Why do Anti catholics think Mary had other sons?

[Evan]

It does make sense–although as a married woman Mary would not have sinned, but by being overshadowed by the Holy Spirit she was no longer an ordinary wife, but the Mother of God (Theotokos=God bearer). As the tabernacle was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit, thus setting it aside for sacred duty, so Mary was consecrated in an even more intimate way.

Of course, as a true marriage, if Mary and Joseph decided to have additional children, it would not have been a sin, but a blessing. As all children are gifts from God.

Mary never was an ordinary wife. But that did not make her less of a woman or wife. Marriage is a calling, a vocation, from God to raise up children in the faith.

The decision to not have other children was neither good nor bad. It was a decision they made.

The one advantage it gives us is that we have a model of virginity for those people who choose such a life, in or out of marriage. The married life is a sacrament and a higher calling than that of a religious (brother or nun). But if you are not called to a life of marriage, a virginal life is the ideal.

 

[Mark121359]

This is a Catholic forum the last time I checked correct? What do you expect us to say… O.K. you’re right, she had other children? Seriously? Although it does appear that to many Catholics who post here that Mary’s virginity doesn’t seem to matter. But that’s a topic for a different thread. Still, many such as Della, TimothyH, steve b, to name a few have written excellent well thought out posts to explain the Church’s view but to no avail. I get the feeling that Christ himself could appear and say… “Amen I say to you, Behold; Your Mother is, always was and always will be a virgin” and you’ll say… “But Lord!, what about this that’s written in Matthew 13:55-56”… “Or take a look at this Lord what’s written here in Matthew 1:25!”…

 

[Della]

This is a Catholic forum the last time I checked correct? What do you expect us to say… O.K. you’re right, she had other children? Seriously? Although it does appear that to many Catholics who post here that Mary’s virginity doesn’t seem to matter. But that’s a topic for a different thread. Still, many such as Della, TimothyH, steve b, to name a few have written excellent well thought out posts to explain the Church’s view but to no avail. I get the feeling that Christ himself could appear and say… “Amen I say to you, Behold; Your Mother is, always was and always will be a virgin” and you’ll say… “But Lord!, what about this that’s written in Matthew 13:55-56”… “Or take a look at this Lord what’s written here in Matthew 1:25!”…

I understand your frustration. As Catholics who trust the Magisterium and who “get it” it seems simple enough to us, but as a convert I can tell you that breaking through natural (fleshly) sensibilities and misinformation takes time and the working of the Holy Spirit. We can explain, but it’s not our “job” to convince anyone–that’s above our “paygrade”. It’s up to us to present Church teaching as best as we can and then pray. So let us pray that eyes will be opened and hearts touched and let the Holy Spirit do the rest. :tiphat:

 

[Mark121359]

I understand your frustration. As Catholics who trust the Magisterium and who “get it” it seems simple enough to us, but as a convert I can tell you that breaking through natural (fleshly) sensibilities and misinformation takes time and the working of the Holy Spirit. We can explain, but it’s not our “job” to convince anyone–that’s above our “paygrade”. It’s up to us to present Church teaching as best as we can and then pray. So let us pray that eyes will be opened and hearts touched and let the Holy Spirit do the rest. :tiphat:

Oh! You noticed that? And I thought I had it hidden too! …But I understand what you’re saying here, and I completely agree with you!.

Peace, Mark

 

[Hawkiz]

Ok it seems here that you have gone too far out of the clear, in my honest and reasonable opinion. You are reasoning within a box that is built and measured by your own (and I am assuming others as well) desires. I think if you just get outside of this box and think for a few moments and question the foundation of where you get your ideas, then test the veracity of these claims, then re-enter the box to see if you belong there.

Those people who are single live their lives to God (1 Cor 7), not just because they do not have a sexual partner, but because they do not have a partner at all! In other words, they have no obligations for the well being and desires of another, they are only for God. Well, unless Mary ignored Joseph and kept to herself the WHOLE entire time, I think this really doesn’t even apply to her. Moreover, those who are virgins, according to Paul, and who are unmarried, live their lives to God also because they do not have children. However, Mary had children.

There is no reasonable argument that can convince any thinking person that if Mary spent her time honoring her husband day-to-day and that she went through the whole work of being a Parent, she was somehow inadequate to be the mother of Jesus.

Any argument put foward here is really not going to convince anyone.

Like I said, a simple appeal to the Magesterium at this point would be the only thing to suffice. The reasons you are putting forward, as well as those of TimothyH, are hard to find from an authority in the Catholic church.

Allow me to offer you a ‘reasonable argument’: Mary was the new Arc of the Covenant. In Jesus, she carried all of the things that the contents of the Arc represented. Jesus IS our new covenant. In the OT, people were killed - struck down by God Himself - for touching, yes simply touching, the Arc…even when that touching occurred when trying to keep the arc from falling to the ground! Is it therefore so unreasonable that Joseph, a good and law abiding Jew, would NEVER ONCE touch Mary - particularly in a sexual manner? Even within the confines of a loving marriage? Ask yourself: If an angel of God comes to you and reveals to you that your wife to be is going to give birth to God in human form, are you going to then take that woman, whom God has clearly claimed as His, for His purpose, as yours? Not if you respect the Lord. A crude explanation, but a common sense one that has helped me draw closer to Marian theology over the years.

 

[God_Seeker_1]

Some good comments. But I would disagree that TimothyH made any sense. He taught that Mary would have been in mortal sin if she had sex with Joseph. That is simply going way out of any reasoning that I’ve heard from an authority in the catholic church

 

[Church_Militant]

Some good comments. But I would disagree that TimothyH made any sense. He taught that Mary would have been in mortal sin if she had sex with Joseph. That is simply going way out of any reasoning that I’ve heard from an authority in the catholic church

And that is not authoritative Catholic teaching, so we may disregard any such opinions.

My personal thinking…again, without authority, is that both realized who their son was and were far more concerned with discharging the mission they had from God than anything else. After all, both had been visited by angels concerning this, and that is both unique and powerful. The traditional sources also teach that Joseph was a much older man and a widower with children by his 1st wife. That accounts for the brothers and sisters of Jesus passages in the gospel.

You may also disregard my opinion as well though.

 

[webmiesterph]

Just to add to the confusion:

There is actually a cult which believes they are the descendants of Mary’s other children. They claim she had 7 other children and they have their tombs and all to show for it.

Of course, I doubt if these claims are true as it is easy to just dig out graves and claim to belong to so-and-so.

Many protestants friends who discover Mary’s virginity find that she is a perfect example of love and obedience.

 

[nute]

Mary wasn’t perfect… Yes she is. Prove to me that the spiritual mother of humanity isn’t perfect.

To tell God almighty that He didn’t create Mary sinless is to test him and that is forbidden.

The thought of Mary having children by Joseph is a fascinating one, but it is also a futile one because this didn’t happen. Joseph and Mary were disciplined because they were both strengthened by God. God the Holy Spirit arranged for Jesus to be suitably brought into the world we know, the word made flesh, fully God and fully man.

Mary is sinless, Joseph was not. Imagine being the God man’s actual brother stained by original sin. Seems like a theological nightmare to me. What would be God’s purpose for this? Jesus has always existed by the way, so it is impossible to be His brother in the sense that we use the term brother today. No man can be cut from the same cloth as Jesus Christ so to speak. Have no other gods before me is a commandment.

Mary ever virgin is infallible chuch teaching. Catholics have to accept it and should happily. Besides, didn’t Mary say at Fatima, which is approved, “I am the Immaculate Conception?” Don’t have to look 2k years into church history to know the answer to the question, did Christ have brothers or sisters. Look at Fatima please. Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but I think Mary herself has revealed herself as ever virgin in recent history.

 

[peipappy]

No body really knows if Mary had other children. Nobody living today was there. If she did, it wouldn’t change anything. She wouldn’t be an adulterer, because she was married. It’s something how women have been looked at as lower than man over all these years. I guess they thought this would make Mary look not Holy. This is sad.

In reality sombody does know if our other Mary had other children. That sombody is the heir of the faith, the Catholic Church. The church does not rely on scriptures alone to pass on the faith, but also relys on the teachings of the Apostles and the early church fathers. First hand witnesses. They teach that the Mother of God remaimed a virgin all her life. No reason not to believe them. They were there and the Church has passed along that message for two thousand years. End of story. It has nothing to do with putting Mary on a pedestal or installing false pillars to shore up the faith. It is the truth. plain and simple. The fact that so many Catholics here can’t seem to grasp that is what’s really sad.

 

[105lynne]

Mary wasn’t perfect… Yes she is. Prove to me that the spiritual mother of humanity isn’t perfect.

To tell God almighty that He didn’t create Mary sinless is to test him and that is forbidden.

The thought of Mary having children by Joseph is a fascinating one, but it is also a futile one because this didn’t happen. Joseph and Mary were disciplined because they were both strengthened by God. God the Holy Spirit arranged for Jesus to be suitably brought into the world we know, the word made flesh, fully God and fully man.

Mary is sinless, Joseph was not. Imagine being the God man’s actual brother stained by original sin. Seems like a theological nightmare to me. What would be God’s purpose for this? Jesus has always existed by the way, so it is impossible to be His brother in the sense that we use the term brother today. No man can be cut from the same cloth as Jesus Christ so to speak. Have no other gods before me is a commandment.

Mary ever virgin is infallible chuch teaching. Catholics have to accept it and should happily. Besides, didn’t Mary say at Fatima, which is approved, “I am the Immaculate Conception?” Don’t have to look 2k years into church history to know the answer to the question, did Christ have brothers or sisters. Look at Fatima please. Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but I think Mary herself has revealed herself as ever virgin in recent history.

She referred to herself as the “Immaculate Conception” at Lourdes with St. Bernarette in 1858 .

 

[Evan]

Mary is sinless, Joseph was not. Imagine being the God man’s actual brother stained by original sin. Seems like a theological nightmare to me. What would be God’s purpose for this? Jesus has always existed by the way, so it is impossible to be His brother in the sense that we use the term brother today. No man can be cut from the same cloth as Jesus Christ so to speak. Have no other gods before me is a commandment.

I don’t think it is up to us to judge the sinfulness of St Joseph. We have no information leading us to believe he was without Original Sin, but as to actual sin (ie sin as a result of his action) we don’t know. We are not to judge others, only their actions. Are there some actions of Joseph that lead you to believe he sinned? We know so little about him.

Many people die without ever committing an actual sin. All those who die before reaching the age of reason. So it is not impossible.

It seems presumptuous to judge a member of the Holy Family and the earthly father of our Lord, the man who formed Him as a human father should.

 

[guanophore]

Yes!!  Thank you.  Why is this such a huge issue?

Because the perpetual virginity of the Mother of God is part of the once for all divine deposit of faith that was passed down to us from the Apostles. We are not at liberty to start unravelling this seamless garment. Once a thread is removed, the One Faith is compromised.

And why would Mary somehow be considered “less holy” if she had relations with her husband? Doesn’t make sense.

There are many excellent threads here at CAF explaining this point. Celibacy is considered an even higher calling than marriage. Mary was already espoused by the Holy Spirit when Joseph was commanded by God to take her into his home. He knew that she had already procreated with Another.

I think holding mere people up on a pedestal is a grave mistake.

That doesn’t sound very biblical for a “bible Christian”.

1 Tim 5:17

17 Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching;

Jesus said that His mother was blessed because of the privilege of carrying Him and nursing Him, but even more blessed because she heard His Word and followed it.

Yes Mary was chosen and extremely blessed. But she was not perfect. None of us are. That goes for the “saints” as well. Paul was a mass murderer. Peter had a temper and also denied Christ, yet He still used both of them greatly.

(Edited)

God has perfected these imperfected persons. It is He who makes them perfect.

Heb 10:14-15
14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

 

[Cabo30]

Because the perpetual virginity of the Mother of God is part of the once for all divine deposit of faith that was passed down to us from the Apostles. We are not at liberty to start unravelling this seamless garment. Once a thread is removed, the One Faith is compromised.

There are many excellent threads here at CAF explaining this point. Celibacy is considered an even higher calling than marriage. Mary was already espoused by the Holy Spirit when Joseph was commanded by God to take her into his home. He knew that she had already procreated with Another.

That doesn’t sound very biblical for a “bible Christian”.

1 Tim 5:17

17 Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching;

Jesus said that His mother was blessed because of the privilege of carrying Him and nursing Him, but even more blessed because she heard His Word and followed it.

God has perfected these imperfected persons. It is He who makes them perfect.

Heb 10:14-15
14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

Okay first of all do any of you speak English? Or do you all insist on sounding like you walked straight out of the 1500’s? My gosh, I am actually embarrassed to be talking about some of these ridiculous things and I know none of you walk around talking like this so try for a minute if you can to sound like the human beings you are and come back down to earth for a minute. Mary was married to the Holy Spirit??? SERIOUSLY!!! What kind of blasphemous teaching are you being fed?! I challenge you all to go forget everything you were ever taught and read the Bible for yourself. Ask the Holy Spirit to guide you and read it like you’ve never read or heard it before. Since I know none of you will likely do that, I will just tell you that you more than likely would NEVER draw these conclusions from scripture. I cannot even imagine what God must think about half the things I’ve read on here.

If nothing else, you all have officially convinced me that the Catholic church has serious issues and errors that need to be both addressed and rebuked. I wonder no more why Protestants broke off like they did. And I can see why your deep rooted “traditions” breed such controversy.

And since I know this post of mine will fuel a lot of passionate responses, know that I won’t be responding to them. Like I said, I’ve heard enough on this subject and I almost feel sinful even discussing such nonsense. There is nothing else to say other than I am so disappointed to find the Catholic “teachings” are so much farther out than I ever originally thought.

 

[Jamesgart]

There was no full consensus on the doctrine of perpetual virginity within the Church by the end of the second century. That idea developed in the third century. Religious people seeking to honor Mary with the title "Ever Virgin, does not add one iota to Christ’s deity. It would be a myth to believe Mary was beyond or more then human. Maybe we will all find out in the end.

 

[jon_hansen]

Martin Luther said something like this to his followers “don’t call yourselves Lutherans, but Christians”. I don’t believe for a second that when we get to heaven that the Catholics will be on one side and the Protestants the other! What counts always is the gospel of Jesus Christ and what we each do with it. Mother Teresa, made perfect only in Christ, would be a prime example of this and Christ’s love displayed for us on this earth.
Was Mary born sinless? In my biblical knowledge there was only one born sinless, who I can put on that pedestal, and that was Mary’s first born son. About Mary’s sin after she was born (normal human parents, I assume) only God knows. (sorry, I wasn’t raised Catholic)
Someone stated that God does not like being tested? Malachi 3:10, God does allow us to test Him. In fact, He dares you to test Him !

 

[guanophore]

Okay first of all do any of you speak English?

Yes, but like any specific field, there are many words peculiar to theology that mean something different when used in this context, or that come from Greek, Latin, German or other langauges that have influenced the field of theology.

If there are any words you don’t know, and looking them up is not helpful, it is good to say so. Some terms, like sola scriptura (a Latin term coined during the Protestant Reformation) mean different things to different groups, so can be very confusing.

Or do you all insist on sounding like you walked straight out of the 1500’s? My gosh, I am actually embarrassed to be talking about some of these ridiculous things and I know none of you walk around talking like this so try for a minute if you can to sound like the human beings you are and come back down to earth for a minute.

What are you embarrassed about?

Mary was married to the Holy Spirit??? SERIOUSLY!!!

Marriage is a condition that is peculiear to human beings, and it does not apply to non-corporeal (that means non-physical ) planes or persons, such as the Holy Spirit. However the phrase “He overshadowed her” is a Hebraism (Jewish way of talking) that refers to sexual intercourse. But no, we don’t believe that the HS had any kind of sexual intercourse with Mary, but that He caused her to become impregnated with Jesus.

What kind of blasphemous teaching are you being fed?! I challenge you all to go forget everything you were ever taught and read the Bible for yourself.

Actually, this practice is the main cause of the blasphemeous teaching that is rampant througout Christendome today. The Bible must be read in context to be properly understood, and the context of it is the Catholic Church. It should not be read apart from the Teachings of the Apostles that produced it.

Ask the Holy Spirit to guide you and read it like you’ve never read or heard it before.

Yes, this is a good practice to use every day.

Since I know none of you will likely do that, I will just tell you that you more than likely would NEVER draw these conclusions from scripture.

I think you are right. Some of the conclusions of people that read the Bible apart from the faith that produced it come up with some very bizarre ideas that are completetly different from what the Apostles believed and taught, such as Mary having other children, for example.

I cannot even imagine what God must think about half the things I’ve read on here.

God has revealed His mind to His One Church, so this is the best place to come to find out!

If nothing else, you all have officially convinced me that the Catholic church has serious issues and errors that need to be both addressed and rebuked.

I hope you don’t take on such a mission here. CAF is not here so that you can tell is our “issues and errors” or so you can rebuke Catholics. We are happy to discuss our differences with you, but we are not at liberty to abandon our faith just becuase you don’t understand or accept it.

I wonder no more why Protestants broke off like they did. And I can see why your deep rooted “traditions” breed such controversy.

Then your trip here has been worthwhile! Actually, you would probably be surprised to learn that the Reformers held to the same Marian doctrines we do. They all believed that Mary was a perpetual virgin.

And since I know this post of mine will fuel a lot of passionate responses, know that I won’t be responding to them. Like I said, I’ve heard enough on this subject and I almost feel sinful even discussing such nonsense.

LOL.

I guess that would make it hard to broaden your understanding of other’s differences. Nobody here is going to press the Apostolic Faith upon you.

There is nothing else to say other than I am so disappointed to find the Catholic “teachings” are so much farther out than I ever originally thought.

I understand. I will pray for you.

 

[guanophore]

 There was no full consensus on the doctrine of perpetual virginity within the Church by the end of the second century. That idea developed in the third century.

You are right, there were large portions of civilization that never met the Apostles or heard their teaching directly, so they did not have the benefit of persons who had personally known Mary, and knew she did not have any other children.

The canon of Scripture, the Trinity, and the hypostatic union were also hotly contested in the first three centurues of the Church. In the end, the Holy Spirit, who always leads the Bride in triumph, led the Church into All Truth in each of these areas.

Religious people seeking to honor Mary with the title "Ever Virgin, does not add one iota to Christ’s deity.

Actually, that is the very reason it is done. We understand her to be be the Ark of the New covenant.

It would be a myth to believe Mary was beyond or more then human. Maybe we will all find out in the end.

Yes, and I would go so far as to say a sin, or an apostasy. Mary is the fulfillment of all that God intends for humanity, but she is just a creature.

God did not leave such important elements of salvation to ignroance, though. He has revealed the Truth to the Church, so that we can all embrace the Truth.

 

[Marika_X]

One problem is the Greek word translated “until” in English, from the verse saying Joseph knew her not until after the birth of Christ. The problem is that the Greek word isn’t used the same way as the English word. In Greek (I’m Greek) we can say things like, “He disowned his daughter and didn’t see her again until he died.” He obviously didn’t see her after he died. “Until” in this case means “up to that point”, and doesn’t mean that there was a change afterwards.

 

[God_Seeker_1]

Because the perpetual virginity of the Mother of God is part of the once for all divine deposit of faith that was passed down to us from the Apostles. We are not at liberty to start unravelling this seamless garment. Once a thread is removed, the One Faith is compromised.

There are many excellent threads here at CAF explaining this point. Celibacy is considered an even higher calling than marriage. Mary was already espoused by the Holy Spirit when Joseph was commanded by God to take her into his home. He knew that she had already procreated with Another.

That doesn’t sound very biblical for a “bible Christian”.

1 Tim 5:17

17 Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching;

Jesus said that His mother was blessed because of the privilege of carrying Him and nursing Him, but even more blessed because she heard His Word and followed it.

God has perfected these imperfected persons. It is He who makes them perfect.

Heb 10:14-15
14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

Why is Celibacy more honorable than marriage? Well, because the one who is married lives for his wife or husband, but he/she who is not married thinks of the things of God. But Mary had both Joseph to care for and Jesus to raise. Doesn’t really apply.