Why do Catholics believe in Purgatory and Protestants do not?

[Calvin]

JimG:

… then I do not see how it is incompatible with the Catholic concept of purgatory. Since after death, there is no time as such, we have no way of defining any “duration” for purgatory, whether it is completed in an “instant” or some unknowable period.

I think what most Protestants (and Orthodox) dispute is the idea of Purgatory as a place like Heaven or Hell. The idea of purgatory (lower case) as a time of purification is accepted by most Orthodox and some Protestants.

-C

 

[hlgomez]

Mango,

He paid for his sins through crucifixion? Sorry…but no. If that were true we could all just get crucified before we die…not rely on Jesus at all. If there are other means of salvation than Jesus’s blood, then He died for nothing.

~mango~

You are outrightly misenterpreting the Catholic’s belief on purgatory. When one goes thru purification in purgatory, it doesn’t mean that the person is condemned to hell for eternity. Nope, all souls in purgatory ARE SAVED, only that they go thru purification so they can enter heaven withour blemish to their souls. Jesus sacrifice wasn’t mean for nothing just because purgatory exists, it’s exactly the opposite to what you believe.

If that were true we could all just get crucified before we die…not rely on Jesus at all.

Whether a person goes to purgatory, heaven or hell, the truth of the matter is—everybody has to pay for their sins–whether temporal punishment or eternal. Jesus paid for our sins–true–but that doesn’t mean that when a man sins and asks for forgiveness and is forgiven that the temporal punishment due to sin is forgotten. His sins are forgiven but the punishment due to sin should be paid for. It only demonstrates that God is a God of justice.

Pio

 

[Katholikos]

The important thing to understand is that the New Testament is based upon the teaching Church that Christ founded, not vice versa. The Church was teaching before, while, and after the period in which the NT was being produced, and she is still teaching today. Her teachings are referred to in the NT either directly (by statement) or indirectly (by inference).

Because the NT is not a textbook in Christianity, we should not expect doctrines and practices to always be clearly laid out. Catholics were writing to Catholics who had already been instructed orally in the Faith. *The NT writings are supplemental and supportive of the doctrines these early Christians had already been taught and believed. *

Many things are not clear in the NT – for example, exactly how Baptism was to be administered and at what age, and how often and at what age Holy Communion was to be received. These are just two examples of questions that had to be worked out by the early Church, based on the teaching of the Apostles, with the Holy Spirit as her guide. The first council, the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15) was held to consider a question Jesus had not answered – did the Jewish law of circumcision apply to pagan converts to Christianity, as the Judaisers claimed? IOW, did one first have to become a Jew and then a Christian?

To be continued

 

[Katholikos]

Part 2 of 2

“All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation, but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned” (Catechism of the Catholic Church 1030-1).

1 Corinthians 3:10-15 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and another man is building upon it. Let each man take care how he builds upon it. For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw – each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day * will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.*

As a Protestant, I skipped over this part of 1 Corinthians because I didn’t understand it. No one I knew understood it, including my pastor.

But now I see that if I had been one of the Corinithians who had been taught the doctrine of Purgatory orally by St. Paul, and if St. Paul had later written a letter to me containing this strange and obtuse language, I would have immediately known that he was referring to Purgatory. The language is not strange and obtuse at all!

The NT was written by believers to believers. Again, it confirmed what they had already been taught orally. St. Paul wasn’t telling his converts anything they didn’t already know – he was reminding them of what he had taught them in person.

“…but nothing unclean shall enter it [heaven]” Rev 21:27.

Am I unclean? You betcha!

I once was blind but now I see.

I believe EVERYTHING the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church teaches!

Praise and exalt Him forever.

JMJ Jay

 

[SwissGuard]

Katholikos:

I believe EVERYTHING the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church teaches! Praise and exalt Him forever. JMJ Jay

Now there’s something we all need to hear more often! Well said.

On topic, I just thought I’d share that I do happen to know a few Protestants who came to believe in Purgatory once they understood what it really was. It seems that most Protestants disagree with Purgatory because they don’t understand its purpose, where it came from, etc. :twocents:

 

[Little_Mary]

SwissGuard:

Now there’s something we all need to hear more often! Well said.

On topic, I just thought I’d share that I do happen to know a few Protestants who came to believe in Purgatory once they understood what it really was. It seems that most Protestants disagree with Purgatory because they don’t understand its purpose, where it came from, etc. :twocents:

protestants do not believe in a lot of things taught by the Catholic church because they don’t understand it…furthermore, it’s yet another one of those unpleasant things that they’d rather not think about. Protestants would rather focus on the Resurrection and the happy party (the “feel good” religions) and not what you have to go through to get there.

 

[GKC]

Katholikos:

It’s in his book, Letters to Malcolm, Chiefly on Prayer.

Here’s a review (available at Amazon):

**Letters to Malcolm: Chiefly on Prayer > Customer Review #3: **
http://g-images.amazon.com/images/G/01/detail/stars-4-0.gif Personal, Insightful, Helpful

C. S. Lewiss twenty-two letters (to a fictitious friend, Malcolm)unveil his own personal questions and answers, failures and successes, struggles and perseverance with prayer. The letters are warm and insightful, and usually very, very helpful, covering a wide range of subjects related to prayer, including: corporate prayer and worship, “ready-made” prayers, the Lords Prayer, petitionary prayer, “those embarrassing promises,” pleasure (“patches of God-light”), determinism, soliloquy, intercession, purgatory (which Lewis believed in), praying for the dead (which Lewis practiced), and more.

(emphasis added)

Also, It’s one of the primary themes of THE GREAT DIVORCE. Lewis, though he never became a very High-Church man, moved steadily toward the Anglo-Catholic side of the Anglican spectrum. In LETTERS, he nuanced the concept of Purgation, in a Anglican mode. But he certainly accepted the idea. It’s very common among Anglicans to do so.

GKC

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Are not our sins forgiven by the blood of Jesus Christ. Are not our sins washed as white as snow. As christians are our sins brought up again when we come before Christ on judgement day? I dont think so. What you are saying is the Christ sacrifice was not enough.There will be no sin entering into the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Little_Mary]

SPOKENWORD:

Are not our sins forgiven by the blood of Jesus Christ. Are not our sins washed as white as snow. As christians are our sins brought up again when we come before Christ on judgement day? I dont think so. What you are saying is the Christ sacrifice was not enough.There will be no sin entering into the kingdom of heaven.

Spokenword

I think you’ve finally said something I agree with…there will be no sin entering into the kingdom of heaven…

Yes, yes, you’re right because all who’ve been through purgatory will be without sin!!

You’re getting it! Keep it up!:dancing:

However, don’t put words in (my) mouth, nobody said Christ’s sacrifice was not enough. His sacrifice makes our salvation possible. It’s our own imperfection and poor choices that mess it up. We must make amends for that.

 

[GKC]

Little Mary:

SPOKENWORD:

Are not our sins forgiven by the blood of Jesus Christ. Are not our sins washed as white as snow. As christians are our sins brought up again when we come before Christ on judgement day? I dont think so. What you are saying is the Christ sacrifice was not enough.There will be no sin entering into the kingdom of heaven.

Spokenword

I think you’ve finally said something I agree with…there will be no sin entering into the kingdom of heaven…

Yes, yes, you’re right because all who’ve been through purgatory will be without sin!!

You’re getting it! Keep it up!:dancing:

However, don’t put words in (my) mouth, nobody said Christ’s sacrifice was not enough. His sacrifice makes our salvation possible. It’s our own imperfection and poor choices that mess it up. We must make amends for that.

Well said, Little Mary.

GKC

Anglicanus Catholicus

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Little Mary:

SPOKENWORD:

Are not our sins forgiven by the blood of Jesus Christ. Are not our sins washed as white as snow. As christians are our sins brought up again when we come before Christ on judgement day? I dont think so. What you are saying is the Christ sacrifice was not enough.There will be no sin entering into the kingdom of heaven.

Spokenword

I think you’ve finally said something I agree with…there will be no sin entering into the kingdom of heaven…

Yes, yes, you’re right because all who’ve been through purgatory will be without sin!!

You’re getting it! Keep it up!:dancing:

However, don’t put words in (my) mouth, nobody said Christ’s sacrifice was not enough. His sacrifice makes our salvation possible. It’s our own imperfection and poor choices that mess it up. We must make amends for that. You mean this is the first thing we agree on. Well praise God that is progress.

 

[JimG]

Calvin:

I think what most Protestants (and Orthodox) dispute is the idea of Purgatory as a place like Heaven or Hell. The idea of purgatory (lower case) as a time of purification is accepted by most Orthodox and some Protestants.
-C

Hmmm. I’m Catholic and I don’t see Purgatory as a place either, but as a state of being. After death our bodies are in the grave, and our souls don’t need space or place. So while we may refer to purgatory as a “place of purification,” it is really a state of being. And since we no longer exist in “time” after death, I don’t really see it as a state in which time intervals elapse, either.

SPOKENWORD:

Are not our sins forgiven by the blood of Jesus Christ. Are not our sins washed as white as snow. As christians are our sins brought up again when we come before Christ on judgement day? I dont think so. What you are saying is the Christ sacrifice was not enough.There will be no sin entering into the kingdom of heaven.

Yes, our sins are forgiven. This includes the sins of anyone in Purgatory. They are not there for the forgiveness of sins. Those sins are gone! Washed away, as you said. They are there not for forgiveness, but for purification.

Let me give a metaphor. When you join the Marines, you become a member of the USMC the minute you raise your hand and swear your loyalty. Do you feel like a Marine? Not yet. Do walk like a Marine, act like a Marine, talk like a Marine? Not yet. After 3 months of boot camp, THEN you feel like a Marine! You’re ready to wear the uniform with pride. You’re not an imposter.

Now, purgatory is not exactly boot camp. You may get more than enough of basic training right here in this life. Then again you may not. But suppose you spend your entire life immersed in the most vile sins imaginable. You’ve thoroughly damaged your psyche, your very person. In what turns out to be the last week of your life, you repent, turn to the Lord, and ask for forgiveness. And you are forgiven. Those sins are gone! But you’ve still made a mess of every aspect of your psyche; there are people you’ve cheated and hurt who will never get justice in this life. Can you ever make it up to them? Not in the week you’ve got left. At the instant of your death, will you feel regret at all these past actions, will those memories bring you pain? Probably so, and then you will have begun your purgatory.

JimG

 

[mango_2003]

hlgomez:

Mango,

You are outrightly misenterpreting the Catholic’s belief on purgatory. When one goes thru purification in purgatory, it doesn’t mean that the person is condemned to hell for eternity. Nope, all souls in purgatory ARE SAVED, only that they go thru purification so they can enter heaven withour blemish to their souls. Jesus sacrifice wasn’t mean for nothing just because purgatory exists, it’s exactly the opposite to what you believe.

No, no I’m not. I never said that they are SAVED in purgatory. I used the same wording you did. “He paid for his sins through the crucifixion”. I still stand by what I said earlier. If it is true that he **paid for his sins through the crucifixion, **then what’s the point of Jesus’s death?

~mango~

 

[Becky]

Katholikos:

It’s in his book, Letters to Malcolm, Chiefly on Prayer.

Here’s a review (available at Amazon):

**Letters to Malcolm: Chiefly on Prayer > Customer Review #3: **
http://g-images.amazon.com/images/G/01/detail/stars-4-0.gif Personal, Insightful, Helpful

C. S. Lewiss twenty-two letters (to a fictitious friend, Malcolm)unveil his own personal questions and answers, failures and successes, struggles and perseverance with prayer. The letters are warm and insightful, and usually very, very helpful, covering a wide range of subjects related to prayer, including: corporate prayer and worship, “ready-made” prayers, the Lords Prayer, petitionary prayer, “those embarrassing promises,” pleasure (“patches of God-light”), determinism, soliloquy, intercession, purgatory (which Lewis believed in), praying for the dead (which Lewis practiced), and more.

(emphasis added)

I was hoping for a direct source, not a customer review from Amazon. Thanks

 

[GKC]

Becky:

I was hoping for a direct source, not a customer review from Amazon. Thanks

Becky,

See my post above. Or, see LETTERS TO MALCOM, chapter XX, pp.108-109, 1st American ed. Also, see THE GREAT DIVORCE, chapter IX, 1st American ed., pp. 63-66. When THE GREAT DIVORCE first came out, many reviewers assumed Lewis was RC, from the treatment of Purgatory, which irritiated Lewis at the time.

And he makes a comment on the topic in ENGLISH LITERATURE IN THE SIXTEENTH CENTURY, pp. 163-164.

GKC

 

[Veronica_Anne]

JimG:

ICatholics see sin as having damaged our soul, even though we are forgiven. Like a car that’s been in a wreck, it’s alignment is never quite right afterwards. We’ve been forgiven for the wreck, but we still need to get the dents out and the alignment fixed.

JimG

Love that analogy about the car’s dents!!



I use the muddy feet about to walk on a perfectly white, pristine carpet analogy. The person, at the time of their own particular judgement the moment after they die, will then know for sure they’re going to be “let into” Heaven because Jesus has just told them (themselves) particularly so.

Like anybody seeing that perfectly white carpet, the last thing they want to do is muddy it up by walking on it with their muddy feet. They’ll want to clean off their feet…

and being able to see that scrumptious white carpet just beyond the threshold of that wide open door that Jesus had opened for them at His crucifixion… THAT is the pain of purgatory… not being there JUST YET… and the mercy of purgatory because God, well, God in His mercy has provided that spot of purgation (cleansing).

This analogy works for me… still… I love your analogy, too!

Can I use it sometime?

 

[SPOKENWORD]

The belief of purgurtory is just that {A BELIEF]. It is pure speculation, for no one has come back to this earth and revealed this process. I do know this, that my sins are forgiven. They haved been washed as white as snow. Jesus does not look back at our sins. The cross and his precious blood have taken care of them. We can discuss this all day long,but the bottom line is ,we as christians will enter into the kingdom of heaven. Maybe some of us will come quicker. God Bless

 

[Veronica_Anne]

Catholics were writing to Catholics who had already been instructed orally in the Faith. The NT writings are supplemental and supportive of the doctrines these early Christians had already been taught and believed.

Yes… actually, it was Christians speaking and writing to Christians and non-Christians.

Not Catholics to Catholics, per se.

It was some Christians in the 1500’s who decided to take out the books in the already canonized Hebrew Scriptures (what some folks call the “Old Testament”) that talked about things that they did not agree with, even though the Christian church had canonized those books as well hundreds and hundreds of years earlier.

One of those books was Maccabees, which talked about praying for folks after they had died.

We Christians all have our spiritual roots in Judaism. There’s no need to toss out the entire revelation of God from before Christ was born. HE sure didn’t!!

Sigh.

 

[Veronica_Anne]

Becky:

I was hoping for a direct source, not a customer review from Amazon. Thanks

Um… I humbly offer to you that this WAS a “direct source”… the title of the book and the place to look up more about it.

The customer review gave a pretty good description of the contents.

:clapping:

 

[Shibboleth]

This is one of the things that I give the “I wish I knew but I do not…” statement. I do not think that my salvation depends on my belief in Purgatory, so I try not to spend too much time on the issue.

People talked about the thief on the cross and his physical pain that he endured. I do not think that Purgatory will be a physical pain. For one thing we do not have a body. Also it seems that physical pain in itself should not be enough to wash away sins, one must be in repentance of those sins. And if the thief was in repentance, I think that Jesus could have washed away any imperfections that he may have had right then and there without the holes in the thief’s wrists and ankles.

If Purgatory exists the pain most likely will be from the separation that one knows exists between them and heaven. I heard someone on Relevant Radio describe it similar to when you take a long trip and you are in the last 10 miles of the trip before you get home. Your anticipation and want to get home is almost unbearable not because you are in any real pain but because of the reward at the end of the road.

So do Catholic’s believe that praying for someone that is dead will cleanse his or her soul faster?