Why do Atheists/Agnostics come to CAF?

[josie_L]

But then if he educates himself he can’t be such a Church hater, so I am betting he won’t even look. It is easier to stay ignorant. If you don’t then you have decisions to make,

:sad_yes:

 

[Marfran]

The Church is a hospital for sinners. No one in the Church is without sin.

That’s good! I like the way you put that!

 

[Marfran]

Originally Posted by yankee_doodle
if the church is a hospital for sinners, then they need to hire better doctors (or at least screen them better)?

And that’s exactly what they are doing.

Ditto.

 

[Marfran]

Originally Posted by yankee_doodle
In other words religion is a myth.

Religion is - binding oneself to God.

Ditto.

 

[Swan]

No one is sweeping it under the rug for goodness sake’s it’s been regurgitated ad nauseum since it happened.

p.s. You know what, I think I’ll regurgitate ad naseum the crimes of America, how about slavery, how about Nagasaki and Hiroshima, how about their attempt at colonialism in South America and the Philippines, how about their aim at “manifest destiny” that killed and wiped out in some instances whole tribes of Amerindians (isn’t this genocide), how about the death penalty, how about … etc.

Look, I understand that you are sick of it - and being a part of the Church makes you understandably more sensitive. However, the examples you pointed out above are no where near as recent, nor were they perpetrated on the whole by a religious institution (I say "on the whole because churches had an often negative role in colonialism and manifest destiny). This is recent memory we’re talking about here - people who trusted their chruch to look out for them and were betrayed horribly. Their pain is still very much a part of their lives and the lives of their loved ones, the fear is there amonst those who were abused and those who are afraid of future problems. You can’t just say “I’m sorry, now sit down and shut up because we don’t need the bad publicity” to these folks. Mea Culpa would be a better thing to say. And the fact the the RC holds itself up to be so much holier than others, well, then, this is just gonna bite all that harder because when you hold yourself up to be better and then you fail so miserably with your own people, to the point of covering up crimes and then, when the lid comes off actually transferring some of the most guilty to cushy jobs - what do you expect? You can’t get upset when folks call you on failing to live up to the higher standards you claim to represent. In the end, you come off sounding defensive and less than sympathetic to the victims. It makes one think that you care more about the stucture of the Church than the millions of worshippers who actually make it up.

 

[Swan]

I like what you’re pushing (peaceful coexistence); but you must also understand the inherent conflict between Christians and atheists/agnostics. Most atheists object to prohibitions on things like gay marriage or embryonic stem cell research. We think most religion (although I’m far from an expert on Buddhism) serves as an obstruction to science and individual freedoms. Therefore, we naturally challenge it in the interest of what we see as the greater good. Obviously Christianity is not tolerant toward challenge (and views it as a threat).

Inversely, Christianity believes it serves the greater good, because Christians generally (though not exclusively) believe trends such as increased tolerance toward homosexuals will lead to societal decline (not to mention invoking the wrath of their all powerful god). Herein lies the tension (that will probably never find complete resolution). However, the trend in the west is toward secularization (and religion across the board is declining in industrialized countries). Therefore, this tension may diminish as religion diminishes (although there’s still the impending issue of increased religiosity in the third world).

I wanted to get back to you on this because I really agree with you. On of the main problems with religion is the inherent belief that folks are acting on the “highest” authority - so how do you reason with that attitude? As you know, it has been used as an excuse to torture, kill, enslave, exploit, etc., for millenia - by various religious groups both amongst themselves (i.e., various Christian groups) and against those who believed differently (one religion against another).

If you ask most Chrisitians why they can’t just live and let live,for example, the answer is usally something along the lines of “we are called to evangelize and make the world the way God wants it”. So even though no one is forcing them to marry someone of the same sex, they can’t just give gays that freedom. And then there is the idea that secularism is destroying society. IMO, live and let live is the way to go. I’ve been married several times, lived in sin, use birth control, had an abortion, and one same sex relationship - and none of that infringed on anyone else’s rights. Yet these folks would love to infringe on my rights and it really ticks me off, especially given that these same people are usually sceaming about govenment interference in private lives (though I’ve noticed their concerns generally tend to revolve around money/taxes and guns).

I’m what many of these folks can’t stand - a liberal, egalitarian, pro-labor, pro-social justice, environmentalist. And to be honest (and this is my main point - sorry for the above rant ) I’ve come to the conclusion that most of my efforts to find any common ground with many believers is simply an excercise in futility. We argue and discuss - though there are some that are so dogmatic that there isn’t even an chance for an opening dialog. I’m working on accepting that and just moving on, to the point that I’ve limited contact and discussion topics with some of my loved ones. If we can see each other’s points and agree to disagree, fine. But no more shouting matches for me. I do find some common ground with more liberal believers (of various faiths - including Jewish and Muslim). The other folks in the social justice groups I work with are either agnostic,atheist, liberal Christian or liberal Jew, Buddhist, or pagan). So I guess it just is what it is.

 

[josie_L]

Look, I understand that you are sick of it - and being a part of the Church makes you understandably more sensitive. However, the examples you pointed out above are no where near as recent, nor were they perpetrated on the whole by a religious institution (I say "on the whole because churches had an often negative role in colonialism and manifest destiny). This is recent memory we’re talking about here - people who trusted their chruch to look out for them and were betrayed horribly. Their pain is still very much a part of their lives and the lives of their loved ones, the fear is there amonst those who were abused and those who are afraid of future problems. You can’t just say “I’m sorry, now sit down and shut up because we don’t need the bad publicity” to these folks. Mea Culpa would be a better thing to say. And the fact the the RC holds itself up to be so much holier than others, well, then, this is just gonna bite all that harder because when you hold yourself up to be better and then you fail so miserably with your own people, to the point of covering up crimes and then, when the lid comes off actually transferring some of the most guilty to cushy jobs - what do you expect? You can’t get upset when folks call you on failing to live up to the higher standards you claim to represent. In the end, you come off sounding defensive and less than sympathetic to the victims. It makes one think that you care more about the stucture of the Church than the millions of worshippers who actually make it up.

Dear God, grant me the grace to be patient. Amen.

 

[Marfran]

Look, I understand that you are sick of it - and being a part of the Church makes you understandably more sensitive. However, the examples you pointed out above are no where near as recent, nor were they perpetrated on the whole by a religious institution (I say "on the whole because churches had an often negative role in colonialism and manifest destiny). This is recent memory we’re talking about here - people who trusted their chruch to look out for them and were betrayed horribly. Their pain is still very much a part of their lives and the lives of their loved ones, the fear is there amonst those who were abused and those who are afraid of future problems. You can’t just say “I’m sorry, now sit down and shut up because we don’t need the bad publicity” to these folks. Mea Culpa would be a better thing to say. And the fact the the RC holds itself up to be so much holier than others, well, then, this is just gonna bite all that harder because when you hold yourself up to be better and then you fail so miserably with your own people, to the point of covering up crimes and then, when the lid comes off actually transferring some of the most guilty to cushy jobs - what do you expect? You can’t get upset when folks call you on failing to live up to the higher standards you claim to represent. In the end, you come off sounding defensive and less than sympathetic to the victims. It makes one think that you care more about the stucture of the Church than the millions of worshippers who actually make it up.

There **is no **defense of these priests, there **is no **defense of those within the Church who tried to swept it under the rug and simply re-locate priests. These priests have real living victims whose lives are forever marred, and their actions have brought STAIN to the Church. We can not hide from this STAIN, nor minimize it. THERE IS NO excuse. MY MOTHER LEFT the Church because one of these incidents happened in her parish. It is hard to stand by such a church–however, the Church accepts it’s guilt and has implemented changes so that this will not happen again. These awful men have damaged individuals and have damaged the Church. And those who believe in the Church must work to repair the damage done. And though it is not my sin, or your sin, josie, it is a sin that shadows our Church.

 

[Marfran]

I have met some nice polite (and some not so nice and/or polite) Atheists/Agnostics here at CAF, yet I’m still somewhat befuddled by your presence, for example, I don’t know why you seek to argue with us if you don’t have proof that God doesn’t exist and furthermore that Christianity is false? Moreover, I don’t appreciate the antagonism I sense from some posters, I don’t appreciate the lack of knowledge others have of our faith and yet feel duty bound to criticize it, I don’t appreciate that everytime we have something supernatural or unique that happens it’s chalked down to every conceivable (material) explaination except God (despite the evidence), I don’t appreciate moreover the fact that although some wish for signs you refuse to believe in the ones that have already happened . . . etc.

I wish Atheists/Agnostics were open-minded to the possibility that God could exist, why can’t you be more open-minded? And even if you choose not to believe that any religion is true, why won’t you at least be a deist (there are many factors in my opinion that point to an intelligent designer)?

God bless.

I think that there is nothing wrong with having atheists, agnostics, or those of other faiths here at CAF, however, I think that we all get heated at times, and must work to be more civil in presenting our thoughts and engaging in debate and discussion.

 

[yankee_doodle]

I wanted to get back to you on this because I really agree with you. On of the main problems with religion is the inherent belief that folks are acting on the “highest” authority - so how do you reason with that attitude? As you know, it has been used as an excuse to torture, kill, enslave, exploit, etc., for millenia - by various religious groups both amongst themselves (i.e., various Christian groups) and against those who believed differently (one religion against another).

If you ask most Chrisitians why they can’t just live and let live,for example, the answer is usally something along the lines of “we are called to evangelize and make the world the way God wants it”. So even though no one is forcing them to marry someone of the same sex, they can’t just give gays that freedom. And then there is the idea that secularism is destroying society. IMO, live and let live is the way to go. I’ve been married several times, lived in sin, use birth control, had an abortion, and one same sex relationship - and none of that infringed on anyone else’s rights. Yet these folks would love to infringe on my rights and it really ticks me off, especially given that these same people are usually sceaming about govenment interference in private lives (though I’ve noticed their concerns generally tend to revolve around money/taxes and guns).

I’m what many of these folks can’t stand - a liberal, egalitarian, pro-labor, pro-social justice, environmentalist. And to be honest (and this is my main point - sorry for the above rant ) I’ve come to the conclusion that most of my efforts to find any common ground with many believers is simply an excercise in futility. We argue and discuss - though there are some that are so dogmatic that there isn’t even an chance for an opening dialog. I’m working on accepting that and just moving on, to the point that I’ve limited contact and discussion topics with some of my loved ones. If we can see each other’s points and agree to disagree, fine. But no more shouting matches for me. I do find some common ground with more liberal believers (of various faiths - including Jewish and Muslim). The other folks in the social justice groups I work with are either agnostic,atheist, liberal Christian or liberal Jew, Buddhist, or pagan). So I guess it just is what it is.

Swan:

Yeah, I do see your point. I’m probably not as politically motivated as you are. I tend to be more of a pragmatist politically; and not necessarily dogmatic one way or the other.

I for one don’t see how your divorces, prior same sex relationship, or living in sin (I assume you mean living with a partner out of wedlock) affects my life one drop. Heck, if you didn’t tell me I would have never known, and never cared.

I guess if I had to pick a political leaning it would be libertarian (although I suppose a moderate libertarian). I see little difference between republicans and democrats. They both like government control over our lives, they just want to control us in different ways. Sometimes I don’t see much difference between theists and socialists, because they both think they know what’s best for other people. Indeed it’s the same mindset, one is just controlled by their religiosity whereas the other is not. It’s weird but apparently there’s something inherent in the nature of many people that compels their desire to control their surroundings. As technology increases and we become more aware of the world around us, our “surroundings” become wider and wider. Perhaps this is an extension of our survival instinct.

However, it goes far beyond mere survival. Many view anything in discord from their way of life as a threat, or a substandard condition that needs to be mitigated one way or the other. This is probably something that’s built into our subconscious somehow. I suspect some of our religious friends will point out that many (if not most) socialists tend to be irreligious. While I agree they’re usually not theists, irreligious? I say they replace one system that seeks to control free thought with another; and I personally reject both.

 

[buffalo]

There **is no **defense of these priests, there **is no **defense of those within the Church who tried to swept it under the rug and simply re-locate priests. These priests have real living victims whose lives are forever marred, and their actions have brought STAIN to the Church. We can not hide from this STAIN, nor minimize it. THERE IS NO excuse. MY MOTHER LEFT the Church because one of these incidents happened in her parish. It is hard to stand by such a church–however, the Church accepts it’s guilt and has implemented changes so that this will not happen again. These awful men have damaged individuals and have damaged the Church. And those who believe in the Church must work to repair the damage done. And though it is not my sin, or your sin, josie, it is a sin that shadows our Church.

Even man’s darkest failures as bad as they are cannot destroy the Church. The Church is Jesus Christ and His message is for all ages. It is man that has to embrace the message and try to live it. He cannot do it alone, that much is clear throughout history. He needs the graces that God freely gives to accomplish this.

 

[buffalo]

I think that there is nothing wrong with having atheists, agnostics, or those of other faiths here at CAF, however, I think that we all get heated at times, and must work to be more civil in presenting our thoughts and engaging in debate and discussion.

I agree. I have learned much more about my faith having to answer their challenges. It has actually strengthened my faith. What I do not like is the hate and ignorance some of them spew here. Sometimes I feel the heat of the devil.

 

[yankee_doodle]

Even man’s darkest failures as bad as they are cannot destroy the Church. The Church is Jesus Christ and His message is for all ages. It is man that has to embrace the message and try to live it. He cannot do it alone, that much is clear throughout history. He needs the graces that God freely gives to accomplish this.

the Egyptian religion lasted for thousands of years (with some innovations along the way, like we’ve seen with Christianity); but eventually it gave way to progress (and many other factors). Eventually, if mankind continues its progress, your church and religion will disappear. The only way it can survive long-term is if we’re driven backwards; and to spite the best efforts of those who, throughout time, have tried to impede progress, we always eventually move forward.

 

[josie_L]

There **is no **defense of these priests, there **is no **defense of those within the Church who tried to swept it under the rug and simply re-locate priests. These priests have real living victims whose lives are forever marred, and their actions have brought STAIN to the Church. We can not hide from this STAIN, nor minimize it. THERE IS NO excuse. MY MOTHER LEFT the Church because one of these incidents happened in her parish. It is hard to stand by such a church–however, the Church accepts it’s guilt and has implemented changes so that this will not happen again. These awful men have damaged individuals and have damaged the Church. And those who believe in the Church must work to repair the damage done. And though it is not my sin, or your sin, josie, it is a sin that shadows our Church.

Marfran, within the Church many were misled by psychologists that believed the priests had been cured of their disorder, but they weren’t. The Church did much wrong (and as a result hurt many people) in how it handled the incidents but I would not chalk it down necessarily to evil or malice (refering to the bishops).

 

[Marfran]

Even man’s darkest failures as bad as they are cannot destroy the Church. The Church is Jesus Christ and His message is for all ages. It is man that has to embrace the message and try to live it. He cannot do it alone, that much is clear throughout history. He needs the graces that God freely gives to accomplish this.

Ditto.

 

[Marfran]

I agree. I have learned much more about my faith having to answer their challenges. It has actually strengthened my faith. What I do not like is the hate and ignorance some of them spew here. Sometimes I feel the heat of the devil.

And it is a challenge that will serve to strengthen you (us).

 

[Marfran]

Marfran, some of those within the Church were misled by psychologists that believed the priests had been cured of their disorder, but they weren’t. The Church did much wrong (and as a result hurt many people) in how it handled the incidents but I would not chalk it down necessarily to evil or malice (refering to the bishops).

There was a documentary news show on this topic awhile ago. I don’t remember all of the details. The good news is that this has all been exposed, and there is such a bright light focused on this issue that it will be real hard to let it occur again. And now we have the Virtus training. And what happened within our Church is a microcosm of all society. These types of “priests” infiltrate other sectors of society as well. We all need to be aware in the TOTAL of society.

 

[yankee_doodle]

Sometimes I feel the heat of the devil.

sure, an invisible evil spirit made me do it?

 

[josie_L]

There was a documentary news show on this topic awhile ago. I don’t remember all of the details. The good news is that this has all been exposed, and there is such a bright light focused on this issue that it will be real hard to let it occur again. And now we have the Virtus training. And what happened within our Church is a microcosm of all society. These types of “priests” infiltrate other sectors of society as well. We all need to be aware in the TOTAL of society.

But this was my point all along in that these abuses are endemic of society at large, it is not as if we the Catholic Church are unique in this regard. God bless.

 

[josie_L]

sure, an invisible evil spirit made me do it?

Good and evil works in all of us.