Why do Atheists/Agnostics come to CAF?

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Josie L:
Originally Posted by theistgal
Heh … what I’d really like to know is how many Catholics come to CAF and leave as Atheists or Agnostics due to some of the bad (not to mention uncharitable) apologetics they encounter.

Not to burst your bubble here, but your attitude I have remarked on many occasions borders on the sarcastic.
Sarcastic or not it was still pretty funny. 🙂 Either way he makes a good point, now I’m wondering.
 
I don’t see how allowing a woman who is likely going through a period of despair legal access to abortion, who would probably seek out an abortion through illicit means if the procedure weren’t safely and legally available, will affect American families one way or the other. Moreover, I’m not sure how allowing gay marriage could possibly impact families.

The problem is you guys invent a nexus where one doesn’t exist; and then accuse us of being anti-family for simply reminding folks that nexus you’re creating is fictitious.

Isn’t it usually liberals (who tend to be less religious) who fight for initiatives like the medical and family leave act, the Americans with disabilities act, etc.? These provide real assistance to families, whereas the nexus between abortion or gay rights and family is more than just sketchy … it doesn’t exist. We strive to achieve robust individual rights while preserving and helping foster the American family. There doesn’t need to be conflict between the two (and indeed that conflict only exists in the minds of religious zealots).
I did not ask you to delineate what I thought or how you thought we were wrong or how liberals are better at preserving the family than conservatives . . . but what you yourself believed on the matter (without having to criticize anything or anyone, is that possible)?
 
😦
Not to burst your bubble here, but your attitude I have remarked on many occasions borders on the sarcastic.
Hi, Miss Pot - I’m Ma Kettle! 😃

Fortunately, I believe in a God who welcomes questions and has a good sense of humor. (Hey - he made me, didn’t he? nyuk nyuk :rolleyes: )
 
I feel the need to add one more category: those who feed off of, and love, drama. Of course, that sickness could be found on both sides of the debate.

I used to be an atheist, so I can see where they are coming from (except for those who just love the drama and the “everyone else is stupid but me” mindset). They come here usually out of curiousity–why do we believe what we believe? And maybe we should take heed here. Be clear on what we believe, and put it into practice in our daily lives–our own “Calcuttas,” as Mother Theresa would say.

Just a thought…
I just stumbled upon this thread–haven’t read it all–I am Catholic but I feel that I have more in common with the non-Catholics here because I am treated poorly in the threads by judgemental Catholics who disagree with me. I am vegan and have strong feelings about being a good steward and taking care of the Earth and not abusing it. I am opposed to factory farming and other cruelties to animals. I love St. Francis and all the other vegetarian saints.

I think that Catholics who come here can learn something from the non-Catholics (imagine that)–and can put their good faith into action, be courteous, understanding and caring, and especially to the non-Catholics. Being judgemental will come back and bite you in the butt.

And the drama junkies…you got that right!!!

Sorry fellow Catholics, but you have to stop the snarkiness to the non-Catholics, and to your fellow Catholics as well. And I am sorry if I generalized or over-simplified. There are a lot of great Catholics here–but the sour ones spoil it for everyone. Debate and discussion are good things, and we can all learn from that.

And Josie, who started this thread–open your door and windows–you never know what may flutter in…
 
I just stumbled upon this thread–haven’t read it all–I am Catholic but I feel that I have more in common with the non-Catholics here because I am treated poorly in the threads by judgemental Catholics who disagree with me. I am vegan and have strong feelings about being a good steward and taking care of the Earth and not abusing it. I am opposed to factory farming and other cruelties to animals. I love St. Francis and all the other vegetarian saints.

I think that Catholics who come here can learn something from the non-Catholics (imagine that)–and can put their good faith into action, be courteous, understanding and caring, and especially to the non-Catholics. Being judgemental will come back and bite you in the butt.

And the drama junkies…you got that right!!!

Sorry fellow Catholics, but you have to stop the snarkiness to the non-Catholics, and to your fellow Catholics as well. And I am sorry if I generalized or over-simplified. There are a lot of great Catholics here–but the sour ones spoil it for everyone. Debate and discussion are good things, and we can all learn from that.

And Josie, who started this thread–open your door and windows–you never know what may flutter in…
I have nothing against Atheists/Agnostics Marfran, I actually befriended a couple, however, I feel that my sentiments are valid as I have spent the better part of 5 months conversing (kindly) with them. And I’m not quite sure what you mean as a Catholic by asking me to “open my door and windows”?
 
Well, just to throw my $0.02 out there… I come here for 2 reasons:
  1. I try to get both sides of any debate, hence I come here as well as atheist forums. I come to this specific one because you guys are generally not insane like some other forums I’ve seen. 😉
  2. It’s interesting. As an analogy, lets say you discovered a forum where lots of people believe in a magical flying pumpkin. Would you not be interested in why they would believe such a thing? To be frank, I like poking you guys with a metaphorical stick.
 
I did not ask you to delineate what I thought or how you thought we were wrong or how liberals are better at preserving the family than conservatives . . . but what you yourself believed on the matter (without having to criticize anything or anyone, is that possible)?
OK, my beliefs are shaped by efficiency. What works best in terms of promoting the highest possible per capita income, inspiring scientific advancement, creating the best possible environment in terms of public welfare and safety, and personal happiness. So far the Scandinavians are in the lead (they just are). If believing in a giant spaghetti monster proved to be the most efficient system, I’d probably support it (even though I know there’s no such thing as a giant spaghetti monster).

I do try to see both sides of this issue. For instance I saw a guy who was no doubt an advocate for the health insurance industry give a TV interview. He said that Obama’s approach is flawed because he seeks to attack price (payments to providers) whereas in this guys view redundant care and bloated administrative overhead is the real problem. Then the guy proceeded to create this sort of giant slippery slope.

His view of the liberal perspective is essentially that they view economics as a zero sum game (which is a valid critique in my view). Right now we have a system that serves roughly 80-85% of all Americans very well. Do we want to sacrifice that model for the sake of the 15-20% who are left out of the current system?

Obama proposes a government run alternative that would compete with private insurance. The fear among those who oppose his plan is it would force many businesses to opt for the government plan (since they couldn’t compete otherwise). Then, as we see now with Medicare and Medicaid, many providers will wind up not accepting the government plan The slippery slope would wind up looking something like the reverse of what we have now. They believe that we could see a system where only 20% of our citizens are insured by private insurance companies (obviously the wealthiest among us), and 80% covered by a sub-standard government insurance plan. In other words sacrifice the middle class for the sake of a much smaller lower and working class.

Obama (and his minions) have analogized his plan to the post office. A no frills alternative that will keep private insurance rates in check (but won’t result in bleeding the current system dry of all its customers).

Is this slippery slope that Obamacare opponents paint valid? I don’t know; but I do know prospective slippery slopes are often drummed up to create unfounded fear in people. However, this slippery slope does have some merits (it’s not a purely speculative slippery slope like if we allow gay marriage we will ruin the American family, which is just preposterous). In fact on its face I’m inclined to side with the opposition. Obama’s plan sounds like a bad idea for one simple reason. His analogy to the post office is invalid since Medicare and Medicaid give us a real idea of what government run health insurance looks like (since they are, well, government run insurance plans).

Anyway, I don’t call myself anything (politically). I’m for what works. As for religion, I think believing in god-men who rose from the dead, men who acted as a conduit for a god, channeling that power into feats like dividing oceans, turning rivers into blood, and all the rest is absurd (and not something as an intelligent adult I’m willing to give serious consideration to). Did some sort of higher power have a hand in creating the universe? Who the heck knows … I’m just smart enough to know religion is silly. Beyond that I don’t pretend to have answers to age old questions that have perplexed man since we evolved into intelligent creatures.
 
Being judgemental will come back and bite you in the butt.
I too believe being judgmental is wrong. However, I also don’t believe in any sort of karmic justice. It’s like when some religion lunatic kills an abortion doctor. Some religious zealots might think its divine justice of some sort. I know, in fact, it was just a religious wacko who committed murder. No divine anything, no devil who made him do it, just the wacko, his twisted mind, and some sort of weapon.

In other words, **** happens for no particular reason. If there’s a bunch of little coincidences in your life that look like divine intervention, it’s either because other people are messing with you, you’re sort of crazy, or you’re predisposed to viewing everything through a mystical lens (or some other rational explanation).

I was watching a show about haunted houses. They literally had a video taken in the home showing the bed shaking around while this ghost buster (for lack of a better word) was in the bedroom. I was shouting turn that darn bed upside down and find the device causing that mattress to move. It’s probably some schemer trying to devalue the house so he can snatch it up at a bargain. To my surprise the group easily accepted a mystical explanation without opening closets, removing the mattress from the bed, etc. (simple actions that would have probably exposed the cause of this so called haunting). I wondered what a worthless bunch of ghost busters. So of course they called in a priest who performed a bizarre ritual on the home; and it was left there (no further exploration into the event).

I was left wondering how many such events are floating around out there? Perhaps I’m too skeptical … who knows 🙂
 
Well, just to throw my $0.02 out there… I come here for 2 reasons:
  1. I try to get both sides of any debate, hence I come here as well as atheist forums. I come to this specific one because you guys are generally not insane like some other forums I’ve seen. 😉
  2. It’s interesting. As an analogy, lets say you discovered a forum where lots of people believe in a magical flying pumpkin. Would you not be interested in why they would believe such a thing? To be frank, I like poking you guys with a metaphorical stick.
And we like to poke back. 😉
 
And we like to poke back. 😉
I can take your bullets :):)🙂

I was working out today & found myself reverting to old habits (in my younger days I entertained religion). I started feeling pain, and said in my mind the man upstairs must be reminding me I’m human. Within a second (or less) I came to my senses; and reminded myself pain is only weakness leaving the body. Then I proceeded to successfully complete my workout at an even higher intensity & did an extra weight routine (I hadn’t planned on doing) to boot.

Knowing I have no invisible friend always makes me stronger.
 
OK, my beliefs are shaped by efficiency. What works best in terms of promoting the highest possible per capita income, inspiring scientific advancement, creating the best possible environment in terms of public welfare and safety, and personal happiness. So far the Scandinavians are in the lead (they just are). If believing in a giant spaghetti monster proved to be the most efficient system, I’d probably support it (even though I know there’s no such thing as a giant spaghetti monster).

I do try to see both sides of this issue. For instance I saw a guy who was no doubt an advocate for the health insurance industry give a TV interview. He said that Obama’s approach is flawed because he seeks to attack price (payments to providers) whereas in this guys view redundant care and bloated administrative overhead is the real problem. Then the guy proceeded to create this sort of giant slippery slope.

His view of the liberal perspective is essentially that they view economics as a zero sum game (which is a valid critique in my view). Right now we have a system that serves roughly 80-85% of all Americans very well. Do we want to sacrifice that model for the sake of the 15-20% who are left out of the current system?

Obama proposes a government run alternative that would compete with private insurance. The fear among those who oppose his plan is it would force many businesses to opt for the government plan (since they couldn’t compete otherwise). Then, as we see now with Medicare and Medicaid, many providers will wind up not accepting the government plan The slippery slope would wind up looking something like the reverse of what we have now. They believe that we could see a system where only 20% of our citizens are insured by private insurance companies (obviously the wealthiest among us), and 80% covered by a sub-standard government insurance plan. In other words sacrifice the middle class for the sake of a much smaller lower and working class.

Obama (and his minions) have analogized his plan to the post office. A no frills alternative that will keep private insurance rates in check (but won’t result in bleeding the current system dry of all its customers).

Is this slippery slope that Obamacare opponents paint valid? I don’t know; but I do know prospective slippery slopes are often drummed up to create unfounded fear in people. However, this slippery slope does have some merits (it’s not a purely speculative slippery slope like if we allow gay marriage we will ruin the American family, which is just preposterous). In fact on its face I’m inclined to side with the opposition. Obama’s plan sounds like a bad idea for one simple reason. His analogy to the post office is invalid since Medicare and Medicaid give us a real idea of what government run health insurance looks like (since they are, well, government run insurance plans).

Anyway, I don’t call myself anything (politically). I’m for what works. As for religion, I think believing in god-men who rose from the dead, men who acted as a conduit for a god, channeling that power into feats like dividing oceans, turning rivers into blood, and all the rest is absurd (and not something as an intelligent adult I’m willing to give serious consideration to). Did some sort of higher power have a hand in creating the universe? Who the heck knows … I’m just smart enough to know religion is silly. Beyond that I don’t pretend to have answers to age old questions that have perplexed man since we evolved into intelligent creatures.
But you didn’t really answer my question with this post, Yankee? And I’ve already expressed my opinions about gay marriage and they are not preposterous, I do not wish for people to redefine marriage as this could lead to other redefinitions that would lead to the restructuring of our society. I do think that there are people seeking to do just this, and they have no qualms about stating their aims. And I know what you think of me for stating this, but I can’t pretend otherwise. God bless.
 
But you didn’t really answer my question with this post, Yankee? And I’ve already expressed my opinions about gay marriage and they are not preposterous, I do not wish for people to redefine marriage as this could lead to other redefinitions that would lead to the restructuring of our society. I do think that there are people seeking to do just this, and they have no qualms about stating their aims. And I know what you think of me for stating this, but I can’t pretend otherwise. God bless.
you asked me what my view is … for goodness sake could I have been more descriptive??? Golly Josie, you’re a hard one to please. As for gay marriage … let’s just leave alone shall we. I’m not gay or religious so I don’t care that much about it (I just don’t care what gay people do with their free time). :cool:

One day nanobots will be swarming in our bodies (and they’ll probably correct the gay gene, but they might kill the religious gene too). :D:D:D
 
I can take your bullets :):)🙂

I was working out today & found myself reverting to old habits (in my younger days I entertained religion). I started feeling pain, and said in my mind the man upstairs must be reminding me I’m human. Within a second (or less) I came to my senses; and reminded myself pain is only weakness leaving the body. Then I proceeded to successfully complete my workout at an even higher intensity & did an extra weight routine (I hadn’t planned on doing) to boot.

Knowing I have no invisible friend always makes me stronger.
Yankee, why do you say things like this it makes me want to cry? When I feel pain (especially spiritual) the only thing that helps is God, I couldn’t live without him (you must think I’m weak).

p.s. I pray for you every day.
 
you asked me what my view is … for goodness sake could I have been more descriptive??? Golly Josie, you’re a hard one to please. As for gay marriage … let’s just leave alone shall we. I’m not gay or religious so I don’t care that much about it (I just don’t care what gay people do with their free time). :cool:

One day nanobots will be swarming in our bodies (and they’ll probably correct the gay gene, but they might kill the religious gene too). :D:D:D
I so wanted to make a joke about being hard to please . . . but I’ll refrain because as Eliza Doolittle says “I’m a good girl, I am”. 😃 😃
 
Folks like Yankee Doodle Dandy just do it to annoy believers. Why bother to engage? The only thing he/she doesn’t do; is listen. Or answer direct questions. (reminds me of Jehovah’s witnesses) Think of it this way - when there is grave injustice in the world (perpetrated by MAN not God) who is there looking grimy and dirty and trying to change things by helping the little folk at the bottom of the totem pole? Not the atheist - they can’t agree on anything long enough to organize a booze up in a brewery - usually some little priest or nun. Often unappreciated until the cause becomes necessary to the American economy or becomes fashionable - and then others rush in to help. And that grimy,tired little priest or nun - they just step back and thank God for allowing others to come to the aid of justice and their fellow man!
 
I have nothing against Atheists/Agnostics Marfran, I actually befriended a couple, however, I feel that my sentiments are valid as I have spent the better part of 5 months conversing (kindly) with them. And I’m not quite sure what you mean as a Catholic by asking me to “open my door and windows”?
If your doors and windows are open a butterfly might fly in. I mean if you are not closed off you can learn something from any source. A friendship with a non-Catholic could bring a surprise.

I don’t know your personal experiences here with non-Catholics–but I have met a lot of nice ones. I have also met a lot of nasty, judgemental Catholics–and that makes me sad. I have also met a lot of wonderful Catholics…
 
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