Why do Atheists/Agnostics come to CAF?

  • Thread starter Thread starter josie_L
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
estesbob said:
Actaully you can-can you name the state, counting the furthest apendage, is the furtherst South?
Click to expand...
Hawaii, isn’t it?

I was talking about culturally though. “south” meaning the cultural definition. You’re right though, geographically, Hawaii has us beat.
 
Nebogipfel said:
I can’t speak for anyone else, but personally I drop into CAF every so often to see if I can get a handle on what Catholics and Christians believe and why they believe.
Click to expand...
But why is it important to know? And didn’t you say you were once a Catholic?
Josie, you seem to think that such an understanding is impossible unless one is prepared to actually agree with these beliefs. That, I certainly don’t understand. Surely you don;t reject the beliefs of Protestants and (say) Hindu’s without understanding them - do you?
Click to expand...
If I reject something I do not believe is true (through study and reading), I will not proceed to go, for example, to a Hindu or Protestant forum to tell them what I think and why they are wrong. Furthermore, the position of an atheist is even more precarious as there is no concrete way of knowing through reason alone that God does not exist. And as a theist I have more in common with a Hindu and/or Protestant than with an atheist.
I am not interested in undermining anyone’s faith, or ridiculing their believes, for the sheer heck of it. But this is a forum where non-Catholics and Catholics can discuss each other’s beliefs, isn’t it? I have just had at least two people tell me that I will “burn in Hell” because I do not believe in a god. By contrast, me just saying that think all religious belief is, in the end, myth and superstition seems to be rather mild.
Click to expand...
Did they specifically say you were going to hell or were they making generalizations about atheists without creating distinctions (this is in the “what happens to Atheists after death” thread, correct)? I know that the Cathechism says we cannot judge the heart or the motives of a person, only God can know the reasons as to why someone is Atheist. Futhermore, if you were to be the cause of someone losing their faith in God I would not consider that mild as you have put that person’s soul in jeopardy. And calling my religious beliefs a myth or superstition is ridiculing.
As for having an open mind - believing any old stuff you read on the internet is not being open minded…
Click to expand...
Yes, that’s exactly what I meant by open-minded. :rolleyes:
 
josie_L said:
And moreover “hopelessly” is a word I would refrain from using because you have no sure way of knowing I’m wrong, you can only surmise based on your opinions that are limited in scope.
Click to expand...
I do have a way of “knowing” you’re wrong, and I do know your wrong.
 
AJTheMan said:
Hawaii, isn’t it?

I was talking about culturally though. “south” meaning the cultural definition. You’re right though, geographically, Hawaii has us beat.
Click to expand...
I have been about as far south in La as one can get-went to visit Ft Jackson once.
 
Sorry Yankee Doodle Dandy - my response was NOT aimed at you, but at other believers, Catholic and Non-Catholic alike. It’s much easier to break things down and throw stones than build things up and actually achieve something. So my response was to tell others to not raise their blood pressure by bothering to engage or entertain your comments.

But you are not alone, Yankee Doodle Dandy, there are many powerful people that have your belief system. And they do very well. Grace and Bobby Mugabe, to name but 2.
 
josie_L said:
But why is it important to know? And didn’t you say you were once a Catholic?
Click to expand...
I find it’s generally better to know things than not to know them. I know what I believed when I was a Catholic. I no longer hold those beliefs to be true, for various reasons. But perhaps I’m wrong about that. Perhaps I completely misunderstood what my Catholic upbringing was trying to tell me. I doubt it, but you never know.

But you seem to be saying that it’s either/or. Either I wholheartedly embrace Catholicism, or I shake the dust from my feet and never darken the door of a church again. That seems scarcely reasonable.
If I reject something I do not believe is true (through study and reading), I will not proceed to go, for example, to a Hindu or Protestant forum to tell them what I think and why they are wrong.
Click to expand...
(slightly tongue in cheek) Are you not under an injunction to go out and make disciples of the whole world? What is missionary work, if not going and telling people how and why they are wrong about god?

Well, atheists are humans too; I can’t see that the behaviour of the average athiest on religious forums is any worse or any better than the average believer on atheist forums.
Furthermore, the position of an atheist is even more precarious as there is no concrete way of knowing through reason alone that God does not exist.
Click to expand...
We cannot know, no. We cannot anything with 100.0% certainty. But we do have ways of investigating religious claims about the world to see if they might be right. From where I stand, when religious claims are investigated, either scientifically or intellectually, they don’t stack up. You’re under no obligation to take any notice of what I think.

If we’re discussing our views on religion, should I just keep quiet for fear of upsetting people?
And as a theist I have more in common with a Hindu and/or Protestant than with an atheist.
Click to expand...
But Hindu’s and Protestants are still “wrong”, are they not?
Did they specifically say you were going to hell or were they making generalizations about atheists without creating distinctions (this is in the “what happens to Atheists after death” thread, correct)?
Click to expand...
Yeah, that’s the one I had in mind 😉
I know that the Cathechism says we cannot judge the heart or the motives of a person, only God can know the reasons as to why someone is Atheist. Futhermore, if you were to be the cause of someone losing their faith in God I would not consider that mild as you have put that person’s soul in jeopardy.
Click to expand...
Well, I can’t be responsible for the souls of others, particularly as, as far as I can see, no such things exist.

Muslims would say that Christians proselytising in Islamic countries are putting souls in exactly the same kind of jeopardy. The only way to avoid that kind of jeopardy is never to examine one’s faith, and not allow it to face any challenge whatsoever. Do you think that’s a healthy attitude to have?
And calling my religious beliefs a myth or superstition is ridiculing.
Click to expand...
It;s not intended as such. It’s merely a statement of fact, as I see it. I regret if that causes offence. It’s a bit odd that you want to talk to atheists about their views, but complain that you don’t like what you hear. But surely, a faith that has survived 2000 years of persecution, civil war and social upheaval can stand up to being called myth and superstition?
 
Charmian said:
Sorry Yankee Doodle Dandy - my response was NOT aimed at you, but at other believers, Catholic and Non-Catholic alike. It’s much easier to break things down and throw stones than build things up and actually achieve something. So my response was to tell others to not raise their blood pressure by bothering to engage or entertain your comments.
Click to expand...
you mean because they’ll be inevitably frustrated because I understand what I’m talking about (and won’t be duped by Christian apologists)?
But you are not alone, Yankee Doodle Dandy, there are many powerful people that have your belief system. And they do very well. Grace and Bobby Mugabe, to name but 2.
Click to expand...
The most prominent founding fathers held views similar to my own, some of the greatest enlightenment thinkers held views close to my own, Winston Churchill was agnostic, so I know I’m in good company.
 
yankee_doodle said:
I believe in objective truth, which necessarily implies objective falsity. Religion is objectively false.
Click to expand...
Yankee, if you’re wrong about their not being a God (rather you believe it’s highly improbable) than everything else that follows will be tainted by this belief. And again, you can’t know for sure (even if you believe in objective truth) because your understanding is limited in scope.
 
josie_L said:
Yankee, if you’re wrong about their not being a God (rather you believe it’s highly improbable) than everything else that follows will be tainted by this belief. And again, you can’t know for sure (even if you believe in objective truth) because your understanding is limited in scope.
Click to expand...
I’m not talking about god (or if there really is a power beyond our awareness, whatever form it might take). I’m talking about “religion” (including all forms of Christianity). When lawyers build a legal case, sometimes all they have to rely on is circumstantial evidence. However, when there’s enough circumstantial evidence saying something is true or untrue, it becomes unreasonable to believe anything to the contrary.

Circumstantial evidence isn’t just tangible items, it looks at patterns of conduct, motive, probability, state of mind, and I imagine thousands of other factors. When religion is exposed to this sort of examination, it’s clearly “unreasonable” to believe its claims.

When something can be shown false beyond a reasonable doubt, it’s accurate to say it’s objectively false.
 
yankee_doodle said:
I’m not talking about god (or if there really is a power beyond our awareness, whatever form it might take). I’m talking about “religion” (including all forms of Christianity). When lawyers build a legal case, sometimes all they have to rely on is circumstantial evidence. However, when there’s enough circumstantial evidence saying something is true or untrue, it becomes unreasonable to believe anything to the contrary.

Circumstantial evidence isn’t just tangible items, it looks at patterns of conduct, motive, probability, state of mind, and I imagine thousands of other factors. When religion is exposed to this sort of examination, it’s clearly “unreasonable” to believe its claims.

When something can be shown false beyond a reasonable doubt, it’s accurate to say it’s objectively false.
Click to expand...
Yet I and billions of others look at the same set of facts, patterns of conduct, motives, etc and come to the conclusion that the only possible expa,ntion for the worl around us is a God. I then, and billions of tohers, look at the wrtings and teachings of others over the last 2,000 years, people far more inteeligent tan me and come to bleive that this God sent his son to save us and founded a Church to guide us.

I find that far more diffucult to beleive that all the intricacies and beauty of life we observe is the result of happenstance resulting from a primordial fart some 4 billion years ago-a fart generated from hydorgeon and triggerd by energy that no one can explain how it was in existence in the first place.

It is easy to mock that that one does not understand. You have offered no basis for your non-beleif other than you are “smarter” than the rest of us. Pehaps living in the Notheast imparted wisdom to you far greater than the rest of us peons have -or perhaps you are wrong.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top