Why do Anglicans think they are Catholic?

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Apologies. I’m sure you can understand how one can get frustrated at blatant untruths being propagated about one’s continent.
Again, sorry to you and sorry to everyone else for de-railing :o
No worries, and apology accepted. God Bless.
 
ICA04 is absolutely rude, you just need to read more of his/hers posts.
Should we respond to rudeness with more rudeness, then? I wasn’t basing my comments off of ICA’s history, just the one comment on this thread, which, perhaps I took in a more charitable light than others.

Anyhow, I think this thread has started meandering away from its original intent. 😉
 
God bless the Anglicans, especially those Anglicans who have or are in the process of splitting away from their Episcopal parishes and diocese. These folks have sacrificed more than most of you will ever in this generation for the Gospel. Thousands of them are not just walking away from the liberal theology which has seemingly taken over most of the ECUSA, but are leaving behind thousands in endowment funds, generations in church buildings hundreds and hundreds of years old, loved ones who’s ashes are buried in memorial gardens on church grounds and leaving behind many relationships with those choosing to remain Episcopalian. Anglicans aplenty have sacrificed deeply in America for the promose of Christ and his Holy Word. God bless them and God be with them in their endeavors. Regardless of what anyone says here or the obvious ostricising that goes on so often, they truly are God’s people.
 
Should we respond to rudeness with more rudeness, then? I wasn’t basing my comments off of ICA’s history, just the one comment on this thread, which, perhaps I took in a more charitable light than others.

Anyhow, I think this thread has started meandering away from its original intent. 😉
You missed the point completely, gurney apologized for his rudeness ICA04 didn’t.
 
God bless the Anglicans, especially those Anglicans who have or are in the process of splitting away from their Episcopal parishes and diocese. These folks have sacrificed more than most of you will ever in this generation for the Gospel. Thousands of them are not just walking away from the liberal theology which has seemingly taken over most of the ECUSA, but are leaving behind thousands in endowment funds, generations in church buildings hundreds and hundreds of years old, loved ones who’s ashes are buried in memorial gardens on church grounds and leaving behind many relationships with those choosing to remain Episcopalian. Anglicans aplenty have sacrificed deeply in America for the promose of Christ and his Holy Word. God bless them and God be with them in their endeavors. Regardless of what anyone says here or the obvious ostricising that goes on so often, they truly are God’s people.
How about all the churches and cathedrals, monasteries and abbies destroyed and taken away by protestant reformers and the nobility, from the CC.
 
How about all the churches and cathedrals, monasteries and abbies destroyed and taken away by protestant reformers and the nobility, from the CC.
I am not at all surprised by how someone like yourself would sabbotage something as sincere as what I spoke of. This proves beyond any doubt that it is you who seek to destroy and have vengance and for what? Let it lie for God’s sake.
 
What about all the churches and Cathedrals , monasteries and abbeys destroyed and taken away by protestant reformers and the nobility?

*If you are talking about the ,‘great steal,’ in England under the Tudors. the supporters of the papacy and their friends were not backward in taking their share!

Do not forget that Cardinal Pole’s and Queen Mary’s attempt to return the Papal authority
in this country was held back by his supporters as well as his opponents until they had secured his promise not to take the stolen lands off them.
Also that Queen Mary used the controversial legislation making her the head of the Church in so far as the Law of God allows to gain his return.*
 
What about all the churches and Cathedrals , monasteries and abbeys destroyed and taken away by protestant reformers and the nobility?

*If you are talking about the ,‘great steal,’ in England under the Tudors. the supporters of the papacy and their friends were not backward in taking their share!

Do not forget that Cardinal Pole’s and Queen Mary’s attempt to return the Papal authority
in this country was held back by his supporters as well as his opponents until they had secured his promise not to take the stolen lands off them.
Also that Queen Mary used the controversial legislation making her the head of the Church in so far as the Law of God allows to gain his return.*
Nope. The Supreme Head Act, 1534, under which the Sovereign functioned as “supreme head of the English Church”, didn’t have the limitation of “as far as the law of Christ allows”: That was the wording the clergy used, in 1531, in avoiding Henry’s threat of a charge of a violation of the Statutes of Praemunire., in acquiescing to his demand for that recognition. That, and a payment of 100,000 pounds. Mary, in fact, repealed the Act, which was re-established by Elizabeth, using the words “supreme governor”, not head, in 1559.

GKC

GKC
 
**Dear GKC, I’m glad you told me that, I knew it mind you but it all helps! The fact is that the wording “as far as the’ Word of God allows,” was put in to the Act. This was when it had a free ?] vote. The 1534 re-enactment was a totally different case . I’ve been an active and convinced Anglican all my life,a,'cradle catholic,'as it were and I would not have moved , seconded or voted for the addition to the later legislation!

You, in the comfort of your own home, with your books might be made of sterner stuff, if so I admire you and congratulate you!

How-and ever, the point at issue surely is the fact that papalists as well as orthodox Anglicans took part in the land grab and while it is nothing to be proud of I feel, like yourself, no doubt, that the truth should be made known! Further as far as I understand Mary used the legislation to achieve her wicked ends. So did, I understand, James the 11nd in his futile reign!

By the way are you the resident trigger man for this list?**
 
**Dear GKC, I’m glad you told me that, I knew it mind you but it all helps! The fact is that the wording “as far as the’ Word of God allows,” was put in to the Act. This was when it had a free ?] vote. The 1534 re-enactment was a totally different case . I’ve been an active and convinced Anglican all my life,a,'cradle catholic,'as it were and I would not have moved , seconded or voted for the addition to the later legislation!

You, in the comfort of your own home, with your books might be made of sterner stuff, if so I admire you and congratulate you!

How-and ever, the point at issue surely is the fact that papalists as well as orthodox Anglicans took part in the land grab and while it is nothing to be proud of I feel, like yourself, no doubt, that the truth should be made known! Further as far as I understand Mary used the legislation to achieve her wicked ends. So did, I understand, James the 11nd in his futile reign!

By the way are you the resident trigger man for this list?**
No, I’m an humble scholar, amateur grade.

Henry wrote the Act, of 1534. At no time did those words appear in it. He was mightly miffed when the Convocation of Canterbury, in submitting in 1531, against his charge of a violation of the Praemunire Statues, included it. The Convocation of York, submitting shortly thereafter, questioned just what Henry meant by “supreme head”, and being mollifed by his reply, submitted. In three years, he took his revenge. Cite a source that says otherwise, if you know one. And I’m doubtful you will be able to, Henricianism being my favorite English history spot. OTOH, you never know. Mine, ab initio, would be Moorman, A HISTORY OF THE CHURCH IN ENGLAND, or Bettenson, DOCUMENTS OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH

Yes, all concerned were adamant that nothing would done to re-sort the disposition of the clerical lands, and this was one of the main issues that were placed before Julius as a prerequisite to England accepting his authority, again. He agreed, but not happily.

Bringing the realm back to the RCC was a two part process, one far more simple and popular than the other. Restoring the old Mass was a breeze, Making the Pope again the authority was harder. Took some work and some compromise. Mary played little part in it, being wrapped up more in Phillip.

Mary renounced the Act of 1534. It’s why Elizabeth had to have her own act. Hank’s was gone. And Elizabeth wanted to fine tune it, anyway. Bettenson is again a source. Whatever James might have done, he used Elizabeth’s 1559 Act.

GKC
 
What about all the churches and Cathedrals , monasteries and abbeys destroyed and taken away by protestant reformers and the nobility?

*If you are talking about the ,‘great steal,’ in England under the Tudors. the supporters of the papacy and their friends were not backward in taking their share!

Do not forget that Cardinal Pole’s and Queen Mary’s attempt to return the Papal authority
in this country was held back by his supporters as well as his opponents until they had secured his promise not to take the stolen lands off them.
Also that Queen Mary used the controversial legislation making her the head of the Church in so far as the Law of God allows to gain his return.*
Luckyfredsdad, I refer to the many british/european countries who partook of the “great steal,” who greedily followed in the English King’s footsteps.
 
Luckyfredsdad, I refer to the many british/european countries who partook of the “great steal,” who greedily followed in the English King’s footsteps.
The churches and cathedrals you are referring to were England’s all along regardless of what the papal proclamations were. It wasn’t theft in the least. Rome owns what is in Rome, but not in England nor any other place regardless.
 
No, I’m an humble scholar, amateur grade.

HENRY WROTE THE ACT? Your words]

**Well even if he didn’t his servants probably did. The point being that the Church didn’t! In 1531 Convocation had affixed the saving clause by their own free will, in 1543, HENRY USED PARLIAMENT TO DECLARE HIS SUPREMACY! This was for ,’ The greater confirmation of the Supremacy already acknowledged by the clergy.’

You really should give up your Moorman, he is a colourless writer and I blame him and people like him for the fall in Anglican awareness over the years of their marvellous history!**

A much better historian is Offley Wakeman. His INTRODUCTION TO THE HISTORY OF THE CHURCH OF ENGLAND. His history is far superior to anything I’ve yet seen of that kind, more so than Moorman or Carpenter’s offering which are staid and shallow!. In my opinion of course.
 
GKC;4953404:
No, I’m an humble scholar, amateur grade.

HENRY WROTE THE ACT? Your words]

**Well even if he didn’t his servants probably did. The point being that the Church didn’t! In 1531 Convocation had affixed the saving clause by their own free will, in 1543, HENRY USED PARLIAMENT TO DECLARE HIS SUPREMACY! This was for ,’ The greater confirmation of the Supremacy already acknowledged by the clergy.’

You really should give up your Moorman, he is a colourless writer and I blame him and people like him for the fall in Anglican awareness over the years of their marvellous history!**
A much better historian is Offley Wakeman. His INTRODUCTION TO THE HISTORY OF THE CHURCH OF ENGLAND. His history is far superior to anything I’ve yet seen of that kind, more so than Moorman or Carpenter’s offering which are staid and shallow!. In my opinion of course.

They didn’t affix it merely by their own free will, they affixed it (and did a couple of other things) to frustrate Henry’s intent, in threatening them with Praemunire. Henry’s original suggested phrase was “the English Church, of which the king alone is protector and supreme head”. Point is, the phrase wasn’t in the Parliamentary Act. And thus wasn’t in the law. And wasn’t a description of how the term “head” was described or limited, as applied to the sovereign, legally. And wasn’t in the Act, by Henry’s direction. Because that’s how he wanted it. The whole affair with Convocations in 1531 was a sucker punch. Which didn’t work. Except for the 118,000 pounds. Which worked just fine.

Moorman’s color is also just fine, as are his facts; Carpenter is a popular work, by intent. Wakeman (that’s Henry Offley Wakeman, M.A.) is very good (and your quote above is taken from p. 218. The point in my previous post re: the separate actions of Canterbury and York, was drawn from Wakeman, p. 206). I own all of them. However, the Henry quote above is from Arthur Charles Jennings, M. A., ECCLESIA ANGLICANA.. Yes,I own that, too.

GKC
 
GKC

Bringing the Realm back to RCC Authority!

The ,‘authority’, of the Roman Bishop which he exercised in England came from three sources. No Supremacy was claimed by the popes and none was allowed by the state.
Howandever the authority resulted from three separate classes of action undertaken by the pope.

Those of a temporal nature stemmed from the forged Donation of Constantine, by which all the islands of the west were said to belong to the apostolic see and partly from the submission of John to Innocent in 1213.

William the Butcher , repudiated any claim the pope made on him and refused to do homage to him. In 1399 King and Parliament asserted in the statute of `Praemunire that the ,“Church of England,” [note well nothing said about the RCC ,] hath been so free at all times that it hath been in no earthly subjection, but immediately subject to God in all things touched by the regality of the same crown and to none other".
In 1533, Statute of Restraint of Appeals, it was said,“this realm of England is an empire and hath ben so accepted in the world, governed by one supreme head.”

Those of an administative nature were made in virtue of the papal claims to be Head of the Visible Church by Divine Appointment. These were the right to appoint bishops sending legates or appointing them , holding visitations and synods. As well as granting the Pall to metropolitans.As well as taxing appointments and so on! Most of these were not excersised at all before The Norman Conquest and were in fact the payoff for papal support of the invasion and conquest of Britain. Of these the right to send Leegates and hold synods apart from the rights of the crown were never established at all.
Against all of them ,except sending the pall, protests were made against the popes temerity! This by either king or parliament. Indeed William claimed he had the right to decide against rival popes. The Constitutions Of Clarendon under Henry 11nd, the Remonstrances of Parliament against papal taxation as well as a host of later legislation all show the attitude of the English people to the papacy.

These claims made by varius Bishops of Rome were never part of the customs of this Church or Country and were finally repudiated by the Reformation Parliament in 1529, with the acquiescence of the Convocation,re-enacted in the second year of Mary 1554 and
finally abolished under Elizabeth at the beginning of her reign.

*Claims of a spiritual nature were made in virtue of the claims *made by the pope to be head of the visible Church by Divine appointment.

Now, there is nothing in scripture or in Holy Tradition that gives the papacy any rights at all ,either in England or any other place as far as I can see, other than the suburbicarian Churches of Italy and the Islands. These were given the Roman Bishop by either the emperors or the Church Councils!
You talk about bringing ,“the realm back to RCC Authority”?
According Newman, [Pope and the Revolution, 7/10/1866] We were a mere collection of Individuals, Pope Pius has brought us together, given us bishops and created out of us a body politic.

"We are a new mission straight out of Rome,Ours is a new wave of Christianity from Rome.…** In this fact of our not being lineally descended from the pre-Reformation Church** but derived straight from Rome, I see the finger of God. Humphrey S.J. The Divine Teacher.}

In the face of Anglican History and Tradition, I am suprised you depreciate constantly your own Church, however that is your business and you will have to live with it.
 
luckyfredsdad;4956079:
They didn’t affix it merely by their own free will, they affixed it (and did a couple of other things) to frustrate Henry’s intent, in threatening them with Praemunire
. Henry’s original suggested phrase was “the English Church, of which the king alone is protector and supreme head”. Point is, the phrase wasn’t in the Parliamentary Act. A

GKC
The point is that they appended it!

What is it with you, the fact that you have to display your scholarship about trifles or that you want to belittle Christ’s Body on Earth?
You should remember Dean Sewards point to Lady Kynalmeaky,

"Cut no feathers with God Madam, lest you cut more than your fingers."
 
GKC;4956139:
The point is that they appended it!
What is it with you, the fact that you have to display your scholarship about trifles or that you want to belittle Christ’s Body on Earth?
You should remember Dean Sewards point to Lady Kynalmeaky,

"Cut no feathers with God Madam, lest you cut more than your fingers."

If that is your point, it is certainly true. That it was not Henry’s law is equally true. To say that Henry was head, qualified as quantum per Christi legum licet etiam supremum capat, by the act, which is the only sense he was the head, is historically fallacious. Hence I correct the fallacy. Which you posted here, as well as on another board. As with the supposed MacColloch paraphrase, the point is not the trifle of the page number, but that the words you cited not only were inaccurate, but that, to the extent they reflected anything MacCulloch said, they said precisely the opposite that you tried to make them say.

GKC
 
GKC

Bringing the Realm back to RCC Authority!

The ,‘authority’, of the Roman Bishop which he exercised in England came from three sources. No Supremacy was claimed by the popes and none was allowed by the state.
Howandever the authority resulted from three separate classes of action undertaken by the pope.

Those of a temporal nature stemmed from the forged Donation of Constantine, by which all the islands of the west were said to belong to the apostolic see and partly from the submission of John to Innocent in 1213.

William the Butcher , repudiated any claim the pope made on him and refused to do homage to him. In 1399 King and Parliament asserted in the statute of `Praemunire that the ,“Church of England,” [note well nothing said about the RCC ,] hath been so free at all times that it hath been in no earthly subjection, but immediately subject to God in all things touched by the regality of the same crown and to none other".
In 1533, Statute of Restraint of Appeals, it was said,“this realm of England is an empire and hath ben so accepted in the world, governed by one supreme head.”

Those of an administative nature were made in virtue of the papal claims to be Head of the Visible Church by Divine Appointment. These were the right to appoint bishops sending legates or appointing them , holding visitations and synods. As well as granting the Pall to metropolitans.As well as taxing appointments and so on! Most of these were not excersised at all before The Norman Conquest and were in fact the payoff for papal support of the invasion and conquest of Britain. Of these the right to send Leegates and hold synods apart from the rights of the crown were never established at all.
Against all of them ,except sending the pall, protests were made against the popes temerity! This by either king or parliament. Indeed William claimed he had the right to decide against rival popes. The Constitutions Of Clarendon under Henry 11nd, the Remonstrances of Parliament against papal taxation as well as a host of later legislation all show the attitude of the English people to the papacy.

These claims made by varius Bishops of Rome were never part of the customs of this Church or Country and were finally repudiated by the Reformation Parliament in 1529, with the acquiescence of the Convocation,re-enacted in the second year of Mary 1554 and
finally abolished under Elizabeth at the beginning of her reign.

*Claims of a spiritual nature were made in virtue of the claims *made by the pope to be head of the visible Church by Divine appointment.

Now, there is nothing in scripture or in Holy Tradition that gives the papacy any rights at all ,either in England or any other place as far as I can see, other than the suburbicarian Churches of Italy and the Islands. These were given the Roman Bishop by either the emperors or the Church Councils!
You talk about bringing ,“the realm back to RCC Authority”?
According Newman, [Pope and the Revolution, 7/10/1866] We were a mere collection of Individuals, Pope Pius has brought us together, given us bishops and created out of us a body politic.

"We are a new mission straight out of Rome,Ours is a new wave of Christianity from Rome.…** In this fact of our not being lineally descended from the pre-Reformation Church** but derived straight from Rome, I see the finger of God. Humphrey S.J. The Divine Teacher.}

In the face of Anglican History and Tradition, I am suprised you depreciate constantly your own Church, however that is your business and you will have to live with it.
I will endeavor to bear up.

GKC
 
luckyfredsdad;4956228:
, but that the words you cited not only were inaccurate, but that, to the extent they reflected anything MacCulloch said, they said precisely the opposite that you tried to make them say.

GKC
The quote I gave you ,as I told you came from Faith and Worship,No,56. Easter 2005.
That as well as MCulloch bears out my position. You obviously havn’t bothered to look at either references so I’ll quote just one of them from the P/B Magazine."After the nuclear explosionwhich shattered the old Western Church, all fragments recast themselves as the Churches we know today . "In Diarmid MCCulloch’s excellent recent history of the Reformation in Europe, he points out that there were no Roman Catholic in Europe in 1500, with the sole exception of the Kingdom of bohemia, where there were Churches loyal to the pope operating under an establishment which traced its origins to the Hussite Movement. The Roman Church recast itself at the long running Council of Trent and in many ways it was reformed more successfully than the Church of England. [pg.11]
Had you bothered with anything but defending the Romanists, had you any clue about problems of the 16/17th, Cent, as far as Anglicanism was concerned you would have sought more information, instead you condemned the point without knowing anything about it!
 
GKC;4956404:
The quote I gave you ,as I told you came from Faith and Worship,No,56. Easter 2005.
That as well as MCulloch bears out my position. You obviously havn’t bothered to look at either references so I’ll quote just one of them from the P/B Magazine."After the nuclear explosionwhich shattered the old Western Church, all fragments recast themselves as the Churches we know today . "In Diarmid MCCulloch’s excellent recent history of the Reformation in Europe, he points out that there were no Roman Catholic in Europe in 1500, with the sole exception of the Kingdom of bohemia, where there were Churches loyal to the pope operating under an establishment which traced its origins to the Hussite Movement. The Roman Church recast itself at the long running Council of Trent and in many ways it was reformed more successfully than the Church of England. [pg.11]
Had you bothered with anything but defending the Romanists, had you any clue about problems of the 16/17th, Cent, as far as Anglicanism was concerned you would have sought more information, instead you condemned the point without knowing anything about it!
If I hadn’t bothered to look at the reference (MacCulloch), how would I know it’s from p. 37 (in my copy of the American edtion, 1st/1st). Silly, that.

And I not only know what the point was, I gave you the context, way above. It’s not saying what you think it does. And doesn’t use those words. Go and read. It’s in the 2nd paragraph on the page, though you will need to read the previous page, also. Pay especial attention to the sentence beginning “It may at first sight…” Good luck.

GKC
 
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