Why do Anglicans think they are Catholic?

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Contarini said:
I was not aware of this, but as I expected when I saw your post, it turns out that he practices Zen. Can you list the things that he believes as a Zen practitioner that are incompatible with Christianity?

Are you aware that a number of Catholic priests also practice Zen? The argument is that Zen involves no metaphysical commitments incompatible with Christianity (as Theravada Buddhism does) and no devotion to other deities (as many forms of Mahayana do). If you have a solid refutation of this argument, I’m interested to hear it. I do not accept this kind of thing uncritically, but neither to I condemn it without examination.

“Many” parishes is an exaggeration, I think. Abuses do sometimes happen.

Chuckling at the sorrows of your fellow Christians does not seem like a very healthy practice. And “orthodox” Anglicans can be quite nasty–I wouldn’t advise you to imitate them, or indeed any partisans of either side in our present troubles.

I am happy to see that you are more comfortable in the embrace of the Roman Communion than you once were, but I could wish that this did not lead to your taking such an abrasive tone with other Christians.

So an internal action on our part, conferring Holy Orders on human beings created in God’s image and for whom Christ died, is seen by you as equivalent to a crude insult?

This is the kind of thinking that leads to religious persecution. Apparently we offend you simply by daring to be different from you, and you see nasty insults as a legitimate response to such an outrageous provocation.

Edwin
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As to the Buddhist priest, as may be, all I know:

virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/article.php?storyid=10078

Yes, It’s Virtue On Line.

GKC
 
GKC said:
As to the Buddhist priest, as may be, all I know:

virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/article.php?storyid=10078

Yes, It’s Virtue On Line.

GKC
Click to expand...
My Christian Faith & the Practice of Zen Buddhist Meditation
Kevin Thew Forrester
25 February 2009

As a Christian, I am deeply aware that I live and move and have my being in Christ – as does all creation. I am
honored to be the bishop-elect of the Diocese of Northern Michigan with the opportunity to serve and work with
the Episcopal Ministry Support Team as well as the people of the diocese for the next 10 to 15 years, committed as we are to the ministry of all the baptized.

Each of us is formed in the image and likeness of God. As a Christian, I owe my life to our Trinitarian faith.
Over the years my faith and spiritual practice have been largely shaped and profoundly imprinted by the mystics
and the contemplative spiritual tradition. I have grown in my awareness that the grace of God, which is God’s
very Presence, cannot be circumscribed. Because of my faith in the gracious goodness of the Godhead, I am
open to receive the wisdom from, and be in dialogue with, other faith traditions; not to mention the sciences and
the arts.

I am quite honored, as an Episcopal priest, to have been trained in the art and practice of Zen meditation. I am
not an ordained Buddhist priest. I am an Episcopal priest eternally grateful for the truth, beauty and goodness,
experienced in meditation. I am thankful for the pioneering work of Thomas Merton in the Buddhist-Christian
dialogue. I am also thankful for the current elders in our Christian tradition,
such as Thomas Keating and David Steindl-Rast, whose practice of meditation (like that of Merton) deepened
their own contemplative life and led them to explore the sacramental common ground we share through
the grace of God. As a Christian I can be receptive to divine truth, beauty and goodness, because I know that
“All things come of Thee, O Lord; and of thine own have we given thee.”
I have been blessed to practice Zen meditation for almost a decade. About five years ago a Buddhist community
welcomed me as an Episcopal priest in my commitment to a meditation practice—a process known by some
Buddhists as “lay ordination.”

Literally thousands of Christians have been drawn to Zen Buddhism in particular because, distinct from western
religions, it embodies a pragmatic philosophy and a focus on human suffering rather than a unique theology of
God. “Lay ordination” has a different meaning in Buddhist practice than in the Christian tradition. The essence
of this welcoming ceremony, which included no oaths, was my resolve to use the practice of meditation as a
path to awakening to the truth of the reality of human suffering. Meditation deepens my dwelling in Christ.
My experience continues to be that through the grace of meditation I am drawn ever deeper into the Trinitarian
contemplative Christian tradition. I have been able to bring the practice of meditation/contemplation to the
wider diocese through the gifts discovery process and through the founding of the Healing Arts Center
at St. Paul’s in Marquette. The Center is devoted to assisting people in their own spiritual journey, which
includes the practice of meditation within the sanctuary and the exploration of Christian contemplatives and
mystics.

episcopalchurch.org/81803_105800_ENG_HTM.htm
upepiscopal.org/christian-zen.pdf
 
emeraldcoast said:
My Christian Faith & the Practice of Zen Buddhist Meditation
Kevin Thew Forrester
25 February 2009

As a Christian, I am deeply aware that I live and move and have my being in Christ – as does all creation. I am
honored to be the bishop-elect of the Diocese of Northern Michigan with the opportunity to serve and work with
the Episcopal Ministry Support Team as well as the people of the diocese for the next 10 to 15 years, committed as we are to the ministry of all the baptized.

Each of us is formed in the image and likeness of God. As a Christian, I owe my life to our Trinitarian faith.
Over the years my faith and spiritual practice have been largely shaped and profoundly imprinted by the mystics
and the contemplative spiritual tradition. I have grown in my awareness that the grace of God, which is God’s
very Presence, cannot be circumscribed. Because of my faith in the gracious goodness of the Godhead, I am
open to receive the wisdom from, and be in dialogue with, other faith traditions; not to mention the sciences and
the arts.

I am quite honored, as an Episcopal priest, to have been trained in the art and practice of Zen meditation. I am
not an ordained Buddhist priest. I am an Episcopal priest eternally grateful for the truth, beauty and goodness,
experienced in meditation. I am thankful for the pioneering work of Thomas Merton in the Buddhist-Christian
dialogue. I am also thankful for the current elders in our Christian tradition,
such as Thomas Keating and David Steindl-Rast, whose practice of meditation (like that of Merton) deepened
their own contemplative life and led them to explore the sacramental common ground we share through
the grace of God. As a Christian I can be receptive to divine truth, beauty and goodness, because I know that
“All things come of Thee, O Lord; and of thine own have we given thee.”
I have been blessed to practice Zen meditation for almost a decade. About five years ago a Buddhist community
welcomed me as an Episcopal priest in my commitment to a meditation practice—a process known by some
Buddhists as “lay ordination.”

Literally thousands of Christians have been drawn to Zen Buddhism in particular because, distinct from western
religions, it embodies a pragmatic philosophy and a focus on human suffering rather than a unique theology of
God. “Lay ordination” has a different meaning in Buddhist practice than in the Christian tradition. The essence
of this welcoming ceremony, which included no oaths, was my resolve to use the practice of meditation as a
path to awakening to the truth of the reality of human suffering. Meditation deepens my dwelling in Christ.
My experience continues to be that through the grace of meditation I am drawn ever deeper into the Trinitarian
contemplative Christian tradition. I have been able to bring the practice of meditation/contemplation to the
wider diocese through the gifts discovery process and through the founding of the Healing Arts Center
at St. Paul’s in Marquette. The Center is devoted to assisting people in their own spiritual journey, which
includes the practice of meditation within the sanctuary and the exploration of Christian contemplatives and
mystics.

episcopalchurch.org/81803_105800_ENG_HTM.htm
upepiscopal.org/christian-zen.pdf
Click to expand...
Nope. Nothing surprising here.

GKC
 
Contarini said:
This is the kind of thinking that leads to religious persecution. Apparently we offend you simply by daring to be different from you, and you see nasty insults as a legitimate response to such an outrageous provocation.

Edwin
Click to expand...
I believe Edwin, he apologized for that, its the part that you neglected to put in your post.
 
josie_L said:
I believe Edwin, he apologized for that, its the part that you neglected to put in your post.
Click to expand...
He followed the apology with the outrageous analogy I cited. That’s what I’m taking issue with.

Edwin
 
josie_L said:
Edwin, outrageous analogy or not, he apologized. Don’t you think you reacted a bit too much?
Click to expand...
He said it was the analogy he reacted to, not the apology. This indicates he accepts the apology does it not?
 
grampben said:
He said it was the analogy he reacted to, not the apology. This indicates he accepts the apology does it not?
Click to expand...
I am stating he overreacted (by utilizing the last words he posted to gurney) in his response, and that the apology should have softened the blow.
 
josie_L said:
I am stating he overreacted (by utilizing the last words he posted to gurney) in his response, and that the apology should have softened the blow.
Click to expand...
It’s the other way round. When you apologize but go on to defend what you said in a manner more offensive than the original remark, the apology becomes hypocritical.

I think that using the word “episcopagan” is juvenile and rude. But I accept that gurneyhalleck learned this from my conservative fellow Anglicans (one of whom, a writer whom I greatly respect on the whole, once referred to liberals as the “orcs of Minas Griswold”–Griswold being at that time the presiding bishop of the Episcopal Church). What really upset me was the claim that our ordination practice is more offensive to other Christians than a direct insult. This is just unacceptable. When you start claiming that other people are offending you just by being who they are you are going down a very dark road.

But I do agree that this has been blown out of proportion. I stand by my original post, but there is no point arguing it any further. It may be that I did overreact–I have certainly been known to do so!

Edwin
 
Contarini said:
It’s the other way round. When you apologize but go on to defend what you said in a manner more offensive than the original remark, the apology becomes hypocritical.

I think that using the word “episcopagan” is juvenile and rude. But I accept that gurneyhalleck learned this from my conservative fellow Anglicans (one of whom, a writer whom I greatly respect on the whole, once referred to liberals as the “orcs of Minas Griswold”–Griswold being at that time the presiding bishop of the Episcopal Church). What really upset me was the claim that our ordination practice is more offensive to other Christians than a direct insult. This is just unacceptable. When you start claiming that other people are offending you just by being who they are you are going down a very dark road.

But I do agree that this has been blown out of proportion. I stand by my original post, but there is no point arguing it any further. It may be that I did overreact–I have certainly been known to do so!

Edwin
Click to expand...
You are absolutely justified in being upset with this nonsensical behavior. It is rude, condescending and downright wrong for adults to call folks in other churches outside of their proper names. Episcopagan is like Catholischism. They are both meant to be insulting and hurtful. I am glad that you reacted to it the way you did. You had ever right to.
 
Contarini said:
I think that using the word “episcopagan” is juvenile and rude.

Edwin
Click to expand...
Definitely agreed. The only way it could be legitimately used would be if we were discussing “Oakwyse” and his ilk…

You had every right to be upset. No foul.
 
Contarini said:
I was not aware of this, but as I expected when I saw your post, it turns out that he practices Zen. Can you list the things that he believes as a Zen practitioner that are incompatible with Christianity?

Are you aware that a number of Catholic priests also practice Zen? The argument is that Zen involves no metaphysical commitments incompatible with Christianity (as Theravada Buddhism does) and no devotion to other deities (as many forms of Mahayana do). If you have a solid refutation of this argument, I’m interested to hear it. I do not accept this kind of thing uncritically, but neither to I condemn it without examination.

**I could care less that some Catholics practice Zen. Some don’t go to Mass or confession either. Some priests have done some very over-the-top things but they are not accepted by the Church or papacy. I am quite aware of what Zen is and I’m familiar with Bodhidarma, the Flower Sutra, koans, meditation, and the like. I find any form of Buddhism, since Buddhism essentially is agnostic and has a focus of no-self, a denial of the human soul, to be incompatible with Christianity no matter what the motivation. **

“Many” parishes is an exaggeration, I think. Abuses do sometimes happen.

Perhaps you’re correct. “Several” might be a better choice of words.

Chuckling at the sorrows of your fellow Christians does not seem like a very healthy practice. And “orthodox” Anglicans can be quite nasty–I wouldn’t advise you to imitate them, or indeed any partisans of either side in our present troubles.

As a conservative Christian who views the Bible as infallible text and respecting the Gospel and Old Testament, I’d advise you to imitate your conservative Anglican brothers in Christ who are far closer to the truth than yourself. There is no room for synchretism, paganism, mother goddesses, alternative lifestyles, and the Gong Show approach to Christianity that the Episcopal Church proposes. Your “present troubles” in the Episcopal Church come from the fact that there is no leadership, the Episcopal Church has turned its back on the truth of the Gospel in favor of a modern social justice liberal gospel of inclusion, and your numbers are dwindling. People who are earnestly, truly seeking Christ want to be changed and be born again, not simply keep the status quo and have some acceptance. That is why Anglican churches like Plano, TX are successful and flowering while many (and I can say many this time thankfully) are dying on the vine. I don’t take pleasure in your “present troubles.” I find them tragic. I find it sad that the gospel of social liberals has become your credo.

I am happy to see that you are more comfortable in the embrace of the Roman Communion than you once were, but I could wish that this did not lead to your taking such an abrasive tone with other Christians.

I am indeed abrasive toward diabolical teachings. I find the Episcopal Church to have many teachings that are fundamentally “of the world” and not of Christ. The United Methodist Church is another church I am terrified of because they pervert the Gospel in Christ’s name bringing people down a false path. “Abrasive” is your choice as to how to characterize what I said. I’m not going to sugar-coat what I see as a horrific distortion of the Church parading itself around as legitimate.

So an internal action on our part, conferring Holy Orders on human beings created in God’s image and for whom Christ died, is seen by you as equivalent to a crude insult?
You bet! Nice liberal spin on it. You should work for MSNBC! I don’t need to lecture you on the historical, theological, and common sense absurdity of your position. You know in your heart that female clerics is silly and that, in no way shape or form, is it true to the 2,000 year old heritage and theology of the Church. Only a man may stand in persona christi, Christ had no female apostles (surely if Jesus had believed in women being deserving of such a role, you KNOW He would have instituted it. Jesus was very innovative and bold, controversial and unafraid during His time. If anyone would deserve an apostleship as a female, Mary Magdalene and the BVM would be at the top of the list! And yet…no. I know it’s hard to accept for folks like you, Edwin, that women and men are indeed different. I hope that’s not too abrasive for you, but it’s true. God means us to have different roles and the priesthood is not one of them. Show me one piece of evidence from the NT, the historical Church, or any credible saint that supports lady priests. I look forward to reading it.**
This is the kind of thinking that leads to religious persecution. Apparently we offend you simply by daring to be different from you, and you see nasty insults as a legitimate response to such an outrageous provocation.
**Religious persecution? Do you seriously believe that? I completely, totally, absolutely think you are a million miles from the truth Christ has given us. That being said, this is the United States, the greatest country in the world, brother. If you want to worship a candleabra, that’s your business. You could worship Bill Cosby or join a comet-worship cult, that’s ok with me. But in a theological argument such as this, the gloves are off. Have no fear of an inquisition, Edwin. And I might view your comments today as “condescending and arrogant.” So you’re condescending and arrogant, full of liberal innovations and pie-in-the-sky social justice boloney, and I’m abrasive and nasty. **
Edwin
Click to expand...
**
Wow! Where to begin!? See above…**
 
ICA04 said:
You are absolutely justified in being upset with this nonsensical behavior. It is rude, condescending and downright wrong for adults to call folks in other churches outside of their proper names. Episcopagan is like Catholischism. They are both meant to be insulting and hurtful. I am glad that you reacted to it the way you did. You had ever right to.
Click to expand...
Ah hah! You remind me of a kid on the playground! Nice cheap shot! You talk about how civil you and your Episcopal cohort are and what an uncivilized barbarian I am for an Episcopal joke and yet you slip in the “catholischim” dig! That playground kid strategy is classic:

Billy, apologize to Ralphy for calling his mother a ________"

Billy: Hey Ralphy, I’m sorry your mother is a ____________"

“Hey, Mr. Smith, I resent the way you said my wife looks like a longshorman! I have been very civilized in not pointing out how your wife has a weak chin and an overbite!”

Subtle, smooth, and classy, man! You’re right! You have the moral high-ground here!! LOL:thumbsup:
 
Contarini said:
It’s the other way round. When you apologize but go on to defend what you said in a manner more offensive than the original remark, the apology becomes hypocritical.

I think that using the word “episcopagan” is juvenile and rude. But I accept that gurneyhalleck learned this from my conservative fellow Anglicans (one of whom, a writer whom I greatly respect on the whole, once referred to liberals as the “orcs of Minas Griswold”–Griswold being at that time the presiding bishop of the Episcopal Church). What really upset me was the claim that our ordination practice is more offensive to other Christians than a direct insult. This is just unacceptable. When you start claiming that other people are offending you just by being who they are you are going down a very dark road.

But I do agree that this has been blown out of proportion. I stand by my original post, but there is no point arguing it any further. It may be that I did overreact–I have certainly been known to do so!

Edwin
Click to expand...
That Orcs of Minas Griswold thing is hilarious. Thanks for that one. LOL…“people are offending you just by being who they are?” A pedophile, by much modern research, is driven psychologically to molest kids. Some European countries have loosened laws regarding pederasty/pedophilia because, for the child-molester, he’s “being himself.” Transvestites make the same claim. So are you going to have a cross-dressing priest? I’ve heard the argument that beastiality is part of some folks’ sexual make-up. That would make for an interesting bishop! Wow! I guess in your gospel we’re all just called to stay status quo, follow our urges, and sign up to become bishops! I have no problem with CELIBATE homosexuals. If that is the thorn in their side sexually that they have to live with, God Bless them for that. What a challenge…I am sensitive to that. But an actively homosexual priest or bishop is unacceptable, period.
 
GKC said:
A hit. A palpable hit.

GKC
Click to expand...
I yield, but you get the point of my statement, however quick it was. I’m not calling a “priestess” mother, not happening. There, that is more concise.
 
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