Why do bad christians exist?

[Atheistic_man]

We all know that some persons call themselves christians. But we also know the history of christianity. We know how many persons were killed like witches or because they put a cross on themselve with two fingers (Old Believers vs Nikonians).

We all have heard about sex scandals in catholic church. Maybe you have heard about habits in orthodox church.

**.So I want to ask: Why we need the christianity if it doesent make people better? **

You can say, of course, are all atheists ideal? Is there only good people among teachers, doctors, police officers? I answer: No. But there is small (but important) difference between atheists and theists, between non-religious organisations and churches: There is no Immortal, All-knowing, Powerful Supernatural Being over atheists (over policemen, doctors and so on). But you, theists, say that it is, but you totally ignoring that being. You are ignoring your “holy book” named bible, you are ignoring 10 rules your god gave to u. I can understand ordinary believers (for them believing is only hobby), but I cant understand why professional believers (priests) give the finger to their main Boss, ignoring him.

 

[Eleve]

I’m sure that, given the level of invective and incoherence in the original post, that this one won’t be around for long. But just for the sake of discussion:

**.So I want to ask: Why we need the christianity if it doesent make people better? **

1. 
   *]Perhaps the claims of Christianity are true. In that case, we have reason to believe it in the same way that we have reason to believe the theory of relativity, which also doesn’t “make people better.”
   *]The evidence you cite is entirely insufficient to show that Christianity “doesn’t make people better.” At best, the kind of things you’re citing might indicate that Christianity doesn’t make people better at adhering to the values which you believe in. But if traditionalist Christians are right, then there are also important values such as chastity and piety which are probably not going to be fostered by irreligion.

 

[MichaelHowling]

Yes, it’s true. Many of we believers have acted and act horrible. Although many do awsome and good things…there’s always failing. But is it because of Christianity there were sex scandles and murders etc etc ??? No, it was due to the lack of Christian living.

Atheism on the other hand makes Christianity look like eye strain.

Think of all the atheistic groups and the damage they have done… The Bolsheviks, Communist China, Nazis, and soooo many more…MILLIONS upon millions of death, carnage, degredation of the human person!

As for we Christians…yes we fail. We’re human. And we have to mourn our sins, and work harder to grow and do better.

Lastly, Christianity brought forth universitys, guarded societies, created hospitals etc etc etc

You know…it’s funny isin’t it…for all our scandalous behavior …the church thrives and grows. Any other corporation would have crumbled. Jesus said < " and the gates of hell will NEVER prevail against you" . Lol, we christians have been inadvertently have been trying to destory his church for centuries but to no avail.

What has atheism brought to the world ? hopelesness, some of the most monstrous groups of human beings trying to take over the world, and the de-humanization of the person…and we need to go ?

Please dont judge we who don’t take our medicine well in the hospital of christianity…look at those who have followed the doctors orders and took their treatments…the saints! They have helped change the world!

 

[Atheistic_man]

I’m sure that, given the level of invective and incoherence in the original post, that this one won’t be around for long. But just for the sake of discussion:

1. 
   *]Perhaps the claims of Christianity are true. In that case, we have reason to believe it in the same way that we have reason to believe the theory of relativity, which also doesn’t “make people better.”

1. 
   Theory of relativity doesen’t have a deal with moral, but christians try to teach how the othere people must live.
   

   The evidence you cite is entirely insufficient to show that Christianity “doesn’t make people better.” At best, the kind of things you’re citing might indicate that Christianity doesn’t make people better at adhering to the values which you believe in. But if traditionalist Christians are right, then there are also important values such as chastity and piety which are probably not going to be fostered by irreligion

   .
   
   All things u have to believe in are written in your book bible.
   
   Tongue moving is not the same as bag moving. You can say and propagade all you want. But you, christians dont do things you propagade.

 

[jnickelsen]

**.So I want to ask: Why we need the christianity if it doesent make people better? **

I am not sure about some of the comments you made (just not sure what you mean), but sine this ^ was in bold it caught my eye.

I don’t know if I would frame it that way: i.e., “why we need christianity if it doesn’t make people better?”

I have some ideas on a response, but I think it might be helpful if you explained your conception of Christianity: do you feel that the intention of Christianity is, in essence, there to “make people better”, or is that a derivative of it, or something else?

All the Best,

JN

 

[Atheistic_man]

Think of all the atheistic groups and the damage they have done… The Bolsheviks, Communist China, Nazis, and soooo many more…MILLIONS upon millions of death, carnage, degredation of the human person!

Please read more carefully my first post

**You can say, of course, are all atheists ideal? Is there only good people among teachers, doctors, police officers? I answer: No. But there is small (but important) difference between atheists and theists, between non-religious organisations and churches: There is no Immortal, All-knowing, Powerful Supernatural Being over atheists (over policemen, doctors and so on).

We atheist have nothing exept other people. You christians have that Being you cant kill, buy or trick, and you ignoring him.

Nazis) “Gott mit uns” ahha) Totally atheistic phrase) Hitler believed in Providence) He was total atheist)

Lastly, Christianity brought forth universitys, guarded societies, created hospitals etc etc etc

Hospitals were in ancient Greece. Universities too. When christians came they started with destroying libraries, killing scientists, mathematicians

You know…it’s funny isin’t it…for all our scandalous behavior …the church thrives and grows. Any other corporation would have crumbled. Jesus said < " and the gates of hell will NEVER prevail against you" . Lol, we christians have been inadvertently have been trying to destory his church for centuries but to no avail.

Pagans exist too, and Gates of Christianity havent prevealed against it. So Paganism is true.

What has atheism brought to the world ?

Atheism brought freedom. It said " You are not a slave, a sheep. You are free"

 

[Atheistic_man]

I have some ideas on a response, but I think it might be helpful if you explained your conception of Christianity: do you feel that the intention of Christianity is, in essence, there to “make people better”, or is that a derivative of it, or something else?

You christians have 10 rules. God wrote them by his own hand (second edition). You have some rules your church gives to you (visit missa every Sunday and so on). As i understand that rules are created for only one thing: make some positive changes in person

But as wrote some people in this topic: christians are weak, not ideal and so on. So there is no difference between believers and non-believers. So why we need christianity? If there is no difference, why we should pay more?

 

[MaryT777]

Atheists don’t recognize their need for a savior.

Once they “figure that out” they’ll run towards Jesus.

It happens all the time.

Mary.
“The Church is a hospital for sinners”

 

[OmniShaun]

Christianity does make people better.

However, it only works to the extent that a person allows or wills it to do so.

It doesn’t take a genius to look at the news and see many people professing to be Catholics but then turning around and saying or doing something in opposition of Catholic Teaching.

I could just barely imagine the nightmare it would be if we didn’t have the Church.

I think that it is a subtle error in logic to assume that people would be no worse without the positive influences of the Church.

 

[atheistgirl]

It said " You are not a slave, a sheep. You are free"

Free from what

A slave to what

You make it sound like your atheism is your religion, which is quite ironic.

My atheism is, frankly, nothing, but a single position on a single issue regarding deity.

It doesn’t say anything else to me, or about me, it doesn’t enslave me, and it doesn’t free me from anything.

Let me ask you directly and politely, are you here for productive discussions with others, to exchange ideas and learn, or are you just here to insult people of faith

If you had an ounce of insight into the human condition, you’d know why some people of faith don’t always live up to the ideals of that faith - it’s called being human.

Sarah x

 

[georget]

Why do bad atheists exist?

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Free from what

A slave to what

You make it sound like your atheism is your religion, which is quite ironic.

My atheism is, frankly, nothing, but a single position on a single issue regarding deity.

It doesn’t say anything else to me, or about me, it doesn’t enslave me, and it doesn’t free me from anything.

Let me ask you directly and politely, are you here for productive discussions with others, to exchange ideas and learn, or are you just here to insult people of faith

If you had an ounce of insight into the human condition, you’d know why some people of faith don’t always live up to the ideals of that faith - it’s called being human.

Sarah x

This is why I absolutely love having you on this site. You are calm, rational, open minded and polite (traits I personally have found lacking in most of the atheists I have dealt with.)

To the OP, even the other atheists here are calling your argument flawed (in essence, if not directly). I would also ask you your purpose in coming, because frankly, you seem more like a troll than someone seeking knowledge.

 

[jnickelsen]

You christians have 10 rules. God wrote them by his own hand (second edition). You have some rules your church gives to you (visit missa every Sunday and so on). As i understand that rules are created for only one thing: make some positive changes in person

But as wrote some people in this topic: christians are weak, not ideal and so on. So there is no difference between believers and non-believers. So why we need christianity? If there is no difference, why we should pay more?

I see.

Well, I suppose somebody might be able to develop some thoughts on the notion of needing “Christianity” to “make people good”. Perhaps.

But I wouldn’t focus on that.

I don’t look at my faith first and foremost (or even secondarily…) as a mode by which to “make me good”. But in a related way, I look at it as a way of redeeming the fact that I, like us all, aren’t good: we all fall short. A Christian doesn’t become one because they need a list of do’s and don’ts to make them “good”; they come because they are convicted that they are not good, and realize their need for Redemption, and are convicted that Christ offers this redemption.

In response to the conviction that they are not good, they do, yes, have commandments, and rules, and disciplines, etc. If they realize they are not good, and come to Christ, then it would necessarily imply that there must be a “better way”. This better way is the life of Christ, of forming one’s conscience in light of goodness and truth, of exercising virtue, etc.

Looking to lists of “commandments”, if you will (in the broadest sense) has the derivative of increasing one’s knowledge of what is good and right and just, and increasing their awareness of what isn’t. More importantly, what isn’t in their life. In this sense it is a sort of self-awareness. And I wouldn’t limit it by any means to 10 commandments, or Jesus’ refined “two”, or the Scriptures as a whole. I would also include virtue ethics and reason, natural law, etc. In this sense, then, the Christian studies “the commandments”, if you will, for the same reason why Plato or Socrates studied philosophy.

So much more could be said, but I will end with this… The title of your post says, “Why do bad Christians exist?”, which you then follow with your comments and responses to the subsequent posts. I would say that if bad Christians didn’t exist, or, more broadly, if bad people didn’t exist then we wouldn’t need Christ. Our moral wrongness doesn’t decrease the need for Christ (Christianity). Rather, it increases the need.

If it didn’t, then the same question could be asked for why we need laws, why we need philosophy (specifically ethics), why we need a host of things. At root there is a fundamental flaw in the question itself.

All the Best,

jn

 

[TheReYUI]

Free from what

A slave to what

You make it sound like your atheism is your religion, which is quite ironic.

My atheism is, frankly, nothing, but a single position on a single issue regarding deity.

It doesn’t say anything else to me, or about me, it doesn’t enslave me, and it doesn’t free me from anything.

Let me ask you directly and politely, are you here for productive discussions with others, to exchange ideas and learn, or are you just here to insult people of faith

If you had an ounce of insight into the human condition, you’d know why some people of faith don’t always live up to the ideals of that faith - it’s called being human.

Sarah x

You just made my day…

 

[Atheistic_man]

Free from what

From illusions.

A slave to what

Have you read the bible? It says that a person is a slave of god

Let me ask you directly and politely, are you here for productive discussions with others, to exchange ideas and learn, or are you just here to insult people of faith

to exchange ideas and learn

I think that it is a subtle error in logic to assume that people would be no worse without the positive influences of the Church.

They would be better I think. The worse variant: They will be the same
What church gives to people what makes them better? hmm

Why do bad atheists exist?

I wrote the answers two times. First in first post. Second I copied and put it in other post in bold font

Atheists don’t recognize their need for a savior.

You say about Khrishna I think? Why Jesus? Sabbatai Zevi may be much better Messiah

 

[jnickelsen]

… you’d know why some people of faith don’t always live up to the ideals of that faith - it’s called being human.

Sarah x

I think that much of what Sarah said here is accurate, and conveys an understanding of the Christian better, perhaps, than most Christians I know.

 

[Jm102294]

There are bad Christians because if the percentage of people in general who do bad things was less than 100% then the entire message of Christianity is worthless. In other words, everybody is bad. You have already acknowledged this. I think there are some very important implications of this simple fact that are unclear to you, however.

Christians are humans, just like atheists, Muslims, Hindus, etc. They do not cease being human when they become Christians. They do not necessarily stop screwing up and doing evil things (though, if they are actually living out their faith, those screw ups should be fewer). Obviously, when you give someone power, they can use that power for good or evil. Most of the history you referred to is examples of people who claim to be Christians using that power to do evil (take the various holy wars and the torture of non-believers at various times for example). Whether or not people who do evil in the name of Christ are honestly mistaken or are simply using the name to give themselves legitimacy for their own selfish desires can’t really be known.
As for the Catholic priests involved in the sex scandals, they were pretty obviously not acting very Christian.
By the way, “ordinary believer” and “professional believer” are not supposed to be separate things. Sure, there are people who make their living by working in the Church, but there is not supposed to be any difference between the faith or actions of the Priest and the 19 year old Christian college student. If the belief is but a hobby (I’m assuming you’re referring someone playing the “church game”), then they will not be living out the Christian faith.

In short, Christianity itself is not to blame for the bad behavior of Christians since the bad deeds of Christians are acts that go AGAINST Christianity, and the fact that Christians sometimes behave badly is really evidence of the reality of Romans 3:23

 

[TheReYUI]

From illusions.

Have you read the bible? It says that a person is a slave of god

to exchange ideas and learn

They would be better I think. The worse variant: They will be the same
What church gives to people what makes them better? hmm

I wrote the answers two times. First in first post. Second I copied and put it in other post in bold font

You say about Khrishna I think? Why Jesus? Sabbatai Zevi may be much better Messiah

Read about the lives of the Catholic saints and tell me this people are not better because of the Church.

You’re argument is flawed…
just let it go…

 

[jnickelsen]

…] So I want to ask: Why we need the christianity if it doesent make people better? …]You can say, of course, are all atheists ideal? Is there only good people among teachers, doctors, police officers? I answer: No. But there is small (but important) difference between atheists and theists, between non-religious organisations and churches: There is no Immortal, All-knowing, Powerful Supernatural Being over atheists (over policemen, doctors and so on). But you, theists, say that it is, but you totally ignoring that being. You are ignoring your “holy book” named bible, you are ignoring 10 rules your god gave to u. I can understand ordinary believers (for them believing is only hobby), but I cant understand why professional believers (priests) give the finger to their main Boss, ignoring him.

I reread this.

It sounds like you actually urging Christians to better live out the Gospel. And for this I commend you!

Don’t forget: we are free beings. We can choose to not live up to even our stated ideals. This is true in marriage. In marriage the spouses make promises to each other: they propagate ideals. They are bound in an institution that is intended to help them in this regard, which is recognized by the State, etc. Yet spouses fail to live up to their ideals all the time. The best of these circumstances lead to mutual forgiveness, growth, maturity, and, hopefully, sanctity. The worst of these circumstances end in divorce.

Yet the fact that spouses don’t live up to their ideals, and the fact that over 50% of all marriages end in divorce isn’t a reason to give up on marriage as an institution.

Likewise, the Christian’s failure to live up to their ideals do not say anything about the “need”, if you will, for the institution. All that it says is that free rational creatures who happen to be Christian don’t live up to their ideals.

Bless them, and me first and foremost.

All the Best,

jn

 

[CB_Catholic]

Just take a look at the 20th century alone and see the results of godless atheistic philosophies being imposed on people and the massive slaughter of innocent people under the governments they formed–I’m talking about Communism, Naziism, etc.–and tell us how bad Christianity is.

And just take a look at the world around you with the gross moral depravity, lack of conscience, slaughter of innocent unborn humans, euthanasia of the unwanted elderly, the explosion of sexually transmitted diseases, the breakup of the family unit, the proliferation of pornography, etc. because human beings don’t want to follow simple rules that keep mankind civilized and cognizant of his responsibilities to others as a member of the human race, and tell us how bad Christianity is.

You can honestly say that atheism is preferable and more conducive to the peaceful progression and development of the human race? After 6 million Jews and millions of others were slaughtered, and after millions are being exterminated and have been exterminated by atheistic Communist and totalitarian governments in this century alone?

I am talking ONE century alone here. Godless Atheism has been responsible for more death and destruction in ONE century than 2000 years of bad behavior by some Christians.

And the reason that many young people subscribe to atheism is that they don’t like the rules that God has given people to live by to keep them sane, healthy, and happy, and that permits the human race to flourish instead of self-destruct. They want to do their own thing, and not have their so-called “freedom” restricted. It’s that simple. They don’t even have a sound philosophical basis for their atheism.

Sure, most atheists are peaceful people and law abiding citizens. But look at the fruits of it, and tell us how much better atheism is.