I’m an ex-Catholic and I’m very familiar with the faith. I know exactly what the Church teaches on purgatory and I think I’ve proved it.
I wasn’t offering Heb. 12:5-14 as a proof text for Purgatory, per se, but as refutation of the this:
Le Goff ignores the fact that the “purgation” he claims that Origen and St. Clement derive from Hellenistic thought is described in the inspired Word.
Some Anglicans affirm the concept of Purgatory. Some more, the concept of Purgation, as an event, not necessarily a place or process. Some affirm neither. Some affirm the XXXIX Articles, which are not normative for Anglicans, save for the CoE clergy, due to the Erastian nature of the CoE. Some Anglicans cut the Articles from the BCP and use them to kindle the New Flame at Easter.
Then I missed your point. What was it?
Where???
I kind of like this story too.My apologies also. Old men like me can get polemical
Who knows…
Here is a story for you from an old Patericon (these are collected sayings of the monks of old.)
Now, don’t swoop on me…!! I know the theological
pitfalls in this story – but I still like it so much!
It resonates in my old Irish heart.
…With the Sign of the Cross, the old monk Abba
Joseph trapped in his cell a dark and miserable demon
who had come to tempt him. “Release me, Father, and let
me go,” pleaded the demon, “I will not come to tempt you
again”. “I will gladly do that, but on one condition,”
replied the monk. “You must sing for me the song that
you sang before God’s Throne on high, before your fall.”
The demon responded, “You know I cannot do that; it will
cause me cruel torture and suffering. And besides, Father,
no human ear can hear its ineffable sweetness and live,
for you will surely die.” “Then you will have to remain
here in my cell,” said the monk, “and bear with me the
full struggle of repentance.” “Let me go, do not force me
to suffer,” pleaded the demon." “Ah, but then you must
sing to me the song you sang on high before your fall
with Satan.”
So the dark and miserable demon, seeing that there was
no way out, began to sing, haltingly, barely audible
at first, groping for words long forgotten. As he sang,
the darkness which penetrated and surrounded him began
slowly to dissipate. The song grew ever louder and
increasingly stronger, and soon the demon was caught
up in its sweetness, his voice fully lifted up in worship
and praise. Boldly he sang of the power and the honour
and the glory of the Triune God on High, Creator of the
Universe, Master of Heaven and Earth, of all things visible
and invisible. As the song sung on high before all ages
resounded in the fullness of its might, a wondrous and
glorious light penetrated the venerable Abba’s humble cell,
and the walls which had enclosed it were no more. Ineffable
love and joy surged into the very depths of the being
of the radiant and glorious angel, as he ever so gently
stooped down and covered with his wings the lifeless body
of the old hermit who had liberated him from the abyss of hell.
-oOo-
At the school there is a Greek Orthodox preacher who I have talked to a few times. He told me that they pray for the saints so that they may be given the grace in order to go to Heaven. But that is not in conflict with the Catholic view of Purgatory. Purgatory is not necisarily a punishment.It is left open by the church and has not been defined that way. There have been many theologians who have though. Purgatory could be just a transition between earth and Heaven where you recieve grace from God. The reason why this is necisary is because you can not enter Heaven with sin.
Every one of them alludes to prayers for the dead or for purgatory. The fact that Paul asked for people to pray for a dead man is pretty self explanatory. Praying for those going to Hell is vain, praying for those going to Heaven is not needed.
There is no point in praying for the dead without a purgatory. It would be vain.
It does not say what happened to her because they do not know. It does not matter whether the papan believed it. The pagans beliefs are irrelevant. Thecla still prayed, that is the point. You can not change the destination of a dead mans soul. God is the judge not you or me. It does not matter if it is a dream. Look at the dreams that Joseph translated in the old testament. They all came true. That is how Joseph became so high in the kingdom.
What is this a refreshing Heavenly happiness. That has nothing to do with anything. They prayed that the dead would enter Heaven. They assume that there prayers would help in some way.
Neither did the idea of the Trinity. So why do you accept the trinity? The bible was not made till the time of Augustine, so why do you accept the bible?
Isn’t that what this passage teaches?
Why, then, is the idea attributed to pagan Greeks?
This car wreck analogy is the best I’ve ever seen!
Not at all… you are NOT confabulating something on your own… this is something that the Catholic Church has always taught!
This allegory shows how Christ works in our life. He is transforming us from natural creatures into spiritual creatures. However, many times in our lives we resist, we have attachments to sin we don’t want to give up. Therefore, when we die, we have to complete the transformation. Hence the concept of Purgatory.
There goes the magic word again, “allude.” No, everyone points to something else when taken in the context of the passage or within the careful exegesis of Scripture. For instance, Mt. 12:32-33 is said to allude to forgiveness in the “world to come” but in its parallel verse in Mk. 3:28-29 states, “…shall never have forgiveness” (MKJV) or “will never have forgiveness, but is guilty of an everlasting sin (NAB)." The logical interpretation of this verse is that the passage in Matthew is employing an idiom to convey the same message as in Mark. 1 Peter 3:19 supposedly “alludes” to purgatory because of the term “spirits in prison”, but the subsequent verse tells us that these “spirits” are the antediluvians and never alludes to a purgatorial nature within this “prison.”
You’re not interacting with the argument I put up and I suggest you read it again. The passage blatantly states “the resurrection” and not a purgatorial state. The most one can get out of the passage is that “Judas” thought it was a “good and holy thought” to do this, disregarding the fact that his men died in mortal sin (again, using the Catholic vernacular). One other thing that can be brought forth from the passage is that Judas “prayed for the dead” and as Le Goff stated, this alludes to a practice not spoken about in other Scripture. Sorry, but you’re argument—which is the standard Catholic understanding of the passage—just doesn’t hold water.
That’s your assumption, because *you * believe in a purgatory. One would, first and foremost, have to believe in a purgatory to find any purgatorial “allusions” in this passage. Also, as already mentioned, all it proves is that “Judas” prayed for these dead to be raised in the resurrection. Again, there’s nothing purgatorial about this. No one denies that some within the early church prayed for the dead, but it seems this did more for those praying than those being prayed for. If you had an understanding of “refrigerium” and what it entailed than you would understand that the nature of the prayers was anything but purgatorial.
continued…
This is your assumption. Show me where these prayers ask for the dead to enter heaven. Don’t give me “allusions”, nor “implications”, but where the prayers are petitioning God to take the soul from afterlife purification and allow entrance into heaven.
I already answered this in another post: The Trinity is a logical extension of Scripture, considering the passages which show a plurality (Gen.1:26; Mt.3:16; 17:5, etc.). And then there is the witness of other Scriptures showing a plurality as well, such as the verses where Christ prayed to His Father (Christ wasn’t praying to Himself). No, you know it and I know it, the Trinity enjoys this clarity, regardless of who argues against it. An alleged “purgatory” doesn’t come close and relies on assumptions and implications.
I originally quoted:
If you mean this one:
Answer: God isn’t bound by our human standards. Although we, as human beings, see sin in “degrees” and judge accordingly, God sees sin as sin and isn’t bound by mere human reasoning. Compare Adam and Eve’s “disobedience” which brought sin into the world (Gen.3); compare the parallels between “rebellion” with “witchcraft” and “stubbornness” with “idol worship” (1 Sam.15:33), and Christ’s own words putting the act of looking lustfully at a woman as having actually committed the act (Mt.5:28). In each of these comparisons the former isn’t as “bad” a sin as the latter by our reasoning, but that doesn’t change the way God views it. Considering the gravity of all sins and our inability to control this nature, this puts everything squarely on our faith in Christ. There is nothing we can truly control and no way to put faith in our own abilities. Paul recognized this dilemma within himself and expounds on it in the latter part of Romans 7. As to the comparison of telling a person a lie to spare feelings doesn’t change the fact that the person “lied” and “liars” are amongst those who’ll take their part in the Lake of Fire (Rev.21:8). The fall of man is based on a lie (Gen.3) and a lie opened the door for sin to come into this world (Gen.3:4-5). Although it may be brutal at times, honesty is still the best policy, and not hurting ones feelings at the risk of sinning is simply not worth it. Overall, finding a basis for purgatory on another false premise (major and minor sins) is just another example of eisegesis at its purest.
No, I meant the one by JimG. See my post #329 here:
