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SpiritMeadow
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You betcha!Me too…
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Rose_Maniple
Guest
I was greatly amused when the Church of the Advent of Christ the King in San Francisco posted a video of one of their Latin Masses (according to the Episcopal Prayer Book) on YouTube. There was an outpouring of furious comments from Roman Catholic (and a few Orthodox) users condemning the parish for “stealing” Gregorian chant, which belonged to the “true Church” and was not meant to be sung by “heretics.” Why indeed?
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SpiritMeadow
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LOL…if you don’t stop being so petulant I’m going to impose a time out! And take my toys and go home! Lighten up folks. We are all faithful Christians doing our best to serve God.
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SpiritMeadow
Guest
I have to say that it was members here who definitely helped me out the of the RCC too. A re-reading of Timothy and his instructions on teaching is definitely in order for us all!
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SpiritMeadow
Guest
I think I understand a bit of her difficulty. But in truth, I know no one when asked their demonination who says Catholic. They would say Episcopalian or Anglican. If asked which type of in the TEC, one might say Anglo Catholic, or whatever. But I do reconize her desire not to be associated with what she perceives as our scandals. We of course don’t wish to be likewise associated with RCC scandals either. But as I said, I doubt there is ever much confusion for the reasons stated above.
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GKC
Guest
Invalid matter, is the matter.
Sure, I know what you think. On that matter, anyway.
OTOH, I have no doubt it was a woman, on your witness. If it satisfies you, stay with it.
Apostolicae Curae, was, for some, a prescient judgment,
GKC
Anglicanus Catholicus
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GKC
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Deo_Volente
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Grace & Peace!
I am an Anglo-Catholic Christian. I do want to be a Catholic Christian. I do not merely think that I am a Catholic Christian. By God’s grace, I am actually a Catholic Christian. If that irks you, I really don’t know what to say. I cannot apologize for my faith as if it were something I was sorry for–as if I believed it were an offence. Nor do I find pleasure in your annoyance. I can only say this–that you are annoyed by my faith causes me some small amount of sadness. If that is a comfort to you, I’m glad. If it is not, then…well… There we are. Maybe I can suggest that perhaps there are better things in the world to be annoyed about?
If Rome binds you to believe that Catholicity is the province of Rome, that the Universal Faith is actually a bit less universal and a bit more particular, belonging as it does to one group and not other, then I suppose I must respect your choice to believe as such and just leave it at that, regardless of the great degree to which I disagree.
Under the Mercy,
Mark
All is grace and mercy. Deo Gratias!
I will attempt to participate in GKC’s irenic spirit by saying that everything you say and believe in this post is appropriate for you to say and believe. I write this, however, through grit teeth as it were. GKC is much better at being sincerely, honestly, and actually irenic.
I am an Anglo-Catholic Christian. I do want to be a Catholic Christian. I do not merely think that I am a Catholic Christian. By God’s grace, I am actually a Catholic Christian. If that irks you, I really don’t know what to say. I cannot apologize for my faith as if it were something I was sorry for–as if I believed it were an offence. Nor do I find pleasure in your annoyance. I can only say this–that you are annoyed by my faith causes me some small amount of sadness. If that is a comfort to you, I’m glad. If it is not, then…well… There we are. Maybe I can suggest that perhaps there are better things in the world to be annoyed about?
If Rome binds you to believe that Catholicity is the province of Rome, that the Universal Faith is actually a bit less universal and a bit more particular, belonging as it does to one group and not other, then I suppose I must respect your choice to believe as such and just leave it at that, regardless of the great degree to which I disagree.
Under the Mercy,
Mark
All is grace and mercy. Deo Gratias!
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GKC
Guest
I think that was well done. I couldn’t hear any teeth grinding.
You’re right. One cannot fault a RC for believing what the RCC requires to be affirmed. Nor do we need to try to make RCs think like Anglicans. But it is fair, sometimes, to try to explain what Anglicans think.
GKC
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Madaglan
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Luther, as I understand him, strongly opposed “faith formed by love,” and argued that one is justified by faith alone, love being a fruit of the Holy Spirit received through faith. This is still a common belief among many Protestants. If Luther accepted faith in love, it would have to be after justification by faith alone.
When Luther wrote sola fide, he did not mean justification by faith-working-through-love alone.
Many Protestants adopted the term sola fide, and I imagine some can claim to believe in “sola fide” while in actual fact coming closer to the Catholic position in their understanding of justification. Personally, I think that Anglicans who believe in justification by faith and works should drop the term.
No offense to anyone.
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caydamien02
Guest
all my brethren Anglican and Roman argues the Catholicity of both Churches. i see one become so prejudice towards the other. to know the meaning of this argument is simply put it as “who will go to heaven?” the Roman or the Anglican? and then for the Anglican who will be save? the conservative, liberal, traditionalist or continuing? how old have you guys have been the followers of Christ? and still not sure your way of salvation? for the Roman Catholic, who will go to heaven? the Traditionalist or the Novus Ordist? or the sedevacantist or conclacvist? the only way to say whether a Roman or an Anglican is Catholic is the apostolic succession. Council of Trent maintain that for a sacrament to be valid it is must be perform as what the Church does. it is not a matter of the ‘person’ minister or the faith of the minister it is of the valid minister(of apostolic succession) with the genuine rites.
The women priesthood or homosexualities doesn’t have to do with the Catholicity of those Churches. If Anglican should be diluted from its catholicity because of the women ordination and homosexuality then Roman Church should also loose it catholicism with her own “closet-in disguise” gay priests [pretending to be celibate…LOL!] around the world, protecting pedophilia clergy and bishops, and also her own unsettle women priesthood issue. Both Roman and Anglican have openly gay clergy and married priests. will that make them less from the grace of God through the Apostolic Orders? The Vatican though succeed in excommunicating their SSPX brothers but still refrain from excommunicating hundreds of Homosexual organization ministries in the Roman Church and millions of GLBT community who received the Eucharist every week!
what a shameful and arrogant act of some Roman and Anglican who professed the “Christian” faith by judging their Apostolic brethren. A total religious hypocrites. Our Lord prophesies the destruction of the world and the coming corruption in our world but He NEVER mention anything about a One superior Church that is above all churches. It is Because he would have expected the Church to be One. which we are called to. He would have known that none of His Churches governed by His Apostles will be spared from the gifts of Apostolic Succession no matter what issues crawl into the Church. Looking at the Orthodox, Jacobite Syriac-Malankara, Old Catholic, Anglican and Roman Catholic, all have professed the Apostolic Creed and fundamental teachings of the early Church councils with valid Apostolic Succession are the people who are true to the Vincentian Canon in the 434 A.D. “we take the greatest care to hold that which has been believed everywhere, always, and by all. That is truly and properly ‘Catholic’.” - St.Vincent Lerins.
There were many Orthodox and Catholic martyrs, doctors and Fathers venerated together. None of them are consider less than the other because of what church they belong to. If an Anglican chose to live a life as the early Christian it doesnt make them Catholic nor Orthodox but rather make them a perfect being as called by the Lord. Do not confused by the term because we know through history that Catholicism and Orthodoxy is a way of perfection. So to say to be a true Catholic is to be Catholic in spirit not just being in a Church membership and being obedient to the pope but that doesnt mean we should not respect our Bishops of Apostolic Succession.
pax!
Our Lady of Mount Carmel, Pray for us.
The women priesthood or homosexualities doesn’t have to do with the Catholicity of those Churches. If Anglican should be diluted from its catholicity because of the women ordination and homosexuality then Roman Church should also loose it catholicism with her own “closet-in disguise” gay priests [pretending to be celibate…LOL!] around the world, protecting pedophilia clergy and bishops, and also her own unsettle women priesthood issue. Both Roman and Anglican have openly gay clergy and married priests. will that make them less from the grace of God through the Apostolic Orders? The Vatican though succeed in excommunicating their SSPX brothers but still refrain from excommunicating hundreds of Homosexual organization ministries in the Roman Church and millions of GLBT community who received the Eucharist every week!
what a shameful and arrogant act of some Roman and Anglican who professed the “Christian” faith by judging their Apostolic brethren. A total religious hypocrites. Our Lord prophesies the destruction of the world and the coming corruption in our world but He NEVER mention anything about a One superior Church that is above all churches. It is Because he would have expected the Church to be One. which we are called to. He would have known that none of His Churches governed by His Apostles will be spared from the gifts of Apostolic Succession no matter what issues crawl into the Church. Looking at the Orthodox, Jacobite Syriac-Malankara, Old Catholic, Anglican and Roman Catholic, all have professed the Apostolic Creed and fundamental teachings of the early Church councils with valid Apostolic Succession are the people who are true to the Vincentian Canon in the 434 A.D. “we take the greatest care to hold that which has been believed everywhere, always, and by all. That is truly and properly ‘Catholic’.” - St.Vincent Lerins.
There were many Orthodox and Catholic martyrs, doctors and Fathers venerated together. None of them are consider less than the other because of what church they belong to. If an Anglican chose to live a life as the early Christian it doesnt make them Catholic nor Orthodox but rather make them a perfect being as called by the Lord. Do not confused by the term because we know through history that Catholicism and Orthodoxy is a way of perfection. So to say to be a true Catholic is to be Catholic in spirit not just being in a Church membership and being obedient to the pope but that doesnt mean we should not respect our Bishops of Apostolic Succession.
pax!
Our Lady of Mount Carmel, Pray for us.
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grampben
Guest
Please site a source for this.
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IowaJay
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Here’s what Luther had to say:
“7. We hold, and unquestionably it is true, that it is faith which justifies and cleanses. Rom 1, 17; 10, 10; Acts 15, 9. But if it justifies and purifies, love must be present. The Spirit cannot but impart love together with faith. In fact, where true faith is, the Holy Spirit dwells; and where the Holy Spirit is, there must be love and every excellence.”
orlutheran.com/html/mlse1co13.html
He also wrote that faith is a “busy, active, mighty thing.”
books.google.com/books?id=w37BGZ6V7nkC&pg=PA448&lpg=PA448&dq=luther+faith+busy+active+thing&source=bl&ots=FjMuAaDs4_&sig=p0OtbUYv9ghy_6sKSliivjU-7CY&hl=en&ei=udOmSeWvDonOMuvMuLsC&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result
IMHO the whole debate should have never been labeled “faith vs. works” because Lutherans teach that faith and works of love are indeed inseparable. The debate is more appropriately characterized as a debate about the role of the human will in the process of forming faith - Catholic theology emphasizes the role of free will, whereas Lutheran theology emphasizes our will is bound to sin and that our faith is a gift of the Spirit.
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GKC
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It is not difficult to discern.Yes I am aware we have a difference of opinion.
GKC
posterus traditus Anglicanus, *Anglicanus Catholicus
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Contarini
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Actually the question is “why isn’t it”? Anything is speculation until you give evidence for it. Evidence would be government records citing him as a recusant or something like that. All the evidence people find from his plays proves at most that he was somewhat more sympathetic to Catholicism than other folks of his day, and given what good drama Catholic “props” provide even that is somewhat speculative.
I’m not sure why Joseph Pearce’s former anti-Catholicism is relevant, except as evidence against his credibility. Someone who has once held wild and silly views of one sort, but has now abandoned them, is likely to hold wild and silly views of some other sort by way of reaction. This is of course not reason to dismiss what Mr. Pearce says. However, I have not been impressed by what I’ve read of his work (mostly his book on C. S. Lewis). He has an axe to grind and doesn’t look fairly at the material. (His interpretation of Lewis’s Anglicanism, for instance, shows a very poor understanding of Anglicanism and basically interprets Anglicanism in whatever directly will support his thesis about Lewis).
Entertaining does not always mean sold scholarship. I wish it did–I have nothing against entertainment! But when dealing with history I’ll take scholarship over entertainment if I have to choose.
Edwin
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Contarini
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I don’t see the connection between those two paragraphs. The faith that justifies is a faith that works through love. But in Luther’s view faith does not need love in order to be formed or perfected. Love is the means through which faith expresses itself, not something that perfects or completes or “vivifies” faith.
I can’t see that the Articles take a stand on that issue. Myself, I’m not sure it’s the right way of framing the question. I would say with Luther that the faith given by God always comes along with love, but I would also say that faith grows and diminishes according to whether we act out of love.
Edwin
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Gottle_of_Geer
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You’re entitled to your opinion, of course.
“the Papal Church”? Not very ecumenical of you. We prefer to be called “the Catholic Church”, “the Roman Catholic Church”, or “the Roman Catholic Communion”.
Consider: we Catholics call the Church of England “the Church of England” (not e.g. “the Henritic religious organization” or whatever); so I don’t really see why you want to call us “the Papal Church” rather than 1 of the 3 names I just mentioned.
Believe it or not - but I was trying to avoid being offensive to RCs or Anglicans IOW, trying to be ecumenical.
The trouble with just about every expression is that each one- has associations - or
- implies granting what others might not grant - or
- is pejorative
So: - Romanist is out - it’s pejorative
- Catholic is out, because the Catholicity of one or both bodies is the issue under discussion
- “Communion” has associations: it might imply that either or both of the bodies is not a Church
- “See of Rome” is ambiguous: it can refer to the diocese in Italy, or to the authority which governs the Church which is subject to the Roman Pontiff
I plumped for “Papal Church” as meaning: - Church - the communion of persons subject to to Roman See is certainly that
- Church subject to the Pope (of Rome) - the Church aforementioned is that also
- the body that is not the C of E nor in communion with it nor in any way related to it at present.
There is also the issue of what it means for a Church to be Catholic or catholic: what is “Catholicity” ? There is a lot more to it than quoting this or that Father or whoever it may be.
The difficulty is think of a Church of which that last remark could not be made…
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otch_maker
Guest
You are confusing Anglicans or Anglo-Catholics with Episcopalians which is a U.S. denomination. I was Anglo-Catholic until a year ago when I became disillusioned that we would never be accepted into the RC faith so I became Catholic, a decision I’ve never regretted --Im happier and more fullfilled now and have a lasting, enduring relationship with the father, son and holy spirit. BUT that doesn’t stop me from always respecting and loving my Anglican brothers and sisters.
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