Why do Anti catholics think Mary had other sons?

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Correct. I’m just saying, he had the right to the marriage bed but he chose not to use it. Same for Mary. It is a blessing some couples are blessed with.
Yes, I think some folks have a hard time with this because the self-giving aspects of marriage are not as well known/considered these days. Also, we are all called to holiness and sacrifice in our lives. Some are asked to sacrifice more than others, but then their rewards are greater. How much greater for Joseph to know that he would be the spiritual father of millions, perhaps billions in lieu of parenting children of his own. He lived a life of heroic sanctity to which God called him for his own purpose.
 
I’m not sure the correction went noticed, unless I am wrong in asserting there seems to be a shift in canon. TimothyH said that if Mary gave consent to Joseph to have sexual relations, she was have been an adulteress and would have been stoned. And now there is the decree that she had the right? Something seems a bit off here.

Which is more authoratative? Or is this one of those allowed disagreements
 
I’m not sure the correction went noticed, unless I am wrong in asserting there seems to be a shift in canon. TimothyH said that if Mary gave consent to Joseph to have sexual relations, she was have been an adulteress and would have been stoned. And now there is the decree that she had the right? Something seems a bit off here.

Which is more authoratative? Or is this one of those allowed disagreements
I too would be interested to see if there is any document supporting the adulteress claim for Joseph and Mary engaging in the marital embrace. For he was told in a dream to have no fear to take Mary as his wife.
 
I too would be interested to see if there is any document supporting the adulteress claim for Joseph and Mary engaging in the marital embrace. For he was told in a dream to have no fear to take Mary as his wife.
Same here. I’d never heard that claim before. Perhaps TimothyH can provide us with his source(s)?
 
Just to clarify your question, it is not only “anti-Catholics” who think Mary had other children (daughters as well as sons, non? As per that one scene in the bible where his “brothers and sisters” were waiting for Jesus as he preached near Bethlehem?)…

Scholars who have studied the bible for decades upon decades and in all its manuscript forms and languages and translations who have no bias either way (ie, they are not “anti” Catholic) and some Christians and non-Christians, too, who have nothing against Catholicism, think it is indeed possible (and some think probable) that Mary had other children with her husband, Joseph.
As per above, lines in the gospels can be interpreted this way…but it doesn’t necessarily mean someone is “anti-Catholic” to think this.

Just wanted to put that out there.
Re: the “brother/sister” argument. All those experts mentioned know that everybody’s close family menber to a Jew was called brother and sister. That’s because there was no word for cousin.

For example

Because neither Hebrew nor Aramaic (the language spoken by Christ and his disciples) had a special word meaning “cousin,” speakers of those languages could use either the word for “brother” or a circumlocution, such as “the son of my uncle.” But circumlocutions are clumsy, so the Jews often used “brother.”

Since the NT was written by Jews who also wrote in Greek, and the OT was also written by Jews who wrote in Greek, (LXX Septuigint) all we have to do is see if adelphos/adelphoi was ever used in a broad Hebrew sense, not in the Greek sense, when they were writing in the Greek.

Example

Gen (LXX) Septuigint
13:8 εἶπεν δὲ Αβραμ τῷ Λωτ μὴ ἔστω μάχη ἀνὰ μέσον ἐμοῦ καὶ σοῦ καὶ ἀνὰ μέσον τῶν ποιμένων μου καὶ ἀνὰ μέσον τῶν ποιμένων σου ὅτι ἄνθρωποι ἀδελφοὶ ἡμεῖς ἐσμεν

Lot and Abram were NOT brothers. Lot was the son of Haran, Abram’s brother. Lot was actually Abrams nephew. Abram was Lot’s uncle. Therefore, the Greek was used there with a broad Hebrew understanding of brother, which did NOT mean absolutely, children from the same womb.

When Abram referred to himself and Lot as brothers/adelphoi a wooden literal translation for brother is not possible.

Greek speaking Jews translated the OT from Hebrew to Greek, as well as the NT. The problem isn’t so much mistranslation as much as it is Jews thinking like Jews when writing in Greek. (people do this when thinking and writing in another language other than one’s native tongue)

For example Re: translations into Greek by Greek speaking Jews

Jews when translating the OT into Greek, knew the relationship of Abram and Lot. They could have used the proper word in Greek thereby correcting the loose Hebrew understanding of brother the Jews had. Lot was NOT brother of Abram. It was really nephew / uncle relationship. But the LXX didn’t correct that when written in Greek. The writers used alelphoi even though there were Greek words that could have been used to be more specific and correct the loose meaning Hebrew had. Therefore, adelphos/adelphoi didn’t have the wooden literal meaning for Jews people who read that passage, think it had. For Jews who wrote these accounts in Greek, brother was a loose term…

Another instance is that of Laban, who was an adelphos to Jacob, not as a brother, but as an uncle. In the New American translation, “kinsman” or “relative” is used in these Old Testament cases;

Another example

Rev 12:17

Mary is being discussed.

"Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring—those who obey God’s commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.(her offspring are considered all those who keep the commandments of God and give testemony to her son Jesus. ) Oy Vey that’s alot of kids :eek: but it works only when speaking metaphorically.
 
I have read many wonderful replies. I will give my two cents worth. A former protestant myself, they are taught that the Blessed Mother was just like every other woman. She was simply a mother that God picked out of many. Many fundamental protestants take a literal view of sacred scripture. So if the KJV of the bible says “brother” or “sister” they accept that as doctrine rather than actually doing research on the matter and forming an educated opinion.

The perpetual virginity of Mary is not an issue to protestants since they simply believe her to be an average woman. Its sad because they actually miss so many of her wonderful blessings. She still bestows her blessings upon them but they do not recognize it.

We, as Catholics, can pray for Her intercession to make her love and truth be known to them so that they may better know and love the Son she humbly gave birth to!
 
Another thing I saw to help disprove this is that when Jesus was on the cross, he gave Mary into the care of John, and told John to take her as his mother. In Jewish tradition, Mary would have been given into the care of the next oldest son, but since Jesus gave Mary to the care of John, it shows that there was no other son! I don’t remember where I heard this but thought it was very good!
 
Hello All,

Mary was definately special (highly favored and not average) among women and most men too. Unlike Moses, Gideon, Jonah, the 12 disciples, etc. She never questioned God’s plan. She never denied Christ, even before He was born.

Whether she was a perpertual virgin or not in my mind does not detract from her perpertual and unswerving faith in God, which is rare amongst us Christians. Otherwise we would all be moving mountains.

I hear the brother vs cousin argument has been going on for generations/centuries?

Food for thought is the following verse from Matthew 1:25 And “knew her not till” she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS. (KJV)

A interesting site that presents another view;
answersingenesis.org/articles/2011/05/31/perpetual-virginity-mary

May God bless us all ! Even non Catholic’s who support this forum.
 
Well, I was born and raised Catholic, so I wouldn’t consider myself someone who would have a hard time grasping catholic distinctives. As to my protestant side, I do not accept sola scriptura, however I do not accept a contemporary infallible teaching which justifies many new teachings which have no source in the apostles. I exist between these two book marks. I have been trying my hardest, with prayer, to be led into the conviction that the Catholic Magesterium is from God, but I am disappointed at times with some of the things which are taught.

I simply cannot look at that Matthew passage and read it any other way. It would be like convincing me 2+2=5.

I really doubt any Catholic scholar or theologian reads it the way you have read it. Grant the “overshadow” meaning, but to say that Joseph knew this to be a marriage and that this is why he refrained at first from marrying her…unbelievably difficult to accept.
I too share your (uhh. … MATTHEW’s) explanation.

DELLA…we are taught to take the literal understanding of scripture first, and only thereafter a secondary allegorical one might apply.

Joseph was clearly trying to protect Mary against claims she was pregnant via sin of pre-marital fornication.
 
What’s the Catholic teaching on age of Joseph, if he had previous marriage with children…who were Jesus’s half brothers/sisters ?
 
The “overshadowing” of Mary would have consecrated her to holy use, much like the Tabernacle in the old Testament. Joseph, being a well trained and devout Jew, would have recognized that Mary was consecrated bodily to God, as the new “living tabernacle”. He wouldn’t have touched her after the birth of Jesus, because of that. Just as the holy things in the tabernacle in the Old Testament were used only for the purpose they were designated, so too Mary. Once consecrated, always consecrated.
 
You have to be consistent with that line of reasoning, such as touching her skin as well would result in death, etc,etc.
 
I was raised Baptist so a lot of this is new to me. My question comes from last Sunday’s scripture reading that says that Jesus is Mary’s first born son. Why would they say first born if He was her only son? Thanks
 
Food for thought is the following verse from Matthew 1:25 And “knew her not till” she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS. (KJV)
My view is, this verse has stress on the virgin birth of Jesus. To extend this verse to mean Joseph and Mary had sexual intercourse, is silly in my opinion. If Matthew had to convey such intention he would have explicitly stated about the sons and daughters of Mary. Also the word “till” or “until” does not imply that it happened afterwards.
“I am with you each and every day until the end of the age” - Matthew 1:25 does not imply Jesus is not with us after the end of the world. Please note the word used in both cases is ‘heōs’.

As jdurant has observed, if Mary had a son, it would have been an outright insult to him when Jesus asked John to take Mary as his mother !
 
I was raised Baptist so a lot of this is new to me. My question comes from last Sunday’s scripture reading that says that Jesus is Mary’s first born son. Why would they say first born if He was her only son? Thanks
The term first born son has theological meaning. Israel is the first born child of God (Exodus 4:22). Under the Mosaic Law, it was the “first-born” son that was to be sanctified. Even if it is their only son, he would be called the first-born. It was the “first-born” son who was the heir to the authority and roles of the father (kingship and priestly). But in several cases we see the first-born sons falling away from the covenant. Adam, Cain, Ishmael, Esau all are examples. It is in this background we see New Covenant as a fulfillment of the Old covenant established through Jesus , the first born Son of God.
 
Well, I was born and raised Catholic, so I wouldn’t consider myself someone who would have a hard time grasping catholic distinctives. As to my protestant side, I do not accept sola scriptura, however I do not accept a contemporary infallible teaching which justifies many new teachings which have no source in the apostles. I exist between these two book marks. I have been trying my hardest, with prayer, to be led into the conviction that the Catholic Magesterium is from God, but I am disappointed at times with some of the things which are taught.

I simply cannot look at that Matthew passage and read it any other way. It would be like convincing me 2+2=5.

I really doubt any Catholic scholar or theologian reads it the way you have read it. Grant the “overshadow” meaning, but to say that Joseph knew this to be a marriage and that this is why he refrained at first from marrying her…unbelievably difficult to accept.
While understand your reasoning, I accept that somehow Our Lady had a sacred bond with the Holy Spirit that probably precluded Joseph from really being married (in a sacramental sense) with her. My main motive is Luke 1:38, which resembles to an acceptance declaration of a vow: «“I am the Lord’s servant,” Mary answered. “May your word to me be fulfilled.”» This clearly establishes a bond between Our Lady and God which, given the consequences that it involves (namely the birth of Our Lord), does not seem to be compatible with the usual marriage and the attached sexual component.

Less problematic is the passage where the Our Lady is called the mother Jesus and other children Jesus’ brothers (which is not the same as calling Our Lady their mother). There is a number of different arguments against this, but to me the key here is the fact that the declaration is intended to diminish Jesus. If you want to diminish someone, you can use a few inaccuracies that are not sufficient to unmask you, but are enough to enhance your point. The speaker’s intention here is to portray Jesus as an ordinary man. We know that families with a single son were rare in those times. The speaker must have been tempted to overlook this aspect. The fact that “brothers” could actually be “cousins” leaves space to admit that he used the slight ambiguity of including “Mary’s son” and “his brothers James, Joseph, etc.” in the same sentence to overlook that aspect about Jesus. If you compare this with all the other passages in the Gospels about Our Lady, without any mention to Mary being the mother of other children, you have to weight the evidence; and to me this would be a no brainer. I would adhere to it anyway because that is a dogma of the Church; but, like all the Church’s dogmas, it is grounded in sound reasoning and the traditions and practices of generations of Christians going back to apostolic times.
 
It is not necessary to read these verses this way. In the end, it is only “possible” to read them in this way, and the actual decision to believe it in this way is determined by one’s submission to the teaching of the Church. Which is not a bad thing, we don’t need to get everything from Scripture.
 
No body really knows if Mary had other children. Nobody living today was there. If she did, it wouldn’t change anything. She wouldn’t be an adulterer, because she was married. It’s something how women have been looked at as lower than man over all these years. I guess they thought this would make Mary look not Holy. This is sad.
 
Personally, I’ve never understood the obsession with Mary’s perpetual virginity. As Joseph’s wife it would not be unreasonable to assume that she had relations with him. Possibly even having children with him. That would not make her a sinner any more than it would make me a sinner for having relations with my husband.

The Church teaches that Mary had no other children. Other denominations suggest that she did. Most don’t regard it as a significant issue. Myself, I just don’t know. In any case, even though Catholics don’t believe it, it is not illogical or unreasonable to be open to the possibility.
Yes!! Thank you. Why is this such a huge issue? And why would Mary somehow be considered “less holy” if she had relations with her husband? Doesn’t make sense. I think holding mere people up on a pedestal is a grave mistake. Yes Mary was chosen and extremely blessed. But she was not perfect. None of us are. That goes for the “saints” as well. Paul was a mass murderer. Peter had a temper and also denied Christ, yet He still used both of them greatly.

(Edited)
 
Yes!! Thank you. Why is this such a huge issue? And why would Mary somehow be considered “less holy” if she had relations with her husband? Doesn’t make sense.
It does make sense–although as a married woman Mary would not have sinned, but by being overshadowed by the Holy Spirit she was no longer an ordinary wife, but the Mother of God (Theotokos=God bearer). As the tabernacle was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit, thus setting it aside for sacred duty, so Mary was consecrated in an even more intimate way.
I think holding mere people up on a pedestal is a grave mistake. Yes Mary was chosen and extremely blessed. But she was not perfect. None of us are. That goes for the “saints” as well. Paul was a mass murderer. Peter had a temper and also denied Christ, yet He still used both of them greatly.
No one is saying that saints didn’t have their faults/sins, but Mary is not an ordinary saint. She was chosen before the world was created to be the Mother of God in the Person of Christ, her Son. She was “full of grace” before she conceived of the Holy Spirit which means she had no desire to sin. She was totally faithful to God in everything she said and did as the Second Eve who bore the Second Adam, who redeemed us, including his mother Mary. So, we can put Mary on a pedestal as the perfect example of what all of us can be and will be when Christ returns and we are resurrected from the dead.
Indeed. We Catholics worship God alone, offering him the one sacrifice of Christ, re-presented in the Eucharist. We give hyperdulia, exalted honor to Mary, and dulia, honor to the saints who led lives of holiness even if they had been the greatest of sinners before they embraced Christ, thus living their lives for Christ. So we definitely agree on this. 🙂 We give latria=worship to God alone. Asking another to pray and aid us is not worship, it is petition, which we can ask of any other Christian, living or dead because all are alive in Christ, especially those in heaven with him.

Everything the Church teaches about Mary tells us something important about her Son. That is the object of Marian doctrines/dogmas. While these do give her honor, they are centered in the person of Christ, his mission, his divinity and his humanity.
 
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