Why do Atheists/Agnostics come to CAF?

[Marfran]

I too believe being judgmental is wrong. However, I also don’t believe in any sort of karmic justice.

…for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. Galations 6:7

I have found this to be true.

In other words, **** happens for no particular reason. If there’s a bunch of little coincidences in your life that look like divine intervention, it’s either because other people are messing with you, you’re sort of crazy, or you’re predisposed to viewing everything through a mystical lens (or some other rational explanation).

Skepticism can also cloud your outlook. At one point in my life I too had great skepticism–then I hit a big bump in the road–I completely let go–of faith, of religion, of skepticism, of belief and of disbelief–and the butterfly landed on my shoulder, then another landed on my arm, then another on my head… I opened the doors and windows and allowed the truth–whatever that might be–to enter my life. I was profoundly surprised by a litany of “coincidences.” I will not tell my story here–it is way too long–but I will tell you that the “coincidences” were not little, they were beyond numerous, they continued for a long period, and continue to this day, every day…I am not crazy and yes, I have been told that I have a magical ability to connect “the dots,” however, the persons who wrote off my “coincidences” received some of their own in connection to mine, or were present with me for a few “coincidences” and they are skeptical no more. What I am saying is: if you can be open to all possibilities, if you have questions about your faith, or lack thereof–open your mind and heart and the truth will find you. This is my experience. And for those who have strong faith, but life sucks and you don’t understand why you are being so pounded–you too can let go of negativity long enough to allow a butterfly to flutter in. The answers that we seek are closer than we think–sometimes our mind set or rigid thinking keeps the truth out. Sometimes the truth is not what we want to hear…

I was watching a show about haunted houses. They literally had a video taken in the home showing the bed shaking around while this ghost buster (for lack of a better word) was in the bedroom. I was shouting turn that darn bed upside down and find the device causing that mattress to move. It’s probably some schemer trying to devalue the house so he can snatch it up at a bargain. To my surprise the group easily accepted a mystical explanation without opening closets, removing the mattress from the bed, etc. (simple actions that would have probably exposed the cause of this so called haunting). I wondered what a worthless bunch of ghost busters. So of course they called in a priest who performed a bizarre ritual on the home; and it was left there (no further exploration into the event).

I was left wondering how many such events are floating around out there? Perhaps I’m too skeptical … who knows

Sounds like a made for TV event.*** I am ***skeptical of anything and everything that I see on TV, in a magazine, etc. You must find truth in your own life–you must feel it in your own life… Yes you can be duped. The journey is a personal one.

 

[josie_L]

If your doors and windows are open a butterfly might fly in. I mean if you are not closed off you can learn something from any source. A friendship with a non-Catholic could bring a surprise.

I don’t know your personal experiences here with non-Catholics–but I have met a lot of nice ones. I have also met a lot of nasty, judgemental Catholics–and that makes me sad. I have also met a lot of wonderful Catholics…

Marfran I go where God leads me, so whatever door he asks me to open I’ll open and whatever door he asks me to shut I’ll shut. I also try to be open-minded but I try not to be stupid or naive either. Most of the Catholics I have met are very nice (I’ve run into a few that are tough but not nasty), most of the non-Catholics are nice too, although we do often get the Bible believing OSAS crowd and well, they don’t usually stay long, i.e., they get banned.

p.s. Not judging but you don’t sound very Catholic?

 

[josie_L]

I wouldn’t have it any other way

I have one word for you . . . “Pest”.

 

[Marfran]

Marfran I go where God leads me, so whatever door he asks me to open I’ll open and whatever door he asks me to shut I’ll shut. I also try to be open-minded but I try not to be stupid or naive either. Most of the Catholics I have met are very nice (I’ve run into a few that are tough but not nasty), most of the non-Catholics are nice too, although we do often get the Bible believing OSAS crowd and well, they don’t usually stay long, i.e., they get banned.

p.s. Not judging but you don’t sound very Catholic?

Wow, sounds like judging to me!!! I am Catholic for more decades than I care to reveal and my children all go/or have gone to parochial schools. I am college educated and one of my degrees is from a Catholic institution of higher learning. I don’t believe that being Catholic means that we should look down on non-Catholics but that we should offer our hand to them, and lead by example and not bullying. There is a lot of bullying here.

The main reason that I came to CAF was because I noticed in my parish that a lot of Catholics did not live their faith, or were Catholics in name only, and this bothered me. Coming here I have found many good Catholics, many good non-Catholics, and many Catholics that seem to be on a mission to spread venom and pass judgment. I think we should leave the judgment part to God, and help all of our brothers and sisters–Catholic and non-Catholic alike. We should be able to communicate with peoples of all faiths.

P.S. What is your criteria for ***sounding ***Catholic?

 

[josie_L]

Wow, sounds like judging to me!!! I am Catholic for more decades than I care to reveal and my children all go/or have gone to parochial schools. I am college educated and one of my degrees is from a Catholic institution of higher learning. I don’t believe that being Catholic means that we should look down on non-Catholics but that we should offer our hand to them, and lead by example and not bullying. There is a lot of bullying here.

**The main reason that I came to CAF was because I noticed in my parish that a lot of Catholics did not live their faith, or were Catholics in name only, and this bothered me. **Coming here I have found many good Catholics, many good non-Catholics, and many Catholics that seem to be on a mission to spread venom and pass judgment. I think we should leave the judgment part to God, and help all of our brothers and sisters–Catholic and non-Catholic alike. We should be able to communicate with peoples of all faiths.

P.S. What is your criteria for ***sounding ***Catholic?

Does it sound like I’m judging, maybe, but you sound and I’m being quite honest, a little new age in your attitude, furthermore as the emboldened parts suggest you’re not too impartial to judging yourself.

 

[yankee_doodle]

…for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. Galations 6:7

I have found this to be true.

but that’s not karmic justice (i.e. what comes around goes around) that’s just common sense. If someone is a slacker they shouldn’t expect to accomplish much, if someone is abusive they should expect discontent in their relationships (and perhaps jail time), if someone is a thief they should expect to get caught (unless they’re like James Bond or something) … you get the point.

Skepticism can also cloud your outlook. At one point in my life I too had great skepticism–then I hit a big bump in the road–I completely let go–of faith, of religion, of skepticism, of belief and of disbelief–and the butterfly landed on my shoulder, then another landed on my arm, then another on my head… I opened the doors and windows and allowed the truth–whatever that might be–to enter my life. I was profoundly surprised by a litany of “coincidences.” I will not tell my story here–it is way too long–but I will tell you that the “coincidences” were not little, they were beyond numerous, they continued for a long period, and continue to this day, every day…I am not crazy and yes, I have been told that I have a magical ability to connect “the dots,” however, the persons who wrote off my “coincidences” received some of their own in connection to mine, or were present with me for a few “coincidences” and they are skeptical no more. What I am saying is: if you can be open to all possibilities, if you have questions about your faith, or lack thereof–open your mind and heart and the truth will find you. This is my experience. And for those who have strong faith, but life sucks and you don’t understand why you are being so pounded–you too can let go of negativity long enough to allow a butterfly to flutter in. The answers that we seek are closer than we think–sometimes our mind set or rigid thinking keeps the truth out. Sometimes the truth is not what we want to hear…

skepticism is not why I don’t believe in religion. Logic and common sense is more than enough to dissuade me from believing in fairy tales.

 

[Marfran]

OK, my beliefs are shaped by efficiency. What works best in terms of promoting the highest possible per capita income, inspiring scientific advancement, creating the best possible environment in terms of public welfare and safety, and personal happiness… Anyway, I don’t call myself anything (politically). I’m for what works. As for religion, I think believing in god-men who rose from the dead, men who acted as a conduit for a god, channeling that power into feats like dividing oceans, turning rivers into blood, and all the rest is absurd (and not something as an intelligent adult I’m willing to give serious consideration to). Did some sort of higher power have a hand in creating the universe? Who the heck knows … I’m just smart enough to know religion is silly. Beyond that I don’t pretend to have answers to age old questions that have perplexed man since we evolved into intelligent creatures.

And yes, there are some things associated with religion that do seem silly or are silly. If you study the basic tenets of the Bible, or other religious foundation, you will discover a lot of good value, ethics, etc. Science is not separate from God, nor is economics, etc. He made all of these, and yes we can use these too to navigate this world that we live in. I think it all works together. And an atheist or agnostic ***can ***have respect for his fellow man and live ethically without adhereing to religious belief. I think that emotional and personal pain is an indicator that we need to look at our belief systems–what is it that we don’t get? Why do all these bad things happen to me? Is it all really just random? Are we here evolving, our souls growing spiritually, or are we just spinning our wheels until the final curtain call? Are you, yankee, happy with your existance, your role on Earth? If you are content in your beliefs that life is just random soup–then why do you come to a religious forum to express your beliefs? Why waste “random” time?

Aside to Josie: Should I beat him over the head with a Bible? Would that be a better way to deal with this one? I suppose you’ve tried that already. He’s still here though, and still conscious. Is it possible that God sent him here to help us improve our own abilities to communicate with non-Catholics, agnostics, and atheists?

 

[yankee_doodle]

Folks like Yankee Doodle Dandy just do it to annoy believers. Why bother to engage? The only thing he/she doesn’t do; is listen. Or answer direct questions. (reminds me of Jehovah’s witnesses)

ahh yes, you guys are the ones who believe in god-men rising from the grave, flying angels (that mysteriously elude our telescopes), and all the rest … but I’m more like a Jehovah’s Witness than you are? Hmmm … OK

Think of it this way - when there is grave injustice in the world (perpetrated by MAN not God) who is there looking grimy and dirty and trying to change things by helping the little folk at the bottom of the totem pole? Not the atheist - they can’t agree on anything long enough to organize a booze up in a brewery - usually some little priest or nun.

really … funny thing is I don’t hear about too many atheist pedophiles, but Catholic priests (seems to be another story). Don’t hear about too many atheists trying to organize a “booze up in a brewery” (but alcoholic priests, seems to be yet another story).

Often unappreciated until the cause becomes necessary to the American economy or becomes fashionable - and then others rush in to help. And that grimy,tired little priest or nun - they just step back and thank God for allowing others to come to the aid of justice and their fellow man!

huh?

 

[Marfran]

skepticism is not why I don’t believe in religion. Logic and common sense is more than enough to dissuade me from believing in fairy tales.

Religion and logic and common sense can all work together. Using one does not exclude the other. God also created logic and common sense for us to use.

 

[yankee_doodle]

And yes, there are some things associated with religion that do seem silly or are silly. If you study the basic tenets of the Bible, or other religious foundation, you will discover a lot of good value, ethics, etc. Science is not separate from God, nor is economics, etc. He made all of these, and yes we can use these too to navigate this world that we live in. I think it all works together. And an atheist or agnostic ***can ***have respect for his fellow man and live ethically without adhereing to religious belief. I think that emotional and personal pain is an indicator that we need to look at our belief systems–what is it that we don’t get? Why do all these bad things happen to me? Is it all really just random? Are we here evolving, our souls growing spiritually, or are we just spinning our wheels until the final curtain call? Are you, yankee, happy with your existance, your role on Earth? If you are content in your beliefs that life is just random soup–then why do you come to a religious forum to express your beliefs? Why waste “random” time?

whether I was happy with it or not doesn’t make religion anymore true (although, yeah I’m as happy as I was when I did believe in a god, when I was a little kid).

The bottom line is Christianity is not true. No-one ever rose from the dead. No god turned the Nile into blood or split the red sea. It’s likely the Jews were never enslaved by the Egyptians (since there’s not a shred of evidence from ancient Egyptian historical records to indicate anything like what we see described in the bible ever happened). Given the evidence we have of evolution there couldn’t have been an Adam or Eve as described by the bible, and the tower of Babel story cannot be true (given what we know about human migration patterns and linguistic history).

In other words religion is a myth.

Does it make people happier to believe in things that aren’t true? I’m not really sure (for instance would kids be happier if they were never exposed to Santa Claus? I suppose there’s good arguments both ways … but in either case we know a man named Santa Claus doesn’t live in the North Pole, ride around in a sleigh driven by reindeer’s, and slide down every chimney on earth in a single 24 hour period).

 

[Marfran]

Does it sound like I’m judging, maybe, but you sound and I’m being quite honest, a little new age in your attitude, furthermore as the emboldened parts suggest you’re not too impartial to judging yourself.

I noticed some troubling aspects and sought to understand. How is that judgmental? I wanted to understand how people hear the same words in Church but live them differently.

I don’t like new age music. I think it is too slow and boring. I like something with a livelier beat.

 

[yankee_doodle]

Religion and logic and common sense can all work together. Using one does not exclude the other. God also created logic and common sense for us to use.

suffice it to say I disagree.

 

[josie_L]

ahh yes, you guys are the ones who believe in god-men rising from the grave, flying angels (that mysteriously elude our telescopes), and all the rest … but I’m more like a Jehovah’s Witness than you are? Hmmm … OK

really … funny thing is I don’t hear about too many atheist pedophiles, but Catholic priests (seems to be another story). Don’t hear about too many atheists trying to organize a “booze up in a brewery” (but alcoholic priests, seems to be yet another story).

huh?

Why do you have to answer like this? What benefit do you get from it? And bringing up a few bad priests doesn’t change the fact that the majority of priests are good and caring shepherds.

 

[Marfran]

whether I was happy with it or not doesn’t make religion anymore true (although, yeah I’m as happy as I was when I did believe in a god, when I was a little kid).

The bottom line is Christianity is not true. No-one ever rose from the dead. No god turned the Nile into blood or split the red sea. It’s likely the Jews were never enslaved by the Egyptians (since there’s not a shred of evidence from ancient Egyptian historical records to indicate anything like what we see described in the bible ever happened). Given the evidence we have of evolution there couldn’t have been an Adam or Eve as described by the bible, and the tower of Babel story cannot be true (given what we know about human migration patterns and linguistic history).

In other words religion is a myth.

Does it make people happier to believe in things that aren’t true? I’m not really sure (for instance would kids be happier if they were never exposed to Santa Claus? I suppose there’s good arguments both ways … but in either case we know a man named Santa Claus doesn’t live in the North Pole, ride around in a sleigh driven by reindeer’s, and slide down every chimney on earth in a single 24 hour period).

I will have to agree with you that Santa Claus does not exist, nor has he ever. I think that the myth of Santa Claus is unneccessary. We can have celebrations and show love to one another, i.e. give each other gifts or tokens of our love and appreciation without creating fairy tale figures. And we can do this any day and every day… (I am surprised that Christians allowed Santa to weasel his way in on the Christmas celebration–he deserves the boot!)

If you study the Bible in depth, however, you will notice that it has more substance and structure than the myth of Santa Claus, and I am sure that some things can not be confirmed, that others are intended as parable…

Do you really want to argue with those who have faith and who believe? If you think it is all silly why do you waste your time? That is not a criticism of you. People spend their time doing things that have meaning to them. What meaning is there for you in speaking ***against ***religion?

 

[yankee_doodle]

Do you really want to argue with those who have faith and who believe? If you think it is all silly why do you waste your time? That is not a criticism of you. People spend their time doing things that have meaning to them. What meaning is there for you in speaking ***against ***religion?

maybe I’m an evangelical atheist

or maybe just bored … killing time???

 

[Marfran]

Why do you have to answer like this? What benefit do you get from it? And bringing up a few bad priests doesn’t change the fact that the majority of priests are good and caring shepherds.

The “bad” priests are a stain on us.

yankee: there are plenty of atheist pedophiles. They are all over the internet. Pedophiles come in all shapes, sizes, colors, and religious affiliations…

 

[josie_L]

Aside to Josie: Should I beat him over the head with a Bible?

Would that be a better way to deal with this one?

Can’t say as I haven’t tried, but I’m keeping my options opened.

I suppose you’ve tried that already.

I’m not adverse to trying.

He’s still here though, and still conscious.

Yes, which gives me hope.

Is it possible that God sent him here to help us improve our own abilities to communicate with non-Catholics, agnostics, and atheists?

Well, God loves him so he sent him to people who would remind him of His love.

 

[josie_L]

The “bad” priests are a stain on us.

yankee: there are plenty of atheist pedophiles. They are all over the internet. Pedophiles come in all shapes, sizes, colors, and religious affiliations…

Marfran, I realize that but I’m getting sick and tired of people bringing up pedophiles priests as if this somehow represents the priesthood.

 

[yankee_doodle]

Why do you have to answer like this? What benefit do you get from it? And bringing up a few bad priests doesn’t change the fact that the majority of priests are good and caring shepherds.

The John Jay report (by Catholic Bishops) shows 4% of all Catholic priests between 1950-2002 were pedophiles. Other reports put the number much higher (as high as 8% with 100,000 victims).

This is unconscionable … at least to me. Imagine if even 4% of all American adults were pedophiles? Then imagine if the number were 8%. Now multiply that by 4 (the average number of victims a pedophile rapes); and about 1/3 of all American kids would have been a victim of a pedophile at some point in their childhood. Thankfully the number is much, much smaller in our general population.

 

[Marfran]

Josie: You wanted to know why agnostics and atheists come to CAF threads. The answer is two-fold. They come for their own benefit (whatever that may be–it is personal to them). They also come for our (benefit). They do not come to infuriate you (don’t think of it that way). Think of it for GROWTH, for understanding. For their growth, for yours, for mine. That is why we are ALL here. Growth is often painful and it isn’t always easy. If you learn to speak and communicate with those who oppose you, you will improve your communication skills. And someday an atheist or agnostic will ring your front doorbell and ask for your help, and you will understand him and will be better able to communicate with him, because of all your experience here at CAF.

BTW: Butterflies are not New Age. God created them–He gets the credit…