Why do Catholic believe that Mary is sinless?

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Tertullian – Yes, in 215, Tertullian wrote (The Soul 41:3), “God alone is without sin. The only man who is without sin is Christ; for Christ is also God”. Was he speaking against the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception in this quote or was he generalizing to his audience – not commenting on Mary, but commenting on the fact that everyone he addressed had sinned. After all, as the classic argument goes, should he be speaking literally, then it implies that children and the mentally incapacitated have sinned. In De carne Christi, xvii, he sets up the foundation for our understanding of the Immaculate Conception, and since his strongest quote “against” our belief, as you propose, doesn’t even mention Mary, I think it is a stretch to say that he disbelieved in it.

*Clement of Alexandria *supposedly wrote, “The Word Jesus Christ alone was born without sin.” Three problems. For one, I again can’t find any place that will document the text from which this verse was taken. Secondly, even if he said this, I refer back to my notes on Tertullian. Clement wasn’t attacking our beliefs on Mary (her name isn’t even mentioned), but speaking generally to his audience (As does Paul in Romans 3:23). Thirdly, even if I was wrong on these accounts, Clement lived at the end of the 4th century. Hardly one of those I described in my post as having learned so directly from the initial disciples.

So all that we are left with is St. Basil, who, also in the fourth century (so he doesn’t fit the description in my post of those who learned directly from the first disciples and the apostles), wrote that he sees in the sword, of which Simeon speaks, the doubt which pierced Mary’s soul (Epistle 259). Again, I did a search of Basil’s documents and came up with no such quote. I will be the first to admit that I may have made a mistake, so please provide me with a link if you can. Even so, supposing he did write this, if this is all we have in the end, then I would say my post speaks to the “approaching unanimity” you requested.
 
Ave Maria!

Yes,
Saints can be named who took various stances. Were not St. Vinvent Ferrar and St. Catherine of Siena on opposite sides during the horrible time of several popes?

But the saints do not declare infallibly and the Holy Church does.
The DOGMA of the Immaculate Conception is an infallible promulgation. That about ends the argument. We either accepts the teachings and dogmas of the Church or we don’t. The saints named were all before the Dogma.

Totus Tuus…
 
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jdc1084:
But then to bring forth Mary who is clean, wouldn’t the same have apply to her mother? If God made Mary pure from sin in the womb how could he not do the same for Jesus? Thanks again for all the replies. I truly am taking them into serious thought.
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The blessing passed down for generations, kept in the Ark of the Covenant, is said to have been given to Mary’s Father, Joachim. Her mother also is said to have had something to do with the Essenes, who were said to have been like a religious community led by a prophet. These people are said to have been the ones longing for the redeemer (the pharisees weren’t), and it was revealed to the appropriate persons at the appropriate times. So the conception of Mary involved holy persons and the special blessing of God promised since the time of Adam.

Apart from that, though, I would like to point out that both John the Baptist and the prophet Jeremia were sancitifed in their womb and born without original sin.

Jeremias 1:5 Before I formed thee in the bowels of thy mother, I knew thee: and before thou camest forth out of the womb, I sanctified thee, and made thee a prophet unto the nations.

Luke 1:15 For he shall be great before the Lord; and shall drink no wine nor strong drink: and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother’s womb. … 44 For behold as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy.

This shows that God can and has sanctified some while in their womb, apart from the parent. But it is fitting that Mary should be even more pure than these.

hurst
 
Wow Hurst…I hadn’t put that connection together before! Thank you… 🙂
 
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VociMike:
We believe it because the Church, which we believe was founded by Christ and is guided by the Holy Spirit, teaches it. God decided that it was fitting for His only begotten Son, at the incarnation, to have not only a perfect divine Father, but also a perfect human mother. Mary’s human perfection is a gift of the Father to the Son, and a gift of the Son to all the world.

As to “all have sinned”, it doesn’t exclude Jesus either. And what about aborted babies, what sin have they committed?
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The babies is a sticky one , as Catholic’s we believe in Original sin , although they have not committed a sin themselves , they are with sin since they have not been baptized and a state of grace with God re-established.
 
Jesus is God and sinless therfor the flesh from which is is conceived MUST be sinless as well. Flesh from Flesh. HE is what She is. He came from Her , therefor for Him to be sinless She must be sinless.
 
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willy:
The babies is a sticky one , as Catholic’s we believe in Original sin , although they have not committed a sin themselves , they are with sin since they have not been baptized and a state of grace with God re-established.
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Limbo?
 
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willy:
The babies is a sticky one , as Catholic’s we believe in Original sin , although they have not committed a sin themselves , they are with sin since they have not been baptized and a state of grace with God re-established.
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Babies aren’t too tricky with regards to this topic.

The verse reads, “All have sinned.”

Original sin doesn’t involve having sinned, but being born into the consequences of it.
 
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jdc1084:
But then to bring forth Mary who is clean, wouldn’t the same have apply to her mother? If God made Mary pure from sin in the womb how could he not do the same for Jesus? Thanks again for all the replies. I truly am taking them into serious thought.
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No. Because if God MADE Jesus pure in the womb, Jesus, God the Son would have been redeemed from sin.

Can God the Son be a sinner in need of redemption? No. He is the Redeemer. He is sinless by nature. But if He inherited a sinful nature from Mary, He would not be sinless.

Mary, not being God, can be redeemed, even at the moment of her conception. Therefore she does not need to have sinless parents.
 
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willy:
Jesus is God and sinless therfor the flesh from which is is conceived MUST be sinless as well. Flesh from Flesh. HE is what She is. He came from Her , therefor for Him to be sinless She must be sinless.
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Look, willy, this is not what the Church teaches.
CCC:
[490](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/490.htm’)😉 To become the mother of the Savior, Mary “was enriched by God with gifts appropriate to such a role.”

Note: not “gifts NECESSARY for such a role”, but “appropriate”. Because it was fitting and right that it be so, Mary was conceived without OS.

To quote Ineffabilis Deus:
In fact, it was quite fittingthat, as the Only-Begotten has a Father in heaven, whom the Seraphim extol as thrice holy, so he should have a Mother on earth who would never be without the splendor of holiness.
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Not necessary - fitting. There is no “have to” about the IC of Mary. There is no “MUST” at all, unless you’re arguing from Gen 3:15 and prophetic fulfillment or typologically as either the New Eve or the Ark of the New Covenant (and there it’s only a must because God said He would, not because it was strictly necessary). Jesus didn’t strictly need to come from someone who had been immaculately conceived - that’s partially why St. Thomas Aquinas disagreed with the idea (and no, it’s not heretical to disagree before a dogmatic definition is issued). Quoting Lutwig Ott (p. 202, Fundimentals of Catholic Dogma), “the preservation from original sin, is, according to [1308 theologian John Duns] Scotus, the most fitting kind of redemption. Thus, it was fitting that Christ should redeem His mother in this manner.” Not necessary, fitting. Not must, appropriate.

If you’re going to continue to argue that it is a “must” or is “necessary”, I challenge you to produce any official Church document which agrees with your position. If you do not, I would recommend not endorsing this position any more.

The fact remains, if you’re going to say that Jesus “couldn’t” have come from impure flesh, you’re always going to run into the problem of infinite regression ("…then Mary’s mother had to be sinless, and her mother, and her mother’s mother, etc."). It’s an unsound position, and it’s not the position that the Catholic Church officially puts forth.

If you want a professional apologist’s word on it, I recommend Tim Staples’ six CD set on Mary.

God Bless,
RyanL
 
I had an issue with this for years, but I get it now. My reasoning for this is as follows…

When we are baptized, we are cleansed from Original Sin, right? So it’s as simple as this…at the moment of Mary’s conception the same graces that God applied to us at baptism (whether it happened to us as an infant or as an adult) were placed on Mary at her conception. We are cleansed from Original Sin after we are born, she was merely cleansed from Origianl Sin before she was born…you see what I mean?
I mean think about it…had not Adam and Eve not sinnned, we would have all been Imaculate Conceptions!!! This was God’s original plan for us. It has not waived. It has not changed. The relation between Mary and Jesus reflects the relation between prefallen human beings. We talk about Jesus being the New Adam and Mary being the New Eve…see what I mean?
When Original Sin is cleansed from us, the effects are still there…(sickness, disease, death, the vulnerability to commit actual sins…) I believe that Mary was subjected to the same effects. I’m sure she had a cold or something from time to time…and Dogma is not clear on whether or not Her Assumption was before during or after her death. I’d like to think that due to her Original Sin being removed at Conception, that since it did’t have the time to really anchor in and stain her soul, that she was less inclined to actually sin than the rest of us. Therefore, “full of grace” is the most appropriate thing to say about her. God is good.
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First I have to admit, I did not read all the responses to this thread, there are quite a few, and I understand.
One thing people who have a hard time with our loving Mother being sinless tend to not fully understand, is that her blood flowed in the veins of God incarnate, The God who created the heavens and earth and everything that is, shared the same flesh of this humble woman who totally gave herself to the will of the Father. So, me, not having a high intellect, but a good sense for the truth, find it impossible, and totally nuts, if I may say, that if you believe that Jesus is God, how could he have dwelt in the woumb where sin was present.

-Giovanni
 
But I can’t find anywhere in the Bible that actually talks about it.
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Many Catholic scholars feel this passage (Judges 6: 36-40) is a reference to the purity of the Blessed Mother (i.e. the Immaculate Conception, which, according to Pope Pius IX is defined as, “The most holy Virgin Mary was, in the first moment of her conception, by a unique privilege of Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ the Redeemer of mankind, preserved free from all stain of original sin.”

" 36
Gideon said to God, “If indeed you are going to save Israel through me, as you promised,
37
I am putting this woolen fleece on the threshing floor. If dew comes on the fleece alone, while all the ground is dry, I shall know that you will save Israel through me, as you promised.”
38
That is what took place. Early the next morning he wrung the dew from the fleece, squeezing out of it a bowlful of water.
39
Gideon then said to God, “Do not be angry with me if I speak once more. Let me make just one more test with the fleece. Let the fleece alone be dry, but let there be dew on all the ground.”
40
That night God did so; the fleece alone was dry, but there was dew on all the ground." --Judges 6: 36-40 (from the New American Bible)

According to the book, Practical Commentary on Holy Scripture by Bishop Frederick Justus Kneck, D.D. (Imprimatured in 1923), page 203 this passage means,
Code: 
"*The fleece wet with dew* is, according to the holy fathers of the Church, a type of the Incarnation of the Son of God. His human nature taken from the purest of creatures is the white fleece; the Divine Person of the Son of God descending and uniting himself to it is the dew. Thus it is said (Psalm 71, 6): 'He (God) shall come down like rain upon the fleece.'
 *The fleece left dry* is a type of the Immaculate Conception of Our Lady. Even as this fleece remained dry when all the ground around was wet, so was Mary alone preserved from the stain of original sin, which adheres to everyone else."
I’ll see if I can find more scriptural helps for you in this area. God Bless.
 
Another take would be to understand the relationship of Mother Mary with God. She is the daughter of God the Father, mother of Jesus Christ, and spouse of the Holy Spirit. No other person in history can claim this privelege. For this very intimate relation with God, she is fitting to be sinless.

Given all that, St. Joseph as we Catholics hold to believe did not have marital relations with Mary. Many cannot imagine a celibate marriage. But, personally, as a man, knowing that her womb carries God, a ‘just’ man would respect that sanctity with the utmost honor.

in XT.
 
I found more helpful references for the original poster.

From Beginning Apologetics 1: How to Explain and Defend the Catholic Faith by Father Frank Chacon and Jim Burnham. Since I am a beginner at apologetics, I’ll just copy straight from the book, which is written in Q and A format.

page 21:
"Q: Why do Catholics believe mary was immaculately conceived? Romans 3:33 says that 'all have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God.'
A: Luke writes that Mary is full of grace, highly favored. (Lk: 1:37) ‘For with God nothing shall be impossible.’ She is the ‘woman’ of Gen 3:15 whose emnity with Satan and sin is absolute. She is the Ark of the Covenant (Ex 25: 11-21) made to hold the living word of God: a holy tabernakle not made of the purest gold, but of the purest flesh. St. Paul is emphasizing the universal aspect of sin extending to Jews and Gentiles alike. Babies have not sinned; Adam and Eve before the fall had not sinned; Jesus never sinned. These are some exceptions that fall outside St. Paul’s condemnation. Mary is another.

Q: If Mary never sinned, she doesn’t need a savior. So why does Mary say in Luke 1:47: "My spirit rejoices in God MY SAVIOR."
A: Mary was saved by the merits of Christ, just as we are. The difference between Mary and other Christians is that her salvation from sin was more perfect. While we are freed from original sin at our baptism, Mary was preserved from original sin at her conception. But Jesus is the Savior in both cases."

Hope this helps. God Bless.
 
There have been some good points made here. GoldenArrow just referenced how Mary is the woman of Gen 3:15. Notice how Jesus himself often refers to Mary as woman. She is also termed woman in the book of Revelations. Mary as woman is very pertinent to the Immaculate Conception. Before the fall, Eve did not have a name but was called woman. Obviously there is nothing that “proves” the immaculate conception in the Bible, but there are things that allude to it.

I would also like to stress what some people have said before me: it is fitting but not necessary. I remember reading Louis De Montfort’s consecration to Mary this past summer. If it didn’t have imprimatur, I would have thrown it in the trash. It took me a while to accept it, but upon further reflection I thought about the case of the priesthood. There is no inherent reason that the priesthood would be necessary for God to grant us salvation, but 1) it is fitting, and 2) Christ called for it. When protestants deny Mary’s place because it is not necessary, they take the first step in abolishing the priesthood because it is not necessary.
 
The verses below are the references listed by the Catholic Answer’s Bible to answer the question **"How can we as catholics believe in Mary’s Immaculate Conception, since the bible teaches that ‘all have sinned’ (Rom 3:23). **

The insert (between pages 546 and 547 of the Catholic Answers bible) first defines the language and translation:

"The word “all” (pas in Greek) has several different meanings. In holy Scripture, it does not mean literally “every single one without exception.” For example, in the same book, Paul writes that “all Israel will be saved” (Rom: 11:26), but we suspect that many will not be saved. And in Romans 15:14 Paul describes members of the Roman Church as “filled with all knowledge” (cf. 1 Cor 1:5), which clearly cannot be taken literally. This is also a question of a common Hebrew idoim. In Romans 3:10-12, St.Paul quotes Psalm 14:2-3, which reads, in part: “All have gone astray; all alike are perverse. Not one does what is right, not even one.” (cf. Ps 53:1-3). Yet in the very next Psalm, David refers to those who walk “without blame” (15:2). Obviously, then, the lament in 14:2-3 is emotional and exaggerated language and not intended as a literal utterance. Since St. Paul is referring back to these sorts of passages, the interpretation of his words should take them into account, too. Catholics believe that Mary is sinless based on Luke 1:28, where she is described as the “favored one,” or “full of grace” (the Greek kecharitomene comes from the root charis, which is rendered “grace” throughout the New Testament), and --among other things–on parallels with the Ark of the Covenant. See verses below:

Genesis 3:15 “I will but emnity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel.”

Jeremiah 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I dedicated you, a prophet to the nations I appointed you.”

Luke 1: 14-16: “And you will have joy and gladdness, and many will rejoice at his birth, for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He will drink neither wine nor strong drink. He will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from his mother’s womb …”

Luke 1:34-35: "But Mary said to the Angel, “How can this be, since I have no relations with a man?” And the angel said to her in reply, “The Holy Spirit of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore the Child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God.”

Exodus 24: 15-16 “After Moses hade gone up, a cloud covered the mountain. The glory of the Lord settled upon Mount Sinai. The cloud covered it for six days, and on the seventh day he called to Moses from the midst of the cloud.”

Exodus 40: 34-35: "Then the cloud covered the meeting tent and the glory of the Lord filled the Dwelling. Moses could not enter the meeting tent, because the cloud settled down upon it and the Glory of the Lord filled the dwelling.

1 Kings 8:10: “When the priests left the holy place, the cloud filled the temple of the Lord.”

(Golden Arrow’s fallible interpretation: The two exerpts from Exodus and the reference from 1 Kings are Old Testament precursors to New Testament events. The Cloud represents the Holy Spirit, the spouse of Mary. The meeting tent and Mt. Sinai represent Mary herself, and the Dwelling and the place of the burning bush represent the womb of Mary, both made Holy Ground by the power of God. The Womb of Mary is often referred to by Catholics as the Temple of the Lord, or the Ark of the New Covenant. Again, we see Old Testament and New Testament parallels, which are common in Scripture).

continued …
 
Luke 1:39-45 “During those days Mary set out and traveled to the hill country in haste to a town of Judah, where she entered the house of Zechariah and greeted Elizabeth. When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filed with the Holy Spirit, cried out in a loud voice and said, 'Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For at the moment the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy. Blessed are you who believed that what was spoken to you be the Lord would be fulfilled.”

Luke 1: 56 “Mary remained with her about three months and then returned to her home.”

2 Samuel 6:10-12 “So David would not have the ark of the Lord brought to him in the City of David, but diverted it to the house of Obededom the Gittite. The ark of the Lord remained in the house of Obededom the Gittite for three months, and the Lord had blessed the family of Obededom and all that bleonged to him …”

(Golden Arrow’s fallible interpretation: Again, we see OT and NT parallels. The Ark represents Mary. The house of the Obededom the Gittite represents the family of Elizabeth, the preborn John the Baptist, and Zechariah. This seeks to illustrate that Mary does, indeed, represent the Ark of the New Covenant).

[Note: I have more references, but I am getting very tired and it’s nearing my bedtime. Will submit the rest tomorrow.]

God Bless!

Continued…
 
I remember reading Louis De Montfort’s consecration to Mary this past summer. If it didn’t have imprimatur, I would have thrown it in the trash.
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Beautiful book! And yes, it is deep and challenging. I had the same reaction, initially, but kept reading because the preface said that St. Louis De Montfort’s book had a strong impact on Pope John Paul II’s Marian spirituality–and I just loved Pope John Paul II. I actually should read it again. I read it when I was really new to the Church and Christianity—like less than a year. I think I’d get more out of it now that I’ve actually read most of the bible and the catechism. LOL!
There is no inherent reason that the priesthood would be necessary for God to grant us salvation, but 1) it is fitting, and 2) Christ called for it.
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Ahh. Also a very good point!
She is the daughter of God the Father, mother of Jesus Christ, and spouse of the Holy Spirit. No other person in history can claim this privelege. For this very intimate relation with God, she is fitting to be sinless.
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Yes! She does deserve the singular privilege of the Immaculate Conception and, also, the lack of concupiescence (the tendency to sin, or the sinful nature, that we are born with in Original Sin). So … Mary lacked the sinful nature because of the Immaculate Conception, which made her full of grace. She was, and is, a very special lady.
 
I had a protestant say that since John the Baptist’s Father and others were ‘filled with the Holy Spirit’ then that must mean they were sinless too. Since Mary is filled with grace and sinless. How would you counter that argument?
 
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