Why do Atheists/Agnostics come to CAF?

[josie_L]

The pre-Judaic Sumerian flood story asserted the gods intended to destroy life on earth through a flood, and a goddess warned the hero character; instructing him to built a giant ship and house living creatures in it (to prevent their extinction). Humans were created out of clay. Of course humans first inhabited a paradise, where there was no sickness, death, or strife; and women didn’t have labor pains.

faculty.gvsu.edu/websterm/SumerianMyth.htm

This site gives a decent cursory snapshot of Sumerian mythology. It is real evidence showing a significant likelihood that Judaism was merely an offshoot of this mythology, sort of like Mormonism is to Christianity.

Imagine, assuming there was an Abraham (or a central figure who started this folklore), he may have been a story teller much like Joseph Smith was. A small tribe of people who either lived in or were exposed to Sumerian civilization, who either were or became nomadic, and developed a tribe identity (and this folklore, which probably began as a hybrid of Sumerian mythology, developed over centuries to eventually become the Judaism we know today).

This is certainly far more plausible than wild far fetched stories like fish swallowing men (and the guy surviving), men acting as a conduit for a god – turning rivers into blood and dividing seas, angels visiting virgin women to tell them they were impregnated by a spirit of a deity, god-men rising from the dead, and all the rest of it.

How the flood is explained is not important, but that they speak of a flood speaks volumes? And again, I read up on some of the sumerian beliefs and I can’t for the life of me understand how you can think that Judaism is an offshoot of this religion/mythology? And you shouldn’t take everything in the Bible literally (the story of Jonah is to be taken figuratively)?

 

[yankee_doodle]

How the flood is explained is not important, but that they speak of a flood speaks volumes? And again, I read up on some of the sumerian beliefs and I can’t for the life of me understand how you can think that Judaism is an offshoot of this religion/mythology? And you shouldn’t take everything in the Bible literally (the story of Jonah is to be taken figuratively)?

of course you can’t see the obvious similarities … you’re indoctrinated. Figurative, don’t you mean once science proves it wrong, or it becomes simply too absurd to believe, it becomes “figurative”

 

[josie_L]

of course you can’t see the obvious similarities … you’re indoctrinated. Figurative, don’t you mean once science proves it wrong, or it becomes simply too absurd to believe, it becomes “figurative”

There is much in the OT that has yet to be infallibly defined, but some things have been concluded as being figurative, such as the book of Job and the story of Jonah, furthermore, do you honestly think we care if people believe it’s absurd (if I truly did do you think I would believe)? Faith is a gift from God which you don’t have, so I don’t expect you to understand scripture or my beliefs.

 

[yankee_doodle]

There is much in the OT that has yet to be infallibly defined, but some things have been concluded as being figurative, such as the book of Job and the story of Jonah, furthermore, do you honestly think we care if people believe it’s absurd (if I truly did do you think I would believe)? Faith is a gift from God which you don’t have, so I don’t expect you to understand scripture or my beliefs.

man, 2,000 years and they still can’t figure a 1,000 page book? That’s two years per page.

Faith is what people convince themselves of … nothing more or less.

 

[josie_L]

man, 2,000 years and they still can’t figure a 1,000 page book? That’s two years per page.

Faith is what people convince themselves of … nothing more or less.

Says the man with no faith.

 

[reen12]

I really only have a gut feeling God exists simply because rationally I cannot accept the material universe simply came about by chance (I think that is where we agnostics differ from the atheists.)

Neither can I. The complexity of the human eye, for instance, cannot
possibly be a phenomenon that emerged over time.
[BTW, wouldn’t have a qualm about adopting the atheist stance, if I thought
that it reflected reality. If this life was it - I’d have no difficulty accepting that.]

quote: Agripa

I also think as an agnostic that whatever God is, its more likely an ultimate or primal force which is somewhat reflected in Christian and Jewish teachings, though I would tend to a more singular, monotheistic view of God as perhaps a modern Jew might. (I definately don’t think God is split into three beings in One God. To me, that’s a theological cheat that lets you satisfy the human urge towards polytheism wrapped in a shallow pretence of monotheism.)

Agree. Beyond Judaism’s declaration of monotheism, to me Judaic thought itself
is both balanced and ‘this world’ oriented.

And I think that you’re exactly right. Polytheism, clearly.

Thanks for your thoughts, Agripa.

reen12

 

[humble_maid]

But who can know what God’s will is? Is it not man in the end who defines God’s will to his own ends and in an effort to control others? How can we accept that God’s will only comes from a single collection of books written over time, most lately about 1700 years, by superstitious people who thrived in a era of myths and legends?

Hello Agrippa,

It is not easy trying to figure out all the mysteries of life. Did it ever occur to you that some of the most profound believers at one time or another were atheists or pagan. Take for example St. Augustine who was a pagan perhaps he didn’t even care of any beliefs. He was lost(had no direction in life) loose in his conduct etc…However life took a turn for him. His mother was a converted christian and prayed that he would change his ways. Finally the day came. What joy she must of felt. What I am trying to show you is that life’s answers are there for you to figure out of your own free will. If you choose to seek truth, then do the necessary research; this takes time, patience, effort and committment. Do not be downtrodden by what I say; for some such as myself it took all this, and many years to be sure of what I believe, for others it can be almost instantaneous. God’s spirit works differently in all of us but the message is the same.
If you yearn to know then follow your spiritual insight(instincts) let your heart lead you with a good measure of wisdom. Pray for The Spirit to teach you; you must do this everyday until the day you will get your answer. In the beginning you will have more questions than answers; don’t let it burden you; simply continue to seek and find.
All of this is the beginnings of truth finding; it is not superstitious to believe. I have studied with Mormons, JW, catholics, evangelists, protestants and sometimes I doubted religion altogether. But never did I doubt God. You must understand though, if God is to minister to His people He has provided a church (earthly institution) for His purpose and for me that has become the Catholic faith. The tragedy is that man in his evil ways saw opportunities to empower himself by using religion thus giving religion and God a negative perspective. Don’t fall into that trap. It is designed to undermine the sincere TRUTH SEEKERS. God will give you what you need to know to decipher heresies, superstitions, and lies. When this happens you will be made strong in spirit and whatever comes what may He will be your guardian.:angel1:

 

[Agripa]

Hello Agrippa,

You must understand though, if God is to minister to His people He has provided a church (earthly institution) for His purpose and for me that has become the Catholic faith. The tragedy is that man in his evil ways saw opportunities to empower himself by using religion thus giving religion and God a negative perspective. Don’t fall into that trap. It is designed to undermine the sincere TRUTH SEEKERS. :

This is where agnostics and believers diverge - the agnostic sees it as WE who need a God to administer to us, and that is precisely why WE created a church - it is why WE have made God in the image that WE want: We want God as a kindly but stern old father figure, it is WE who want God as having a suffering Son who removes the primordial need to sacrifice real sons and daughters to an angry God, it is WE who want a subservient female, Mary, to fully submit to a father figure God and bear His Son, no questions asked.

Every thing we think God is really harkens back to our base, infantile, human emotions: Father, Mother, Son, Pain, Sacrifice, Judgement, Justice: All the base emotions and impulses in day to day life are reflected in how we WANT to see God.

Furthermore, the Believer cannot fathom death as simply THE END. It frightens the Believer to think of only oblivion at the point of death, The Believer wants there to be more - a heaven, a paradise, a hell for his enemies, a further connection or continuance , a further story, a courtroom of judgment - if not of ourselves, but certainly of our enemies on earth who did injustices to us and escaped earthly retributution! That is why religion reduces God to these human concepts and that is what a rational agnositc cannot accept!!

 

[Agripa]

Friends:

Please do not blur Atheists and Agnostics as one in the same in these discussions by pre-supposing each as eschewing a spiritual tie to the Divine:

I sat on a mountain last year in the dead of a clear night and saw something of God in the section of the Milky Way as it arched above me a billion miles away.

Agnositcs do not do away with God and if we ramain honest, we see something of God at times. But as profound as these personal experiences are, we do not try to go beyond that and define God, or put God in a box fashioned by human hopes and impulses which for us, is what organized religions have done to reflect the human condition and to establish order in the tragic bubble called human life.

 

[reen12]

I can only pray to God as He knows Himself to be.
The I AM Who revealed Himself to Moses.

A man who would speak of ‘flames that never quench,’
forfeits the right to be considered any kind of deity.
Human beings work day and night, to relieve the terrible
suffering of a burn victim. So what kind of ‘deity’
speaks of eternal flames?

Christianity has done much good in the world.
Her members are urged to be both merciful and
charitable towards others. I do not at all think
that the concept of mercy, without Christianity,
would somehow have popped out of thin air.
Forgive your enemies.
Do good to those who have injured you.
Show mercy, if you expect God to show
mercy to you.

How, in the name of heaven, those exquisite realities
could have ended up in inquisitions, utter arrogance,
and the taunting tone - displayed by more than a few
soi disant Christians, is the real mystery.

reen12

 

[StrawberryJam]

Forgiveness and doing good is not unique to christianity reen12.

But, I agree many christians sure are a turn off.

 

[reen12]

I will continue to pray to God, as He knows Himself to be.
Not some inchoate force who cares not about the
creatures that He has made. There is far too much
beauty, in the world, to think otherwise.

In those moments, when I can get beyond the truly wretched behavior
of given Christians, I can sit at the foot of his cross in silence.

I wonder if it’s true, that those who know - do not speak,
and those who do not know - fill the air with their
noisy gongs and clanging symbols of non-sense - literally.

reen12

 

[reen12]

Forgiveness and doing good is not unique to christianity reen12.

But, I agree many christians sure are a turn off.

Hi, StrawberryJam,

You are, of course, right. I have two friends who are atheists.
I have rarely seen more charity, and assitance given,
along with extraordinary patience shown.

I’m trying to find the words that would express, clearly,
that I know that God watches over all of us.

When I was a kid, I was taught about God.
Then, after, I was told about Jesus.
I can remember, with eidetic clarity, sitting there thinking:
“What do we need him for?”

If it turns out that God is indeed triune,
then Jesus heard and saw ,what I heard and saw,
vis a vis the descriptions given of him,
and I think that he would think me nuts,
if I did* not* reject him.
“Good for you, reens. I wouldn’t like me either,
if I was who they say I am.”

reen12

 

[StrawberryJam]

reen12,

I’m going to sleep on what you posted.

I enjoy your posts, and your style.

 

[humble_maid]

This is where agnostics and believers diverge - the agnostic sees it as WE who need a God to administer to us, and that is precisely why WE created a church - it is why WE have made God in the image that WE want: We want God as a kindly but stern old father figure, it is WE who want God as having a suffering Son who removes the primordial need to sacrifice real sons and daughters to an angry God, it is WE who want a subservient female, Mary, to fully submit to a father figure God and bear His Son, no questions asked.

Every thing we think God is really harkens back to our base, infantile, human emotions: Father, Mother, Son, Pain, Sacrifice, Judgement, Justice: All the base emotions and impulses in day to day life are reflected in how we WANT to see God.

Furthermore, the Believer cannot fathom death as simply THE END. It frightens the Believer to think of only oblivion at the point of death, The Believer wants there to be more - a heaven, a paradise, a hell for his enemies, a further connection or continuance , a further story, a courtroom of judgment - if not of ourselves, but certainly of our enemies on earth who did injustices to us and escaped earthly retributution! That is why religion reduces God to these human concepts and that is what a rational agnositc cannot accept!!

Hello Agripa and all doubters,

I sense your anger towards any formed institution that teaches any form of spirituality. Did I not say to search for God and ask His Holy Spirit to guide you. Do you think I am some ignorant puritan that follows blindly without the least bit of wisdom and conscience? You judge me yet you accuse my brethen of doing the same. How interesting.:dts: You can all point fingers but we are to remain silent and dumb?
I do not follow because it appeases my mind to have something to hold on to. I follow because I have been asked by Him who revealed Himself not only in the visible world He created but also to the spirit which He has endowed us all with; if we only take the time and effort to really search within.
You seem to lack much knowledge about the catholic faith; I don’t know how your town practices it but something is definitely wrong in your perception. Here, where I live the ‘devoted’ catholics are a people who do not by any means wish their enemies to hell or pray for judgement upon them. On the contrary we pray daily for their salvation and that God Almighty will have mercy on them and on us(we are all sinners); but there is hope yet. He gives us the title of sons and daughters because He wants us to live with great moral and spiritual values which are clearly taught in the bible and most churches. If people forget these basic principle teachings he/she is not worthy to be His child, regardless of their religious affiliation.
I am sure there are agnostics and atheists and even pagans that have a greater sense of godliness than some monotheistic religious believers. But it is most unjust for you to judge all christians as base and infantile. Do not make the mistake of putting all us Christians in the same boat. Very wrong of you. :tsktsk:
The difference between me and you is that I harbor no hate or disdain for anyone regardless of their beliefs; in fact I love all of life and I pray arduently for their happiness and peace with God the Almighty. Furthermore I by no means can fashion God to my liking; it is He who reveals Himself to the individual who humbles himself enough to accept the truth. Truth lies not solely in words or the confines of a bible or doctrine of a church but within the spirit of man. God granted he opens his spirit to such revelation or else the man is likely to find intellectual arguments to set himself against the obvious truth known to the true believer.
Remark my dear how us catholics on this site truly try to pray and be accomodating to all even if we give arguments we always wish to pray for the good of all ; even to those who hate us. The Lord said that He knows His disciples not by their religious affiliation or outward appearance, or human intelligence but by their love for one another.
You have not embraced the idea of saying “Hello I hope all is well” or “Good Day” or “God Bless You”; no instead you come with your disdain and judge us.
It is ok to be different and express different ideas, this is how wisdom comes about, by asking questions that test and searching high and low for the answers but one must have an open mind without any hate or premeditated ideas.
You have forgotten the basic social courteousy which can stem all humans together. I am not even asking you to be religious or spiritual. Is it so hard to see beyond what is visible; can you not see the good that lies in others. If you truly are intelligent and good then you would seek ways to encourage all souls to find peace and love for one another; not this “I am smarther than thou” or “There is so much evil that no God can exist” attitude. Good day and

P. S. I am not speaking only to you but to others who have a sincere hate for all that is Holy. I pray for all of us. Doubt and fear are man’s greatest enemies. Pray for me if you will. I am troubled by the perception of nonbelievers not because they are different but because of their hate.

 

[humble_maid]

have your ever been to the American south?

Good Day and God Bless,

Can you please (with all sincerity) explain what the south is like and do you come from there? I have an idea but I rather hear it from someone who has experienced it or is from there.

 

[josie_L]

This is where agnostics and believers diverge - the agnostic sees it as WE who need a God to administer to us, and that is precisely why WE created a church - it is why WE have made God in the image that WE want: We want God as a kindly but stern old father figure, it is WE who want God as having a suffering Son who removes the primordial need to sacrifice real sons and daughters to an angry God, it is WE who want a subservient female, Mary, to fully submit to a father figure God and bear His Son, no questions asked.

Every thing we think God is really harkens back to our base, infantile, human emotions: Father, Mother, Son, Pain, Sacrifice, Judgement, Justice: All the base emotions and impulses in day to day life are reflected in how we WANT to see God.

Furthermore, the Believer cannot fathom death as simply THE END. It frightens the Believer to think of only oblivion at the point of death, The Believer wants there to be more - a heaven, a paradise, a hell for his enemies, a further connection or continuance , a further story, a courtroom of judgment - if not of ourselves, but certainly of our enemies on earth who did injustices to us and escaped earthly retributution! That is why religion reduces God to these human concepts and that is what a rational agnositc cannot accept!!

You seem to know a lot about what God should or shouldn’t be, how’s that? Are you praying for truth?

 

[humble_maid]

You seem to know a lot about what God should or shouldn’t be, how’s that? Are you praying for truth?

Dear Friends(everyone),

It was brought to my attention that I may have been harsh to Agripa. I take now the chance to explain wholeheartedly my intentions.
I agree with JosieL that you(Agripa) know alot about what God should and shouldn’t be. As I have stated in a previous post that each individual must come to know God through His Spirit and only by exercising their free will. Let Him guide you; all I could offer is prayers and support to those needing it. We are here afterall to learn and teach eachother regardless of our backgrounds. Again I bear no hate nor do I presume to be more intelligent(human intelligence alone is nothing) but I hope for God to give me and others His Mercy and humble my soul to do what is right.
If I have hurt you please forgive me. However I will stand by my faith only to help not to hurt. Thank you.



P.S. Some of the information I stated was not solely directed at you Agripa, but again to those who truly have hate towards us believers. I had the impression of being labelled unjustly; even so, I shall learn to love more and pray more sincerely as the Good Shepherd Our Lord taught us. Humility and love is the way. Beauty lies in the spirit of truth.

 

[humble_maid]

I think when people who do not believe come to a Catholic Answer Forum it gives all of us, who are part of the Catholic Faith Community an opportunity to speak up for our beliefs in a manner that reflects our faith - so we can be appropriate in how we address all our brothers and sisters - and help refine our own ability to speak up for our beliefs. After all, we encounter people every day who are not Catholics and where better to be able to provide answers then on a Catholic Answer site! Welcome to CAF!

You are right. I encounter people in my everyday life who are sometimes hostile, sometimes indifferent to our beliefs and usually I simply state in a confirmed yet respectable and even loving manner my opinions. I give them a smile and pray for wisdom and charity. It is somewhat different here. Some of the posts have such false accusations that it prompts me to speak out. We must always exercise patience and love that reflects our faith. Thank you for reminding me. Peace be with everyone. Thank you for your note of welcome.

 

[Nebogipfel]

I have ventured (but never responded) onto an atheist forum and the things I heard being said were quite frankly appalling so I don’t think I’ll be visiting an atheist forum again. I’ll give you an example, there used to be a poster by the name of annabea (she was 12) she came here from an atheist website, I just happened to be on the same atheist forum that she was participating in. She was mentioning how she and her friends were taking drugs (she showed pictures) and how her 13 year old friend went missing for some hours with the dealer who was much older, do you know what the response of the other posters were? They laughed it off and said that their annabea was growing up, not even one of them said she was wrong or that she should stop using drugs.

Tragic as that story is, what does it prove, exactly? Grist for the “athiests have no morals” mill, perhaps? Good grief!

I was talking about the average poster, Josie. The average poster on an athiest website is not a pusher of drugs to children.

You know, I think I’m beginning to agree with you. Maybe there just can’t be any dialogue between religious folk and non-believers. Oh well.