Why do athiests bother coming to this website?

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Kismetji said:
Well, it all depends on your system of morality. Some may point to a consequentialist ethic, others might suppose something like deontology, where what happens is irrelevant.

I think you need a synthesis. The approach I take is that cause and effect are good INDICATORS of moral truth, but they themselves do not exhaust it. So, karma is the key, as it were, of unlocking moral truth. Eating too much lobster bisque and becoming gluttonous is a bad thing not because you will turn obese, but because it is an inherently selfish and egotistical thing to do. The ill-effects of eating too much are simply an indication of this one-sidedness and the fact that you fall into greater and greater pride and egoism as you let various addictions take over your life.
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What does it mean to be selfish, and why is it wrong to be selfish?
 
CatholicIllini said:
Do they just enjoy arguing with other people and attacking their beliefs? I wonder what evolutionary mutation compels them to do that.
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Catholicillini:

No, rather all comers seek illumination. We illuminate the atheist and they illuminate the theist. The more we are illuminated by them and, yet, do not lose our faiths, the more they solidify our friendship with our Lord. All things have a purpose, it seems. 🙂

God bless,
jd
 
Kismetji said:
Two can play at this game. You know we aren’t getting anywhere.
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You are just trying to dodge the issue. Its not a game. I am asking you a reasonable question. We are not getting anywhere because you keep passing the buck instead of answering the question. Can you answer the question? Or are you that kind of person who simply believes something because its pleasing to you?

The word selfishness, in the sense you are using it, assumes that it is objectively true that we ought to do something that is not selfish. Since you have not yet justified your assumption, i am asking you “why is selfishness inherently an affront to God and your true self?” For that matter, why is it true that you must be true to yourself? What determines that truth?

I am not asking you what are the practical pragmatic or subjective benefits of actions. I am asking you what it is that makes it objectively true (regardless of personal opinion) that some actions are that which we ought not to do or ought to do.
 
We evolved as social animals. Selfishness undermines the success of the group and limits reproductive success. It has been selected against, and non-selfish behaviours have been selected for. It is likely though that at times some aspects of selfish behavior is positively adaptive, so we retain a mental and physical make-up capable of going in either direction, but with the general emphasis being on non-selfish social success. Like many suggestions arising from sociobiology this is a hypotheses and not a very well expressed one at that! As we learn more about genes I feel sure that something like this will be scientifically identified to the level of theory, or even fact. That’s why unbelievers come here - so we can say things like that to people unlikely to agree, which is so much better than saying them to people likely to agree. I’m sorry if that sounds selfish!🙂
 
Hokomai said:
We evolved as social animals. Selfishness undermines the success of the group and limits reproductive success. It has been selected against, and non-selfish behaviours have been selected for. It is likely though that at times some aspects of selfish behavior is positively adaptive, so we retain a mental and physical make-up capable of going in either direction, but with the general emphasis being on non-selfish social success. Like many suggestions arising from sociobiology this is a hypotheses and not a very well expressed one at that! As we learn more about genes I feel sure that something like this will be scientifically identified to the level of theory, or even fact. That’s why unbelievers come here - so we can say things like that to people unlikely to agree, which is so much better than saying them to people likely to agree. I’m sorry if that sounds selfish!🙂
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Many animals are solitary and are very successful. Solitary is not selfish, negative and detrimental. Neither is sociability necessarily selfless and good. Think of the tower of Babel.
I would think that humans work better in groups insofar as they can co-operate to achieve something more quickly and successfully than otherwise. But we are not animals, we are not bound by any evolutionary principles. Unlike any other animal.
 
Hokomai said:
We evolved as social animals. Selfishness undermines the success of the group and limits reproductive success.
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That does not tell me why its wrong. Why should it be true that we ought to maximize reproductive success? Why is it true that we ought to be social? All you have done is presented another pragmatic argument. You have not told me why it is objectively true that anything ought to be or not be done. That i am a social animal, doesn’t tell me why i ought to be social; it just tells me that this is my default nature.
 
MindOverMatter2 said:
You are just trying to dodge the issue. Its not a game. I am asking you a reasonable question. We are not getting anywhere because you keep passing the buck instead of answering the question. Can you answer the question? Or are you that kind of person who simply believes something because its pleasing to you?

The word selfishness, in the sense you are using it, assumes that it is objectively true that we ought to do something that is not selfish. Since you have not yet justified your assumption, i am asking you “why is selfishness inherently an affront to God and your true self?” For that matter, why is it true that you must be true to yourself? What determines that truth?

I am not asking you what are the practical pragmatic or subjective benefits of actions. I am asking you what it is that makes it objectively true (regardless of personal opinion) that some actions are that which we ought not to do or ought to do.
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OHH! Well, if you put it THAT way, I know you aren’t just jerking me around ! 🙂

Well, here is the thing. At some point all these questions of ‘ought’ and ‘is’ bottom out. Why is being unselfish over being selfish ultimately good I have no answer for. Neither do I have an answer for why being good is ultimately better than choosing evil.

I can refer to things like the law, the benefits of morality, the idea of love and a meaning for oneself that can be had, that can’t be had in the face of immorality or nihilism, and so on. But ultimately, you cannot come to a final solution of why this course is better. Somebody might always come around who thinks it isn’t. You might say he has a lousy view to the facts but little more. You would have to keep on inferentially justifying yourself in relation to him and there would be no end of what basically amounts to shop-talk. That is the problem of inveterate doubt and questioning.
 
Hokomai said:
We evolved as social animals. Selfishness undermines the success of the group and limits reproductive success. It has been selected against, and non-selfish behaviours have been selected for. It is likely though that at times some aspects of selfish behavior is positively adaptive, so we retain a mental and physical make-up capable of going in either direction, but with the general emphasis being on non-selfish social success. Like many suggestions arising from sociobiology this is a hypotheses and not a very well expressed one at that! As we learn more about genes I feel sure that something like this will be scientifically identified to the level of theory, or even fact. That’s why unbelievers come here - so we can say things like that to people unlikely to agree, which is so much better than saying them to people likely to agree. I’m sorry if that sounds selfish!🙂
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Hokomai:

In that logic, then, ALL morality is a learned behavior. The failure(s) of a group must occur (and be witnessed) first, then posterity can learn from it/them. Boy, I wouldn’t want to have been in any of those first groups! 👍

God bless,
jd
 
MindOverMatter2 said:
That does not tell me why its wrong. Why should it be true that we ought to maximize reproductive success? Why is it true that we ought to be social? All you have done is presented another pragmatic argument. You have not told me why it is objectively true that anything ought to be or not be done. That i am a social animal, doesn’t tell me why i ought to be social; it just tells me that this is my default nature.
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You are absolutely right. If you are an unbeliever you must see morality as something socially determined or (and this is important) socially decided. Morality comes not from a belief on God, or scripture, or tradition, or even observations through that lens such as ‘natural law’. It derives from democratic assent. I entirely appreciate that alongside the Universal Declaration of Human Rights this approach can also give you Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge. However, if you don’t believe in God, you don’t have much choice! By the way I do think that religion, especially Christianity and Catholicism, has a lot to add to the social process of deciding morality - it is one of the reasons I come here.
 
JDaniel said:
Hokomai:

In that logic, then, ALL morality is a learned behavior. The failure(s) of a group must occur (and be witnessed) first, then posterity can learn from it/them. Boy, I wouldn’t want to have been in any of those first groups! 👍

God bless,
jd
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Can’t disagree with that! In fact many early hominoid groups are extinct. The frightening thing is that the reason may be that our improved social success allowed us to do that to them! Being ‘social’ is not necessarily folk-dancing. It can also be war. On the other hand some social behaviours is probably instinctive, like the willingness of many of us to care for, and about, the children of others. Not all animals are like that.
 
Kismetji said:
…]Well, here is the thing. At some point all these questions of ‘ought’ and ‘is’ bottom out. Why is being unselfish over being selfish ultimately good I have no answer for…]ultimately, you cannot come to a final solution of why this course is better…]
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I like the honesty of your answer. It would have fit in well with a conversation my sister and I were having an hour ago about the limits of human knowledge, the concept of satisficing, and how a lot of things we treat as true are “provisionally true” at best. I’m not implying that you feel the same way, as I don’t want to put words in your moth. But I wanted to say that I could fit your reply into the conversation.
 
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