Why do Catholics and other religious people have such opposing views about Abortion, Health Care, and Government involvement in our lives?

[gakroeger]

Reading the various threads on CAF, and the demographic results from the last election, I have been mystified by the 180 degree opposite opinions on pro choice, pro life, health care, illegal alien treatment, Senator Edward Kennedy’s funeral, etc. by people who on both sides claim to be Catholic and following in Christ’s footsteps. How is this possible? Logically since there is only one truth; one of these groups must be wrong. So, how did they get so divided and who is right?

Obviously, it is possible that on some minor detail the group that is right over all may be wrong on the small detail, however, overall on the big picture such as abortion being acceptable or not acceptable, there isn’t any grey area, it is wrong or it isn’t wrong.

Let us start with a very basic disagreement about health care and the current administrations stated goal of “sharing the wealth”. Polls indicate that 53% of Catholics voted for Obama knowing his position on health care, sharing the wealth, and abortion. Most of the arguments from these Catholics who voted for Obama seem to center around “charity”. They believe by voting for a person’s right to chose to carry a pregnancy to term or to abort the fetus is being “charitable” to the women with the choice.

Regarding health care they believe that it is not fair that some people have all the access they need to health care and other people do not. Some even believe that everyone has the right to the same level of life style regardless of what they have done personally to achieve a given life style.

The Bishop of Boston has even stated that Catholics who objected to the pomp and circumstance of the Kennedy funeral were being uncharitable. It may be a little unfair to group all of these categories together and place people in one group or another; obviously Archbishop Sean Cardinal O’Malley of Boston is not part of the group I refer to as the 53% who voted for Obama, nor is he among those who support choice on abortion. I mention him only because of his comment about Kennedy’s funeral and the use of the term “charity” in supporting a particular position.

To me, the answer lies in Pope Benedict XVI’s most recent encyclical Caritas In Veritate. In his encyclical Pope Benedict addresses this problem with disconnection of Charity from Truth and using it to justify relativism.

Excerpt from Caritas In Veritate (paragraph 3)

I am aware of the ways in which charity has been and continues to be misconstrued and emptied of meaning, with the consequent risk of being misinterpreted, detached from ethical living and, in any event, undervalued. In the social, juridical, cultural, political and economic fields — the contexts, in other words, that are most exposed to this danger — it is easily dismissed as irrelevant for interpreting and giving direction to moral responsibility. Hence the need to link charity with truth not only in the sequence, pointed out by Saint Paul, of veritas in caritate (Eph 4:15), but also in the inverse and complementary sequence of caritas in veritate. Truth needs to be sought, found and expressed within the “economy” of charity, but charity in its turn needs to be understood, confirmed and practised in the light of truth. In this way, not only do we do a service to charity enlightened by truth, but we also help give credibility to truth, demonstrating its persuasive and authenticating power in the practical setting of social living. This is a matter of no small account today, in a social and cultural context which relativizes truth, often paying little heed to it and showing increasing reluctance to acknowledge its existence.

Caritas-in-Veritate

Charity must always be linked with truth. If it is not we get the situations we are discussing here. Charity is used to promote a lie; and there is always a consequence to this. In the case of the pomp and circumstance of the Kennedy funeral; many Catholics begin to question whether abortion is really all that serious, they may think that since the Church herself is honoring a man who so clearly acted in a manner contrary to Church teaching on abortion, maybe, Kennedy was right. Here charity is clearly being connected to a lie.

Let us address the issue about all people deserve to get the same level of health care; this is certainly desirable in all of our minds. However, is it reasonable and attainable, and to what extent does it become unfair to others in our attempt to make this health care available to everyone? If one individual works very hard all his or her life to prepare for their retirement, if they have paid into the Medicare system for 40 years and another person spent their life partying and wasted all their life earning on drugs, alcohol, cigarettes, and other vices and reaches old age with nothing to support him or herself with, how much should the person who worked his or her whole life be “mandated” to give to the person who was irresponsible? And beyond that, how much debt on succeeding generations should our Country go into to provide for the person who has been irresponsible?

I am not arguing here our obligation to help our fellow man; we all continue to have that personal obligation. The question is, does the government have the right to force its citizens to fork over their own hard earned private property so the government can decide in its godless infinite wisdom, who deserves this property more than the individual they take it from.

Now, let us address what this ideology that our government has been following for some time leads to. By following this practice of telling the irresponsible individual that the government and its taxpaying citizens has the responsibility of providing for them regardless of their own personal responsibility, they have established a whole sub culture of people who now live their lives with this ideology as part of their psyche. They have given up their personal freedoms and have acknowledged that they now depend on the government to provide for them. Corrupt power hungry politicians love this because they have locked in voters who will always vote for them because they have now been “conditioned” to rely on the government for their livelihood.

What is wrong with this? It is for one thing unsustainable; once the government kills the incentive of productive people by punishing their hard work, they will give up and join the crowd. And this my friends is exactly what is happening to our country, and it is all by design. We have seen it before in communist countries all over the world, it is an ideology that suffocates and will eventually fall. Another warning sign that this ideology always follows is that it must remove God from their midst because nothing can be more powerful then the government. Sound familiar? Wake up America….

 

[livi]

Some Catholics follow the Church’s teachings and some don’t. Catholics who are pro-abortion don’t.

 

[Portrait]

Dear Gakroeger,

Unfortunately Catholics, like other Christians, have fallen natures and the corollary of a propensity to sin so that they do not always form a correct judgment in all things. Moreover, all of us are influenced and indeed informed by our social upbringing (with all its attendant prejudices) as well as by our subjective thinking on a whole range of issues, thus it is hardly surprising that there are differing and conflicting opinions, be it over the Senator Kennedy funeral, Abortion or Homosexuality. Alas, sometimes we are just very badly informed about various issues or we just go with whatever is the current prevailing
popular opinion simply to avoid being controversial or because of the fear of man.

So is there a solution to this rather stubborn problem given that people, even the most noblest and devout, will always have fallen natures owing to original sin: will we ever “…be of one mind striving side by side for the faith of the gospel”? (Phillip. 1: 27). It was clearly a problem in St. Paul’s day, hence the exhortation. We will surely only “attain to the unity of the faith” (Eph. 4: 11) when we submit our wills in humility and consent to the Magisterium of Holy Mother Church on doctrine and morals. In those cases where the Church has not declared its position on any given issue, then, of course, a certain degree of latitude is perfectly permissible and Catholics can agree to differ amicably without rancour. Thus, for example we know that Abortion is a mortal sin for the Church has stated it is so, we either obey the Church’s teaching or disobey it, as Livi above so tersely put it ; however, on the subject of National Health Care there is room for a legitamate difference of opinion, I mean that a Republican Catholic may well see the matter differently form a Catholic Democrat. The well known adage, attributed to Richard Baxter, is apposite here:“In essentials unity, in non- essentials liberty but in all things charity”.

As a marginal note on who warrants the benefits of the Healthcare system I think that this is a highly complex issue on which equally devout , equally loyal and obedient Catholics will differ, depending on a number of factors. Since I am not an American citizen I am not fully cognizant with all of the issues involved, suffice for me to say, generally speaking, I think Healthcare should be universally available for all members of society without exception. Discrimination is a very slippery slope and there is no telling where it might end, just how far do you take it? In any event some poor souls who appear to be work shy and therefore “irresponsible” may in reallity have serious mental health problems that preclude them from either obtaining a job, or, if they did obtain one, from holding it down - how many employers will take on an incompetent social inadequate who is always bungling? In any civilised Christian country surely these poor souls are worthy of state provision (i.e. Social Security and Incapacity Benefits) and health care? However, I really do appreciate your concerns also about the “unsustainability” of the whole system in the long term, the cash has to come from the pockets of the US taxpayer; again, the issue regarding incentive to work - if somethings gratis then why work for it? Clearly the hardcore unemployed cannot be allowed to continue in their own sweet way unchecked, they must face thier resposibilities* if* they are able and capable, by coercion if need be.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

 

[gakroeger]

Dear Portrait

While I agree with virtually everything you added to the discussion and recognizing that I probably allowed some strong feeling about this particular administration to show through my dissertation, my main point was supposed to be the message from Pope Benedict XVI’s Caritas-in-Veritate. I believe the Pope has hit the nail on the head as to why so many Catholics use charity without truth to paint black and white issues as grey, thereby allowing themselves to pacify their consciences. As we know the truth is indeed written on every human heart; one must rationalize if one is to ignore this voice.

Warmest best wishes right back to you……

 

[Portrait]

Dear gakroeger,

Thankyou for your posting.

I also would concur with what our Holy Father says when he speaks of Catholics who use charity without truth to paint black and white issues grey - bang on target. Sadly I was only lamenting this very fact yesterday on CAF in another thread about morally repugnant TV shows like Seinfield and the detestable Simpsons.. Not only do we have Catholics defending such distasteful and offensive material but actually declaring that it is perfectly acceptable to watch them, notwithstanding the degrading immorality.

Now it is incontrovertible that earnest Christians who are striving to keep themselves “unstained by the world” will give this filth a very wide berth indeed. However, It is very fashionable nowadays to finely nuance what are clearly black and white issues in order to render them allowable and acceptable - virtually reducing them to grey areas to appease troubled consciences and making it appear uncharitable or cranky to be decided or dogmatic; I have seen this quite frequently on these forums, but I have also seen faithful Catholics like yourself who have kept their garments clean and not surrendered to the spirit of our age.

Truly, these are days of great spiritual declension wthin our Church owing to the widespread worldliness of so many Catholics who are quite happy going with the flow.
We need, I think, to be much in prayer regarding this, for the days are evil and the times are waxing late.

Blessings on you and may the peace of God be yours.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

 

[Bluegoat]

Have you considered looking at what Catholics outside the USA think about those issues?

While you would likely find similar views on supporting abortion, you would find their views on health care and government intervention are, on average, far different. The vast majority would not only support publicly funded health care, but think that it was closely allied to Catholic teachings. And there would also be more room in many cases for a more “involved” government. That too they would relate to the teachings of Catholicism.

American Catholicism is a specific thing - it has a particular nature, and Catholics that immigrate from other places notice it. Other countries do to of course - but I often see that people on CAF seem to assume that American Catholicism is typical or defining somehow. I think it is important to realize that isn’t so - not necessarily so that people will change their mind, but so they realize that their ideas are not universally identified by most as being a litmus test for “real” Catholicism.

 

[gakroeger]

Have you considered looking at what Catholics outside the USA think about those issues?

While you would likely find similar views on supporting abortion, you would find their views on health care and government intervention are, on average, far different. The vast majority would not only support publicly funded health care, but think that it was closely allied to Catholic teachings. And there would also be more room in many cases for a more “involved” government. That too they would relate to the teachings of Catholicism.

American Catholicism is a specific thing - it has a particular nature, and Catholics that immigrate from other places notice it. Other countries do to of course - but I often see that people on CAF seem to assume that American Catholicism is typical or defining somehow. I think it is important to realize that isn’t so - not necessarily so that people will change their mind, but so they realize that their ideas are not universally identified by most as being a litmus test for “real” Catholicism.

I am not sure what your point is. Apparently the majority of Catholics in America also support publicly funded health care based on the way they voted in the last election. Although this along with non Catholics appear to be changing at a pretty rapid rate as people hear more of what this health care proposal actually it. It is amazing to me (just as it was during the campaign) that Obama can clearly state what is intentions are and people although they disagree with those intentions support him anyhow.

Obama has clearly stated that he intends to cut health care to seniors under Medicare. He has stated that he wants review boards to examine each case for expensive medical procedures and determine if the procedure will be allowed. He has further stated that he does not believe that expensive medical procedures should be performed on the terminally ill; that they should instead, receive death counseling. In spite of this very truthful proclamation many people are not hearing it, on the other hand it is starting to soak in for many others, and this is the reason the health care plan is becoming unwanted by the majority of moral thinking people.

This administration has demonstrated its lack of respect for human life at all stages. This is the reason that many (myself included) who would not be against a publicly supported health plan if it is administered by a God fearing moral government, are most definitely opposed to this administrations (and any administration that follows this ideology) proposals.

Back to your issue of the difference between American Catholics and those in Europe for instances; it is a well know fact (and at least part of the reason we are getting saddled with this left wing ideology) that all faith in Europe (not just Catholic) has been on the decline for years. Catholics in America, even though many do not know or practice their faith, still go to Mass on Sunday. This is not true in Europe. I have been in huge cathedrals in Europe for Sunday Mass and they are virtually empty.

As far as the Catholic Church teaching on publicly funded health care, it goes back to the original issue on the subject of subsidiarity.

osv.com/tabid/7621/itemid/5462/What-the-Church-teaches-about-big-government.aspx

It may appear from outside that American Catholicism is different from other Countries, however, the differences are strictly cultural. Catholic teaching like the Holy Mass is universal and the same in every country in the world. This is one of the really neat things about traveling as a Catholic; I can go into a Catholic Church anywhere in the world and feel right at home with the Mass and Christ’s presence there.

 

[rtconstant]

I am not sure what your point is. Apparently the majority of Catholics in America also support publicly funded health care based on the way they voted in the last election. Although this along with non Catholics appear to be changing at a pretty rapid rate as people hear more of what this health care proposal actually it. It is amazing to me (just as it was during the campaign) that Obama can clearly state what is intentions are and people although they disagree with those intentions support him anyhow.

Well his election for many I think was more of a statement about general feeling towards the GOP than about the merits of the planks in his platform. I support Universal Healthcare, but I’m not a particular fan of his plan other than the fact everyone will be covered. My opinion is that it still leaves to much in the hands of the insurance companies, but I guess we have to start somewhere.

Obama has clearly stated that he intends to cut health care to seniors under Medicare. He has stated that he wants review boards to examine each case for expensive medical procedures and determine if the procedure will be allowed. He has further stated that he does not believe that expensive medical procedures should be performed on the terminally ill; that they should instead, receive death counseling.

The above rumors were started by Betsy McCaughey a republican, and they got picked up and took on a life of their own. They are however false. It was based off of a section of the stimulus bill of 2009 that called for the creation of council that would research and correlate various treatments and share that information with physicians. It however specifically states that this council has no authority to determine treatment or coverage.

HR. 3200 itself does call for the creation of a similar body, which can determine the types of physicians that will make decisions on treatment, however, the physicians themselves will make the call and those physicians can be chosen by the patient. Further HR 3200 specifically states that this board or “Commission” and the “Center” that it belongs to will have the authority to determine treatment or coverage from either public or private sources.

In spite of this very truthful proclamation many people are not hearing it, on the other hand it is starting to soak in for many others, and this is the reason the health care plan is becoming unwanted by the majority of moral thinking people.

Mostly people who are buying into the propaganda, and are not aware that universal systems exist in many nations and work very well. Morality has nothing to do with it. Obviously covering everyone is moral. However, there is a lot of misinformation out there, and a lot of propaganda is being spread by the GOP, and other “conservative” groups.

This administration has demonstrated its lack of respect for human life at all stages. This is the reason that many (myself included) who would not be against a publicly supported health plan if it is administered by a God fearing moral government, are most definitely opposed to this administrations (and any administration that follows this ideology) proposals.

So because you don’t like some of the president’s politics you will oppose any policy he comes up with regardless as to whether it will help or not? I’ve yet to have lived under a president who I really cared for all that much. But when they did something right I was more than happy to support them.

Back to your issue of the difference between American Catholics and those in Europe for instances; it is a well know fact (and at least part of the reason we are getting saddled with this left wing ideology) that all faith in Europe (not just Catholic) has been on the decline for years. Catholics in America, even though many do not know or practice their faith, still go to Mass on Sunday. This is not true in Europe. I have been in huge cathedrals in Europe for Sunday Mass and they are virtually empty.

The poster wasn’t really asking about Europeans though, they were asking about the views of practicing Catholics. America’s “conservative” views are not demonstrative of the world’s Christian’s at large. It is something that we should all keep in mind. Humility and objectivity dictates that it should at least be taken into consideration.

 

[ahollars]

Go to YouTube and type “Obama’s own words” into the search. There is a library of information there about what his intentions and goals are, and it’s not difficult to find. Even our own organization, Human Life International, has said these bills open the door for taxpayer funded abortions and other atrocities. Anyone who thinks that this is the greater good, and that it is more important, has sold out.

 

[Califman831]

Go to YouTube and type “Obama’s own words” into the search. There is a library of information there about what his intentions and goals are, and it’s not difficult to find. Even our own organization, Human Life International, has said these bills open the door for taxpayer funded abortions and other atrocities. Anyone who thinks that this is the greater good, and that it is more important, has sold out.

Amen brother

 

[rtconstant]

Go to YouTube and type “Obama’s own words” into the search. There is a library of information there about what his intentions and goals are, and it’s not difficult to find. Even our own organization, Human Life International, has said these bills open the door for taxpayer funded abortions and other atrocities. Anyone who thinks that this is the greater good, and that it is more important, has sold out.

I’ll do you one better. Go to the actual bill in question and read what is proposed. Anyone can sound bite something. Heck I’ll even give you the benefit of the doubt and say that he meant exactly what you’re saying he meant. What he has proposed, however, is not what you’re saying. Debate what’s actually happening. Not propaganda.

 

[ahollars]

I’ll do you one better. Go to the actual bill in question and read what is proposed. Anyone can sound bite something. Heck I’ll even give you the benefit of the doubt and say that he meant exactly what you’re saying he meant. What he has proposed, however, is not what you’re saying. Debate what’s actually happening. Not propaganda.

What is actually happening is that every amendment proposed to ban the funding of abortions, euthanasia, embryonic stem-cell research, contraceptives, and other things open for debate like identification verifying, has been voted down in committee. Legal precedent has been set: if it is not forbidden by law, then by default, it cannot be discriminated against, therefore it must be funded so that “the poor have equal access”. This is the farce that the Democrats are hiding behind when they say that abortion isn’t even mentioned. Of course not, yet why are they militantly fighting to keep wording out that would ban funding?

Read between the lines. We are talking about people who are lawyers when they’re not lawmakers.

 

[gakroeger]

The above rumors were started by Betsy McCaughey a republican, and they got picked up and took on a life of their own. They are however false. It was based off of a section of the stimulus bill of 2009 that called for the creation of council that would research and correlate various treatments and share that information with physicians. It however specifically states that this council has no authority to determine treatment or coverage.

Rumors? Did you read the post before commenting on it? Did I not say that Obama clearly stated this? How in the world can you write off an on camera statement by Obama as rumor? This is typical “head in the sand” response. If you don’t agree with a statement, call it rumor and ignore it.

HR. 3200 itself does call for the creation of a similar body, which can determine the types of physicians that will make decisions on treatment, however, the physicians themselves will make the call and those physicians can be chosen by the patient. Further HR 3200 specifically states that this board or “Commission” and the “Center” that it belongs to will have the authority to determine treatment or coverage from either public or private sources.

Is this what you hope or what you know? You really need look more deeply into what is happening. I know from your comments you deeply want a full coverage health care plan, but you need to take off the blinders. You are going beyond just believing what they say instead of what they do, you are actually ignoring the bad things they say they are going to do and hoping they will do what you want. This is exactly what the voters did during the campaign and election last year. I suspect from your comments that you were one of those who in spite of Obama stating he would pass FOCA voted for him anyhow. I would have hoped that those on your side of this argument would have learned something by now.

Mostly people who are buying into the propaganda, and are not aware that universal systems exist in many nations and work very well. Morality has nothing to do with it. Obviously covering everyone is moral. However, there is a lot of misinformation out there, and a lot of propaganda is being spread by the GOP, and other “conservative” groups.

Again, are you accusing Obama of spreading propaganda? He is the one saying these things.

So because you don’t like some of the president’s politics you will oppose any policy he comes up with regardless as to whether it will help or not? I’ve yet to have lived under a president who I really cared for all that much. But when they did something right I was more than happy to support them.

Are you Catholic? Do you believe that killing is wrong? Do you consider abortion to be politics? The point is Obama has proven he does not believe human life is sacred at all stages. He has stated over and over his support for abortion and his desire to limit health care for the elderly and terminally ill. (Even though you insist he is spreading rumors when he says this, I believe he is deadly serious) Are you just hoping that he supports your particular stage of development?

The poster wasn’t really asking about Europeans though, they were asking about the views of practicing Catholics. America’s “conservative” views are not demonstrative of the world’s Christian’s at large. It is something that we should all keep in mind. Humility and objectivity dictates that it should at least be taken into consideration.

What do you suppose the poster meant when he asked “Have you considered looking at what Catholics outside the USA think about those issues?”
This issue is much larger than conservative, liberal, republican, democrat, or whatever you chose to call yourself or others. This issue is about right and wrong, moral, and immoral. I don’t care what label you use, you must decide whether your position is right or wrong and we all have the responsibility to seek the truth where ever it leads. I am comfortable I am doing this and I sincerely hope you do also.

 

[Portrait]

Dear fellow posters,

President Obama, a very charismatic figure, is trying to save the world without the Ten Commandments, especially the fifth. His pitiless vision sees countless babies put to death. He believes that our Lord Himself condones his support for legal recognition of so-called “same-sex unions”! He wishes to provide same-sex couples with the full range of benefits enjoyed by hetrosexual couples and thus he wants to repeal the Defence of Marriage Act; this Act is discriminatory, it interferes with states’ rights and it is time it was overturned. This Act does not recognise same-sex “marriages” so Mr. Obama says get rid of it!

Therefore in the light of the above Mr Obama is not the great evangelist that he might like us all to think he is and Catholics should think twice before runing to his defence. The one supreme moral authority on this earth is the Catholic Church, with the Pooe as head.

Warmest good wishes

Portrait

 

[aspawloski4th]

While I’m no Obama fan. If it weren’t for governemnt healthcare for my wife’s health problems, I’d be a widower now. This like that are more important than any lofty principle.

 

[gakroeger]

While I’m no Obama fan. If it weren’t for governemnt healthcare for my wife’s health problems, I’d be a widower now. This like that are more important than any lofty principle.

What government health care was that?

 

[aspawloski4th]

What government health care was that?

Medicare, and for a bit of time Medicaid. She is disabled.

 

[rtconstant]

Rumors? Did you read the post before commenting on it? Did I not say that Obama clearly stated this? How in the world can you write off an on camera statement by Obama as rumor? This is typical “head in the sand” response. If you don’t agree with a statement, call it rumor and ignore it.

Yeah I read what you said but, as what you were saying flies in the face of the bill itself it seemed a little hinky.

Is this what you hope or what you know? You really need look more deeply into what is happening. I know from your comments you deeply want a full coverage health care plan, but you need to take off the blinders. You are going beyond just believing what they say instead of what they do, you are actually ignoring the bad things they say they are going to do and hoping they will do what you want. This is exactly what the voters did during the campaign and election last year. I suspect from your comments that you were one of those who in spite of Obama stating he would pass FOCA voted for him anyhow. I would have hoped that those on your side of this argument would have learned something by now.

Its what’s in the bill. Take it or leave it.

Again, are you accusing Obama of spreading propaganda? He is the one saying these things.

And yet the bill itself says otherwise. I can trust YouTube or I can just read the policy.

Are you Catholic? Do you believe that killing is wrong?

I don’t think the Academy is watching.

Do you consider abortion to be politics? The point is Obama has proven he does not believe human life is sacred at all stages. He has stated over and over his support for abortion and his desire to limit health care for the elderly and terminally ill. (Even though you insist he is spreading rumors when he says this, I believe he is deadly serious) Are you just hoping that he supports your particular stage of development?

I guess since you decided to devolve to emotional rhetoric you were hoping that I would as well? Anyway, Yes I’m against abortion have I said otherwise? His bill supports pretty much the opposite of everything you’re saying, and strangely enough what your saying seems to coincide with a chain email (mentioned above) that was circulated by the republicans and refuted by multiple sources. So pardon me if I’m taking all of this with a grain of salt.

What do you suppose the poster meant when he asked “Have you considered looking at what Catholics outside the USA think about those issues?”
This issue is much larger than conservative, liberal, republican, democrat, or whatever you chose to call yourself or others. This issue is about right and wrong, moral, and immoral. I don’t care what label you use, you must decide whether your position is right or wrong and we all have the responsibility to seek the truth where ever it leads. I am comfortable I am doing this and I sincerely hope you do also.

What the poster meant was Catholics outside the US not just countries outside the US. Lots of things happen in Europe that has nothing to do with what the Catholics in those countries support. However, those Catholics may have different views on what constitutes Christian political thought.

 

[ahollars]

Its what’s in the bill. Take it or leave it.

What’s not in the bill is just as important, if not more. I find it curious that you completely dodged my last post. Are you telling me that is propaganda as well?

 

[gakroeger]

Yeah I read what you said but, as what you were saying flies in the face of the bill itself it seemed a little hinky.

Its what’s in the bill. Take it or leave it.

And yet the bill itself says otherwise. I can trust YouTube or I can just read the policy.

I don’t think the Academy is watching.

I guess since you decided to devolve to emotional rhetoric you were hoping that I would as well? Anyway, Yes I’m against abortion have I said otherwise? His bill supports pretty much the opposite of everything you’re saying, and strangely enough what your saying seems to coincide with a chain email (mentioned above) that was circulated by the republicans and refuted by multiple sources. So pardon me if I’m taking all of this with a grain of salt.

What the poster meant was Catholics outside the US not just countries outside the US. Lots of things happen in Europe that has nothing to do with what the Catholics in those countries support. However, those Catholics may have different views on what constitutes Christian political thought.

In other words, you read into an ambiguous bill that was written by very questionable individuals and read by very few in congress or elsewhere what you want to see and believe what you hope for and ignore what Obama and those pushing for this power grab actually say?

No wonder we are in such trouble in our society.