Why do Anglicans think they are Catholic?

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Jim and Edwin, my brothers in Christ, thank you for your honesty.
For myself, you’re welcome.

Please understand that a few points in LFD’s posts I can agree with. That is also being honest.

And Contarini is known for two things: his depth of knowledge and his honesty. In my experience.

And no furball required, yet. It appears all is going to be well. But isn’t, until I actually get the papers I need.

GKC
 
I might have mentioned earlier that I am no theologian. Somebody pleeeaaaase help me to understand the following things.
  1. Was the name RCC known before 1054?
The way I see it is that the RCC is like a parent who lost a child and is not getting over it. How else do you explain thier acceptance of the other churches/ while ignoring the modern protestant movements, and their obsessoins with the Anglican church?
In the beginning the early Christians were quite often refered to as the Church of God, as in the Church of God at Corinth! ([vs 10,Corinth.[.later The Churches were organised in to larger groups and took the name of some powerful section. In Britain it was the political tribe or race,i.e. The Celtic Church or the English or Anglican one. With Rome,the capital City of the Empire and the powers given by the Emperor to rule the Suburbicarian diocese
that is, diocese originally in the suburbs that surround Rome,later this was extended to cover all southern Italy and the island. All these took the name Roman. Thus at some time early they were known as the Roman or Roman Catholic Church.

There’s no doubt that the power of Rome grew and its authority spread all over Western Europe. Yet that authority came from either the State or the Church, Rome had no authority other than what was given from Christ’s Revelation, Scripture and Consensus.
This was possessed by all other bishops and patriarchs and was of apostolic origin.

That didn’t stop the papacy from trying however! Success,of a kind came with the Donation of Constantine and other forgeries.

By the 15th, Century, there was a trend to restore the traditional authority and curb the magisterium of the pope. This was tried through the means of the Councils and even succeeded in reducing the number of popes from 3 to 1. Sir Thomas More , wrote to Cromwell, 5th, March 1534,

" As for the General Councils assembled lawfully… the authority thereof ought to be taken for undoubtable, or else there in,nothing no certainty …For albeit that I have for mine own part such opinions of the popes primacy as I showed you , yet never thought I the pope above the general council."

By the 16th, Cent calls for a general council became shrill from both clergy and laity, eventually one was called at TrentVery few attended, no one trusted the organisers, the Papacy! The pope had recourse to denuding his own Roman Church of Bishops by sending his own Suburbicarian ones and offering them money,‘to cover their expenses’!
After packing it as far as he could ,it was then he called upon his organising clique to forbid any discussion of the papacy and to vet anyone who the pope disapproved of, near the end they did not allow the bishops there to mix openly putting them in groups to discuss certain subjects and they were not allowed to discuss with other groups or in the main hall. Finally they were ordered to refer final acceptance to the papacy.The delegates were not allowed to vote acceptance on their own.

In Britain the pope issued a fatwa against Elizabeth and tried to change the Government by means of civil war and a Spanish Invasion. His few supporters went in to schism and became known as [finally,] Romans, Romanists, or Roman Catholics , simply because they followed the Roman Church which had by means of a coup taken control off the catholic Church in Europe, It then became known collectively as the Roman Catholic Church.

The result was that there was two hundred years of complaints from the French Church and the Jansenists, or part of them caused a schism in 1713 that turned in to the Old Catholic Church of Utrecht by 1870.
 
Come on you Anglicans, it is time to swallow your pride and submit yourselves to the Supreme Pontiff. You risk damnation by not doing so. The Pope is the Prime Minister of the Church, the one to whom Christ entrusted the keys of the kingdom. He is the voice of Christ on earth, and if you refuse to listen to him, it is the same as ignoring the voice of Christ. Kyrie Eleison.
 
For myself, you’re welcome.

Please understand that a few points in LFD’s posts I can agree with. That is also being honest.

And Contarini is known for two things: his depth of knowledge and his honesty. In my experience.

And no furball required, yet. It appears all is going to be well. But isn’t, until I actually get the papers I need.

GKC
Sorry Jim, don’t agree with you here, anyone can use known facts to make their stories more plausible. By the way, has he answered your question about Maccollough?

P.S. I was grateful to Contarini for his post to Anglocat as well, it saved me the trouble of writiing a response.

Oh, did you notice my misspelling of goes?
 
Regarding my last contribution on Trent!

Not only did the papacy ,‘fiddle,’ as it were the organisation of the Council and pervert its opinions, not only ddid it refuse the Bishops the final say and refer everything to the Pope, which went against Catholic tradition The pope actually added rubbish to the Nicene Creed in face of the prohibition of the Church Fathers to add anything
LFDto the,’ Deposit of Faith!’ The teachings of the fathers were totally ignored.
 
Sorry Jim, don’t agree with you here, anyone can use known facts to make their stories more plausible. By the way, has he answered your question about Maccollough?

P.S. I was grateful to Contarini for his post to Anglocat as well, it saved me the trouble of writiing a response.

Oh, did you notice my misspelling of goes?
Not agreeing with me is ok.

I didn’t see a misspelling.

No, still no idea where to look in MacCulloch. Not holding my breath.

GKC
 
Come on you Anglicans, it is time to swallow your pride and submit yourselves to the Supreme Pontiff. You risk damnation by not doing so. The Pope is the Prime Minister of the Church, the one to whom Christ entrusted the keys of the kingdom. He is the voice of Christ on earth, and if you refuse to listen to him, it is the same as ignoring the voice of Christ. Kyrie Eleison.
Christe Eleison.

GKC
 
Come on you Anglicans, it is time to swallow your pride and submit yourselves to the Supreme Pontiff. You risk damnation by not doing so. The Pope is the Prime Minister of the Church, the one to whom Christ entrusted the keys of the kingdom. He is the voice of Christ on earth, and if you refuse to listen to him, it is the same as ignoring the voice of Christ. Kyrie Eleison.
Where have YOU been?

That has already been done.
Seems the Prime Minister of the Church, the Supreme Pontiff, the Patriarch of the West, the Big Cheese, Numero Uno,etc… can’t make up his mind whether he wants us or not!

BY the way, did all these penalties apply when the RCC was being run by the Borgias?

🤷:confused::eek:
 
later The Churches were organised in to larger groups and took the name of some powerful section.
Well, sure these words were used as geographical descriptions, but I can’t see that people gave them much ecclesiological importance.
In Britain it was the political tribe or race,i.e. The Celtic Church or the English or Anglican one.
Insofar as there was something called the “Celtic Church,” it was certainly not the same thing as the “English Church” but if anything in opposition to it. But I rather suspect that the term “Celtic Church” is anachronistic. I guess the more accurate term might be “British Church.”
There’s no doubt that the power of Rome grew and its authority spread all over Western Europe. Yet that authority came from either the State or the Church
I’m not sure how this statement avoids being trite. Where else would the authority of a particular church come from but from the universal Church, except insofar as it was political and came from the State?
That didn’t stop the papacy from trying however! Success,of a kind came with the Donation of Constantine and other forgeries.
You seem to think that your brothers in the faith who happened to live in first-millennium Rome were somehow intrinsically evil by virtue of their location. Otherwise why the implication that Rome, just because it was Rome, was always “trying” to do something illicit? Why not actually open your mind to the possibility that the bishops of Rome had what seemed like good reasons for what they did, even if we might disagree with some of them in retrospect?
By the 15th, Century, there was a trend to restore the traditional authority and curb the magisterium of the pope.
It’s interesting that you completely miss out the Gregorian Reform, which is key to the story of how the papacy became so dominant. Is it because the story of the Gregorian Reform doesn’t actually fit the narrative of naked political ambition that you are trying to tell?

I have plenty of problems with Trent too, so while I find your account onesided I won’t quarrel with it at the moment.
In Britain the pope issued a fatwa against Elizabeth and tried to change the Government by means of civil war and a Spanish Invasion.
Tell me plainly: do you think that the government ought to have authority over the Church in a particular area? Do you think that the Church is rightly organized into autonomous national churches, with the civil government in each nation acting as the leader of the Christian people in religious matters as well? If you do think this, on what Scriptural or traditional or rational evidence is this based? If you don’t, then why are you so condemnatory of the Pope for denouncing this radical departure from historic Christianity?
His few supporters went in to schism and became known as [finally,] Romans, Romanists, or Roman Catholics , simply because they followed the Roman Church which had by means of a coup taken control off the catholic Church in Europe, It then became known collectively as the Roman Catholic Church.
Since you haven’t bothered to discuss the alleged “coup,” your claim can’t be taken seriously. All you seem interested in talking about is the forgeries that played some role in supporting the medieval papal claims. You haven’t discussed the broader context at all. Which indicates that you don’t in fact know or care much about the historical matters regarding which you are pontificating.

I have compared the Gregorian Reform to Gandalf putting on the Ring. So I’m not a big fan of the later medieval papacy myself. But your version of the story amounts to making Saruman the good guy.

Edwin
 
The pope actually added rubbish to the Nicene Creed
What was this rubbish? The filioque had been added some time before, and was hardly added unilaterally by the Pope. In fact the Popes had been the last holdouts in the West *against *the filioque.

Edwin
 
What was this rubbish? The filioque had been added some time before, and was hardly added unilaterally by the Pope. In fact the Popes had been the last holdouts in the West *against *the filioque.

Edwin
Edwin,

If you are getting any replies to your questions, would you toss in a request for the page number in which MacCulloch reportedly says something paraphrased like this, as posted far above:

"…maybe you could explain what Diarmid McCulloch the Historian meant in his book on the European Reformation when he said tha, ,“there were no Roman Catholics in Europe in 1500, with the sole exception of the Kingdom of Bohemia where there were churches loyal to the pope operating under an establishment which traces its origins to the Hussite Movement. The Roman Church recast itself at the long running Council of Trent.”

Article from the Faith & Worship, No 58 ed, of the Prayer Book Society.Written by Bishop Chartres of London."

I suspect this is a mangling of page 37, but I can’t seem to get a confirmation.

GKC
 
Come on you Anglicans, it is time to swallow your pride and submit yourselves to the Supreme Pontiff. You risk damnation by not doing so. The Pope is the Prime Minister of the Church, the one to whom Christ entrusted the keys of the kingdom. He is the voice of Christ on earth, and if you refuse to listen to him, it is the same as ignoring the voice of Christ. Kyrie Eleison.
If you can’t persuade em’ just beat them into submission. Why not have the Spanish Inquisition relived, just for old time sake.
 
Boy, you are some kind of work aren’t you.
Are you trying to say I’m a “piece of work?” That’s actually how the insult goes lol…and what’s your point? You don’t make any argument or refutation, just a corny insult? I must be missing something.
 
That’s like saying Catholischism is really just a hologram of the authority Jesus gave to St. Peter.
I don’t follow. Jesus did give authority to St. Peter and it has been His Church that has travelled these 2,000 plus years teaching the Good News of Christ with the charism of infallibility.
 
Regarding Diarmid McCulloch.

I am not a member of the Anglican Communion, who I do not believe are either Catholic or Anglican. They are to my mind Latitudinarians or Neo Anglicans. Certainly not traditional ones. But to criticise a man for his sexual bent and then suggest that he is a stranger to the truth because he holds different beliefs, shows a lack of something when it originates from a Christian! Just because a man is no believer in Catholicism makes neither a rogue or vagabond.
From my point of view, a person living an active homosexual lifestyle who views it as normal and, even God-given, is far off from orthodoxy and spiritually impaired. His scholarship might be excellent but his own views and liberal worldview eventually enters the work. I don’t trust an active homosexual who has brought such a lifestyle to Christianity trying to legitimize it and synthesize it with the faith. Sorry if that offends your politically-correct sensibilities, lucky.
 
If you can’t persuade em’ just beat them into submission. Why not have the Spanish Inquisition relived, just for old time sake.
So are you one of those folks that hold to the theory that the RCC was behind all the inquisitions and that they condoned it all? You do know that these deplorable acts were done at the behest of the government of Spain right? The monarchy? Just as you can’t hold all Americans responsible for Abu Graib I would hope you’d have the common sense not to try and drag a 2,000 year old proud institution through the mud due to some sickening torture by Ferdinand, Isabella, and company? Torture in the name of religion, yes. Sanctioned,condoned, and overseen by Rome, no.

Nobody was talking beatings either. It appeared to me to just be a plea for Anglicans to recognize the Pope for what he is and hope they’ll abandon Anglicanism for Rome. I would hope the same thing, no beatings included…🙂
 
As an Anglican who is allowed to use his/her God given brains, all I will say is that this whole Papacy thing seems to have very fishy origins, and it is starting to stink!!
 
So are you one of those folks that hold to the theory that the RCC was behind all the inquisitions and that they condoned it all? You do know that these deplorable acts were done at the behest of the government of Spain right? The monarchy? Just as you can’t hold all Americans responsible for Abu Graib I would hope you’d have the common sense not to try and drag a 2,000 year old proud institution through the mud due to some sickening torture by Ferdinand, Isabella, and company? Torture in the name of religion, yes. Sanctioned,condoned, and overseen by Rome, no.

Nobody was talking beatings either. It appeared to me to just be a plea for Anglicans to recognize the Pope for what he is and hope they’ll abandon Anglicanism for Rome. I would hope the same thing, no beatings included…🙂
I relayed the same thing concerning the Inquisition; he thinks it’s all part of a grand Catholic conspiracy to rewrite history. He holds to the truths presented in Henry C. Lea’s books and will not bother to acknowledge anything other than his authority on the subject. Forget about Kamen or Edward Peters, Lea is the Pope on matters of the Inquisition. Oh, and don’t mention witch hunts and protestants in the same sentence, doesn’t register.
 
As an Anglican who is allowed to use his/her God given brains, all I will say is that this whole Papacy thing seems to have very fishy origins, and it is starting to stink!!
Wow, that’s very deep. :rolleyes:
 
From my point of view, a person living an active homosexual lifestyle who views it as normal and, even God-given, is far off from orthodoxy and spiritually impaired. His scholarship might be excellent but his own views and liberal worldview eventually enters the work. I don’t trust an active homosexual who has brought such a lifestyle to Christianity trying to legitimize it and synthesize it with the faith. Sorry if that offends your politically-correct sensibilities, lucky.
Dear Friend,

If I were to be offended by such a life style as you mention, I would be a poor Christian or Catholic indeed!
I have problems withit,in that I do not altogether understand it. I have gay friends and relatives and have no problems with them, nor they with me! I do not judge people, if I can help it and trust they do not judge me. If an actively gay Clergyman sought my vote for Bishop, I would refuse him. If he put up for election to Parliament and his politics were mine,his sexual orientation would be no bar!

Trusting this is acceptable to your good self?

God Bless,

Jim.
 
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