. It’s not difficult. I am well aware of what JPII’s reasoning was on women’s ordination. Quite obviously millions don’t agree with it. And we are not pushing you to engage it it. We believe most firmly that there is more than sufficient biblical evidence and tradition to support women’s having preaching and teaching roles in the church.

You are quite right that unity is not served by lack of theological understanding. But theological understanding does not begin and end with Rome just because you believe it does. Millions, or should I say billions do not.

May we all be able to do what our leaders do better than we as laypersons seem capable of, be cordial and respectful of each other’s beliefs.

 

[Matariel]

We believe most firmly that there is more than sufficient biblical evidence and tradition to support women’s having preaching and teaching roles in the church.

With respect, there is a difference between teaching and preaching rôles and the sacerdotal and sacramental function.

Because Christ did not breathe on any women as he did to the Apostles (thus conferring sacramental authority) and because of the universal 2,000-year practice within the Church of not ordaining women, the Church has no authority whatsoever to ordain women. No doubt the greatest woman of all, the Mother of God, would’ve been a perfect candidate to become a… clergywoman… if Christ had so desired. There was, however, an unordained order of deaconesses, but this had fallen into disuse, and was superceded by nuns and sisters.

No offense, just giving the Catholic side of things.

 

[ICA04]

With all due respect, my impression is that there are a lot of conservative Anglicans in the world, but (mostly) they’re conservative in a Protestant way, not in a Catholic way.

I don’t share much clarity in your impression. The topic here is catholic, not Catholic. Any Anglican I know of does not affiliate him or herself to the Catholic church but does consider themselves catholic as well they should. Call that Protestant if you wish but it has little latitude with me or the vast majority of Anglicans I’m sure.