Why do Atheists/Agnostics come to CAF?

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No agnostic, atheist or humanist i have ever met or spoken to has ever asserted that the intelligence of humans is supreme.

My response:
By way of interpretation, you refute any miracles that science cannot explain though the evidence is there; therefore one has to conclude that you are selective and biased in your opinions; stating that the proclaimed miracles viewed by many witnesses and without any taint of obstruction of evidence is invalid because some scientist or disbelievers say so? I dare say that is acting as if your information and conclusions are supreme above all others.

For those with faith, no explanation is necessary.
For those without, no explanation will suffice.
 
Do these constants exist or not? Yes they do. Were they in existence from the very inception of the Universe? Yes they were. Therefore, anthropic principle.
oh please, religious logic is making me dizzy :confused:
 
that’s ridiculous. I’ve presented numerous pieces of evidence, including the mythological roots of Abrahamic religion. Moreover, my disbelief doesn’t necessarily pertain to the concept of a creator god (or grand architect concept, even if the idea is obscure and unlikely). My disbelief concerns religion in particular. I don’t think deism is irrational, but I do think Christianity is given the evidence. that’s patently absurd
You presented your opinion on the alleged mythological roots of Judaism. I am afraid that we are not required to accept your opinion as fact. In fact your pieces show that there was in all probability a flood and that God was revealing even before Abraham that salvation would come via a savior born of a virgin.

As far as Christianity being patently absurd-why should we accept your opinion over the billions who have went before you? What special insight do you have that was denied all of the rest us ?
the Egyptians believed in Horus and Osiris for over 2,000 years, does that make it true? Of course not … but I bet their priests were making these same arguments back in the day 🙂
So?
ad hominem and arguments from incredulity is all you have, so it never surprises me when theists resort to it.
Again the ONLY evidence you have offered is that you are smarter than the rest of us.
 
You presented your opinion on the alleged mythological roots of Judaism. I am afraid that we are not required to accept your opinion as fact. In fact your pieces show that there was in all probability a flood and that God was revealing even before Abraham that salvation would come via a savior born of a virgin.
Perhaps there was a flood, and an account of that flood was described in the mythologies of various cultures beginning with the Sumerians (for all we know even before). My point is the striking similarity between the stories, yet one is pagan (polytheistic) and the other of course the Jewish account (monotheistic).
As far as Christianity being patently absurd-why should we accept your opinion over the billions who have went before you? What special insight do you have that was denied all of the rest us ?
I never expressly stated Christianity is absurd. Religion represents mankind’s effort to try and find some value in our existence, allay our fear of the unknown (and death), and understand things we lack a natural explanation for. There’s certainly nothing unusual or absurd about these compulsions.

However, refusing to seriously consider facts that are obviously relevant (and rationalize those facts in an illogical way) is absurd (from an intellectual perspective).

When we know the roots of Judeo-Christianity lie in earlier mythological systems, the most logical and probable conclusion is that Judeo-Christianity is an offshoot of these earlier systems. To ignore the similarities between these systems, say they don’t exist (when we know they do), or say these earlier systems merely represent god’s previous attempts to communicate with man, albeit unsuccessful since the Sumerians and Egyptians misconstrued the message as enumerating a pagan religion (or other even more far fetched rationalizations), then yeah … it can become bizarre.

The fact is I don’t hate or even dislike the individual faith of anyone. The only thing problematic about religion is that individual beliefs have been corrupted and exploited by organizations that monopolize faith for their own benefit. Beliefs themselves don’t burn people at the stake, they don’t enslave, they don’t trap people into lives of indentured servitude, and beliefs cannot in themselves discriminate, wicked men do these things; and this wickedness has been both promulgated and sustained by organized religion.
Again the ONLY evidence you have offered is that you are smarter than the rest of us.
OK
 
As far as Christianity being patently absurd-why should we accept your opinion over the billions who have went before you? What special insight do you have that was denied all of the rest us ?
I know this wasn’t directed at me but I’m going to take a shot at it anyway. This will be my last post in this thread as I’m leaving for a business trip in the morning and hopefully this thread will be long dead by the time I get back.

So let’s see. While Christianity has been the largest religion for the last, I don’t what 1500 years; it has never had a majority of the population of the planet. Even now Christians are only estimated to make up about 1/3 of the population. So the majority of the billions that have come before us did not believe that you are correct. How’s that for special insight?
Again the ONLY evidence you have offered is that you are smarter than the rest of us.
Actually I provided a couple of links to some stuff about supersymmetry earlier in this thread. While supersymmetry is not quite the theory of everything cosmologists are looking for it is observable, testable and makes predictions which can be verified. In short it explains a lot of things about how the universe works. It is currently the consensus theory among the experts in the field. People who I’m willing to bet are smarter than most if not all of us. And guess what? Supersymmetry does not require god to work.

You on the other hand have faith. Faith in stories written by people that didn’t have a clue about physics or that gravity was what kept them from floating off into the sky or even know the planet they walked on was a globe. Now where’s that proof you mentioned?
 
Quote originally posted by Yankee:
“The fact is I don’t hate or even dislike the individual faith of anyone. The only thing problematic about religion is that individual beliefs have been corrupted and exploited by organizations that monopolize faith for their own benefit. Beliefs themselves don’t burn people at the stake, they don’t enslave, they don’t trap people into lives of indentured servitude, and beliefs cannot in themselves discriminate, wicked men do these things; and this wickedness has been both promulgated and sustained by organized religion.”

*If this is so then why are you against God. Religion is not necessarily representative of God though they may have truths about Him; why deny Him then? Are you suggesting that the world religions are so corrupt there cannot be a true religion; in the end it is man who directs it; this can be said of government, science, history. Are we to negate everything that man has done on the premis that he is fallible?

God did leave us many clues in the form of scripture, oral tradition, and miracles; one must examine these and make an assessment not based purely on human intelligence but also through deep thought, meditative prayer and diligent observations through studying.

God asks us to seek Him deep within our psyche and our hearts. He is there. Religion may or may not teach you this. The individual has to endeavor to keep the eyes and ears of his heart open to allow the Spirit of God to speak to Him. It is kind of like opening up a line of communication to somewhere unknown. Then and only then can you begin to understand what and who He is.

God Bless.*
 
To all you who have never gone to Mass. Warning.

Most do not go daily. In fact, I have never seen a child at Mass in the last two months.

It is truly an “obligation” to go on Sat vigil or Sunday.

I actually like going to mass. But, I am loosing interest rapidly.
Worship is a verb.
 
ahhh, yet another brilliant argument by a theist proving god exists 👍
Solving the Mystery Religions

What does modern scholarship have to say about this alleged reliance of early Christianity upon pagan mystery religions (notably Mithraism) for construction of the “Jesus story”? A lengthy entry for “Mysteries” in The Oxford Dictionary of Classical Myth and Religion notes that the first part of the twentieth century was dominated by the notion that various pagan mystery religions had strongly influenced (or even produced) Christian theology and that those religions were believed to be “the essence of oriental religiosity.”

It was also believed that pagan mystery religions found in the Greco-Roman world focused upon “dying-rising” gods who offered salvation to those initiated into them, as Sir James G. Frazer asserted in The Golden Bough, an influential study in comparative folklore, magic, and religion. But scholars in the mid- and late-twentieth century challenged and eventually rejected these assumptions, demonstrating that the pagan mystery religions of the Greco-Roman world were quite different from those found in the ancient Far East. The Oxford Dictionary concludes that “their prominence in modern scholarship is quite disproportionate to their ancient profile.”

In addition, there is little or no evidence that most pagan mystery religions such as the Egyptian cult of Isis and Osiris or the cult of Mithras existed prior to the mid-first century in the forms described in The Da Vinci Code or Holy Blood, Holy Grail. Sufficient source materials to reconstruct a reliable semblance of the pagan mystery religions did not exist until at least the second century.

“Far too many writers use this late source material (after A.D. 200) to form reconstructions of the third-century mystery experience and then uncritically reason back to what they think must have been the earlier nature of the cults,” writes Ronald Nash. Nash, E. O. James, Bruce Metzger, Günter Wagner, Hugo Rahner, and others have pointed out that the pagan mystery religions were quite different from Christianity in significant ways. They were based on an annual vegetation cycle, they stressed esoteric (hidden) knowledge, they emphasized emotional ecstasy over doctrine and dogma, and their central goal was mystical experience. They were also very syncretistic, taking elements from other pagan movements and shedding beliefs with little regard for any established teaching or belief system—completely contrary to the apostolic Tradition so intensely guarded by Christians.

catholic.com/thisrock/2006/0605fea2.asp

p.s. Please read the rest of the article.
 
Quote:
No agnostic, atheist or humanist i have ever met or spoken to has ever asserted that the intelligence of humans is supreme.

My response:
By way of interpretation, you refute any miracles that science cannot explain though the evidence is there; therefore one has to conclude that you are selective and biased in your opinions; stating that the proclaimed miracles viewed by many witnesses and without any taint of obstruction of evidence is invalid because some scientist or disbelievers say so? I dare say that is acting as if your information and conclusions are supreme above all others.

For those with faith, no explanation is necessary.
For those without, no explanation will suffice.
As true as the sky is blue! 👍
 
Summary of the Osiris-Isis-Horus Myth

“In ancient Egyptian tradition, at least as preserved to us, the Osiris-Isis-Horus myth was never recounted as a coherent whole; rather, it served as a source of allusions for a large number of religious texts. It was a sequence of scenes that was unmistakably rooted in the mortuary cult. The only texts that furnish us with a continuous narrative are written in Greek, by Diodorus (1st century BC) and especially by Plutarch (c. 46 - 120 AD). But in their care about a single, meaningful, stimulating story these authors seem to have strayed from the Egyptian form of the myth. The myth has both a prehistory and a starting point. The prehistory is not narrated in the Egyptian texts, yet it is necessary for all that follows (see Jan Assman, Death and Salvation in Ancient Egypt, p. 23).”

“The basic Egyptian myth goes like this: Osiris became ruler of the land, but was tricked and slain by his jealous brother, Seth. According to the Greek version of the story, Typhon (Seth) had a beautiful coffin made to Osiris’ exact measurements, and with 72 conspirators at a banquet, promised it to the one who would fit it. Each guest tried it for size, and Osiris was the one to fit exactly. Immediately Seth and the conspirators nailed the lid shut, sealed the coffin in lead, and threw it into the Nile. The coffin was eventually borne across the sea to Byblos, where Isis, who had been continually searching for her husband, finally located it. She returns the body to Egypt where Seth discovers it, cuts the corpse into pieces, and scatters them throughout the country. Isis transforms herself into a kite, and with her sister Nephthys, searches for and finds all the pieces (except the male member, which she replicates), reconstitutes the body, and before embalming to give Osiris eternal life, she revivifies it, couples with it, and thus conceives Horus.”

“Of the parts of Osiris’s body the only one which Isis did not find was the male member, for the reason that this had been at once tossed into the river, and the lepidotus, the sea-bream, and the pike had fed upon it; and it is from these very fishes the Egyptians are most scrupulous in abstaining. But Isis made a replica of the member to take its place, and consecrated the phallus, in honour of which the Egyptians even at the present day celebrate a festival.” (Plutarch, Moralia V, On Isis and Osiris, 18)

“According to the principal version of the story cited by Plutarch, Isis had already given birth to her son, but according to the Egyptian Hymn to Osiris, she conceived him by the revivified corpse of her husband.”

“Osiris’ rule plays a great role in Egyptian texts. They almost always speak of him as ruler of the realm of the dead, an office he assumed only as a dead god, and almost never about his earthly kingship, which he exercised over gods and men in the world above as successor of Geb. Osiris’ reign came to a violent end as he was slain by his brother, Seth. Later Horus avenges his father Osiris’ death and succeeds him without completely destroying Seth. Thus did death come into the world, confronting the gods with a great problem. This is the prehistory of which there is no coherent narrative in the Egyptian texts (see Jan Assmann, p. 24).”

bringyou.to/apologetics/HORUS.htm

p.s. You should read the rest of the article it is referenced.
 
For the poster that reminded me worship is a verb,

Can you tell me how I can do more than what I am doing in order to make that step?

I imagine it is a verb, a very active and living thing in a community minded way.

I’m sorry to say, my pretty regular attendance, bible reading, and radio listening (yes, relevant radio) is still not getting me over the “bridge” just yet. But, I am not giving up.

I have oddly found myself thinking differently about people I know since being here. Sometimes I find myself wondering what the Moral Theology forum would have to say about certain situations my friends are in.😦
I know that is weird, but I have been doing that.🤷
Mostly with myself though.

And, that could be good but for some reason I think I have become very obsessed with the whole quest I have been on. And, I don’t feel right about it somehow but that is digressing too much.

There is just too much to know.
 
For the poster that reminded me worship is a verb,

Can you tell me how I can do more than what I am doing in order to make that step?

I imagine it is a verb, a very active and living thing in a community minded way.

I’m sorry to say, my pretty regular attendance, bible reading, and radio listening (yes, relevant radio) is still not getting me over the “bridge” just yet. But, I am not giving up.

I have oddly found myself thinking differently about people I know since being here. Sometimes I find myself wondering what the Moral Theology forum would have to say about certain situations my friends are in.😦
I know that is weird, but I have been doing that.🤷
Mostly with myself though.

And, that could be good but for some reason I think I have become very obsessed with the whole quest I have been on. And, I don’t feel right about it somehow but that is digressing too much.

Don’t give up. It’s difficult sometimes because there is so much information that you have to piece together; but the easy part is just pray to the Holy Spirit and ask in Jesus’ name what you really desire and need. God Bless.🙂
 
For the poster that reminded me worship is a verb,

Can you tell me how I can do more than what I am doing in order to make that step?

I imagine it is a verb, a very active and living thing in a community minded way.

I’m sorry to say, my pretty regular attendance, bible reading, and radio listening (yes, relevant radio) is still not getting me over the “bridge” just yet. But, I am not giving up.

I have oddly found myself thinking differently about people I know since being here. Sometimes I find myself wondering what the Moral Theology forum would have to say about certain situations my friends are in.😦
I know that is weird, but I have been doing that.🤷
Mostly with myself though.

And, that could be good but for some reason I think I have become very obsessed with the whole quest I have been on. And, I don’t feel right about it somehow but that is digressing too much.

There is just too much to know.
Maybe you’re trying to intellectualize the faith too much? Or it could be you’re forcing the situation/conversion rather than letting it flow naturally from God, my advice to you, just open your heart and mind to him especially in prayer and be patient. Don’t analyze it too much.
 
Maybe you’re trying to intellectualize the faith too much?
Wouldn’t want to do that :confused:

Just keep looking at the watch as it swings back and forth, back and forth, you’re getting sleepy, sleepier, your asleep :eek:
 
Wouldn’t want to do that :confused:

Just keep looking at the watch as it swings back and forth, back and forth, you’re getting sleepy, sleepier, your asleep :eek:
What is it with you Yankee that you have to take what I say out of context, even though I specifically added the words “too much” as an indicator of how one can get to carried away with intellectualizing the faith? Faith is also a matter of heart that’s what I wished to convey. God bless Yankee.

p.s. Stop mocking me please.
 
All the scientific theories in the world, Jack, cannot replace the love, nurture, healing, endearment with another human being. You look at the bangs, we look at YES…the Word Made Flesh, the origin of our new Life…to some it comes when they are young, others come into Its existence when they turn 80.
 
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