I could probably use the same quotes to support my stance, as there is no explicit statement that we should pray to the saints (and I do understand the difference in the usage of the word “pray” here, so I’m not implying idolatry).
Jon
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Jon
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neweyes
Guest
I think what makes me uncomfortable with this is that there are many who will pray to saints to intercede, when they can go right to Christ! He is the most powerful supreme defense against any enemy that you have…so why go anywhere else?
So, I take it then, in your non-denominational church, you do not at any point ask others in the congregation to pray for you or a family member, or a friend or relative who is sick, etc. Afterall, why ask Joe in the pew behind you to pray for your sick Aunt Molly, when you can go straight to Christ? Right?I think what makes me uncomfortable with this is that there are many who will pray to saints to intercede, when they can go right to Christ! He is the most powerful supreme defense against any enemy that you have…so why go anywhere else?
Jon
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neweyes
Guest
Nope, we ask other Christians to pray for us too. But when we pray together, we pray TO the only one who can prepare our hearts and speak into our souls through the Holy Spirit. No dead person – even though he lives in heaven – can do that.
Yes, and that is called intercession. We ask others to pray to God for those who are in need. That is what Catholics say they are doing when they ask the Church Triumphant to pray for us. For Catholics, prayers to the saints are prayers (requests) of intercession.Nope, we ask other Christians to pray for us too. But when we pray together, we pray TO the only one who can prepare our hearts and speak into our souls through the Holy Spirit. No dead person – even though he lives in heaven – can do that.
In addition, scripture tells us that those in heaven do pray for the Church Militant. My difference with Catholics is that, while the scripture is explicit that the saints pray for us, there is no evidence that they can respond to our requests that they do so. They just pray for us out of love.
Jon
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RNRobert
Guest
In that case, why do we bother asking friends, family, and fellow Christians to pray for us? If someone asks us to pray for them, we should just refuse and tell them to go ask Christ.I think what makes me uncomfortable with this is that there are many who will pray to saints to intercede, when they can go right to Christ! He is the most powerful supreme defense against any enemy that you have…so why go anywhere else?
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RNRobert
Guest
You forget we are members of Christ’s body, and we do not cease to be members when we die.Nope, we ask other Christians to pray for us too. But when we pray together, we pray TO the only one who can prepare our hearts and speak into our souls through the Holy Spirit. No dead person – even though he lives in heaven – can do that.
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neweyes
Guest
Prayer is for our own hearts. It changes us and aligns us with Him. When we seek Him together, we are unified in our desire to know His will. The dead who are sanctified in Him do not need their hearts changed to be one with the Father.In that case, why do we bother asking friends, family, and fellow Christians to pray for us? If someone asks us to pray for them, we should just refuse and tell them to go ask Christ.
It’s not Scriptural, but if they do pray for us, that is a nice thought. However I don’t want to focus there. I believe that we should not be seeking the dead to pray for us as if it strengthens our bond with Christ or gives our own prayers some sort of extra boost.
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adstrinity
Guest
Because, the more prayers we have to Him, the more effective our requests may be. The saints we ask to pray with us can do so because they can ask God (who they see all the time) perfectly (with no distractions or personal sin left in them).I think what makes me uncomfortable with this is that there are many who will pray to saints to intercede, when they can go right to Christ! He is the most powerful supreme defense against any enemy that you have…so why go anywhere else?
Please read Daniel 6:7-12.
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adstrinity
Guest
But, it is Scriptural.Prayer is for our own hearts. It changes us and aligns us with Him. When we seek Him together, we are unified in our desire to know His will. The dead who are sanctified in Him do not need their hearts changed to be one with the Father.
It’s not Scriptural, but if they do pray for us, that is a nice thought. However I don’t want to focus there. I believe that we should not be seeking the dead to pray for us as if it strengthens our bond with Christ or gives our own prayers some sort of extra boost.
I think that your definition of prayer here is limited. Not wrong, but, not complete.
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neweyes
Guest
Why do our prayers need to be more effective?Because, the more prayers we have to Him, the more effective our requests may be.
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sambos671
Guest
I’m sorry I don’t agree with that. God doesn’t answer prayers by the how many there are but according to his will. I believe Catholics pray to the Saints and Mary because they are still a part of the body of Christ and are no longer blinded and imperfect in their sin so they can pray more accordingly on our behalf with the will of God. I know Catholics believe Mary is sinless but she is still a part of the body of Christ ministering according to Gods will by her prayers.Because, the more prayers we have to Him, the more effective our requests may be. The saints we ask to pray with us can do so because they can ask God (who they see all the time) perfectly (with no distractions or personal sin left in them).
Please read Daniel 6:7-12.
C
CHESTERTONRULES
Guest
The prayers of the righteous are more effective than the prayers of the sinful. I believe the saints in heaven are now perfectly righteous.I think what makes me uncomfortable with this is that there are many who will pray to saints to intercede, when they can go right to Christ! He is the most powerful supreme defense against any enemy that you have…so why go anywhere else?
In addition, we are instructed to pray without ceasing. This is impossible without the help of intercessors.
Persistence in prayer is part of the teachings of Jesus.
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CHESTERTONRULES
Guest
Prayer is a mysterious thing. I don’t claim to understand how or why God answers prayers. However, we do have this instruction from Jesus regarding the quantity and persistence of our prayers:I’m sorry I don’t agree with that. God doesn’t answer prayers by the how many there are but according to his will. .
Luke 11
1One day Jesus was praying in a certain place. When he finished, one of his disciples said to him, “Lord, teach us to pray, just as John taught his disciples.”
Jesus gives them the Lord’s prayer, then says this:
5Then He said to them, "Suppose one of you has a friend, and goes to him at midnight and says to him, 'Friend, lend me three loaves;
6for a friend of mine has come to me from a journey, and I have nothing to set before him’;
7and from inside he answers and says, ‘Do not bother me; the door has already been shut and my children and I are in bed; I cannot get up and give you anything.’
8"I tell you, even though he will not get up and give him anything because he is his friend, yet because of his persistence he will get up and give him as much as he needs.
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neweyes
Guest
How so? Can you give me a scenario where this might be true?The prayers of the righteous are more effective than the prayers of the sinful. .
I agree.I believe the saints in heaven are now perfectly righteous.
No, we can pray without ceasing. The point is not to keep a constant barrage of prayers going by multiple people, but to draw us closer into Him.In addition, we are instructed to pray without ceasing. This is impossible without the help of intercessors.
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adstrinity
Guest
Why do our prayers need to be more effective?
I was thinking about the parable about the widow(?) and the judge who feared neither God nor man, but, the more nagging she did, eventually the judge gave in. If we have more people, especially more holy people, to pray with us, God may grant us our prayers the way we ask.I’m sorry I don’t agree with that. God doesn’t answer prayers by the how many there are but according to his will. I believe Catholics pray to the Saints and Mary because they are still a part of the body of Christ and are no longer blinded and imperfect in their sin so they can pray more accordingly on our behalf with the will of God. I know Catholics believe Mary is sinless but she is still a part of the body of Christ ministering according to Gods will by her prayers.
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sambos671
Guest
What does these verse have to do with number of prayers? I don’t think God answers prayers because of their number but according to his will. Remember Jesus told the disciples not to be like the pharasees who pray thinking that God will hear because of their numerous words. I’m not arguing against praying to the saints just how the church views the reason for doing so.Prayer is a mysterious thing. I don’t claim to understand how or why God answers prayers. However, we do have this instruction from Jesus regarding the quantity and persistence of our prayers:
Luke 11
1One day Jesus was praying in a certain place. When he finished, one of his disciples said to him, “Lord, teach us to pray, just as John taught his disciples.”
Jesus gives them the Lord’s prayer, then says this:
5Then He said to them, "Suppose one of you has a friend, and goes to him at midnight and says to him, 'Friend, lend me three loaves;
6for a friend of mine has come to me from a journey, and I have nothing to set before him’;
7and from inside he answers and says, ‘Do not bother me; the door has already been shut and my children and I are in bed; I cannot get up and give you anything.’
8"I tell you, even though he will not get up and give him anything because he is his friend, yet because of his persistence he will get up and give him as much as he needs.
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sambos671
Guest
So Mary is nagging God? I think not.I was thinking about the parable about the widow(?) and the judge who feared neither God nor man, but, the more nagging she did, eventually the judge gave in. If we have more people, especially more holy people, to pray with us, God may grant us our prayers the way we ask.
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adstrinity
Guest
No. We are. We are asking other people, whether in Heaven, Purgatory, or Earth, to assist us in our nagging.So Mary is nagging God? I think not.
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CHESTERTONRULES
Guest
Jesus is recommending persistence in prayer in this parable.What does these verse have to do with number of prayers? I don’t think God answers prayers because of their number but according to his will. Remember Jesus told the disciples not to be like the pharasees who pray thinking that God will hear because of their numerous words. I’m not arguing against praying to the saints just how the church views the reason for doing so.
Why do you suppose he did this? Can’t God hear us the first time?
I’m not saying I know the answer, but I do think he is recommending persistent, and therefore numerous, prayers.
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