S
Serafin
Guest
Oh really…
Catholic Encyclopedia Online
Then???Blessings
Serafin
- Status
Catholic Encyclopedia Online
Then???Blessings
Serafin
1
1962Missal
Guest
Jimmy, the Catholic is bound to believe, not with the infallible certainty of faith, but certainly with religious assent, more than just dogma.
Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma.
G
GoodME
Guest
I could clearly see that a calvinist protestant would not accept purgatory, as they believe that they are heaven-bound regardless of any earthly or any other activity, because they are of the elect. I believe that this camp is most likely to subscribe to the “snowy field” anaolgy of justification (a pasture would appear filthy from the air, unless it had just snowed), which says that God “covers” there sin, not cleanses it, from their soul.
I would be interested to hear what a protestant of the armenian camp thinks.
There is clear Scriptural reference to the fact that there is a place and a need for souls to be “cleaned” before entering heaven, if they were not perfectly so at the time of death.
Don’t let me put words in anyone’s mouth.
I would be interested to hear what a protestant of the armenian camp thinks.
There is clear Scriptural reference to the fact that there is a place and a need for souls to be “cleaned” before entering heaven, if they were not perfectly so at the time of death.
Don’t let me put words in anyone’s mouth.
S
Serafin
Guest
Hi There:
**
**
How do forgive and punish go together? The way some of these documents make God seem is very unnapealing…The legalistic dude with a notepad writing down every bad …thought , word and deed, what I have done and left undone…so we satisfaction can be made with punishment ! Give me a break!!! I think I like Johns version better…where it is the blood of Jesus that cleanses us from all unrighteousness!
If extreme unction and confession and absolution and the Eucharist all have the power you profess…why do people need to go elsewhere to be purified and punished…if already forgiven, cleansed, sanctified by Christ through the sacraments? It makes no sense at all.
It really should take just one mass to take somebody out of Purgatory…if truly it is as you say…the sacrifice of Christ made present!
Blessings
Serafin
**
De novissimis] It has likewise defined, that, if those truly penitent have departed in the love of God, before they have made satisfaction by worthy fruits of penance for sins of commission and omission, the souls of these are cleansed after death by purgatorial punishments**;**
**
How do forgive and punish go together? The way some of these documents make God seem is very unnapealing…The legalistic dude with a notepad writing down every bad …thought , word and deed, what I have done and left undone…so we satisfaction can be made with punishment ! Give me a break!!! I think I like Johns version better…where it is the blood of Jesus that cleanses us from all unrighteousness!
You know for people who believe in the power of the sacraments…the concepts of purgatory is almost ludicrous…it practically denies their efficacy.
If extreme unction and confession and absolution and the Eucharist all have the power you profess…why do people need to go elsewhere to be purified and punished…if already forgiven, cleansed, sanctified by Christ through the sacraments? It makes no sense at all.
It really should take just one mass to take somebody out of Purgatory…if truly it is as you say…the sacrifice of Christ made present!
Blessings
Serafin
K
Katholikos
Guest
Contarini wrote:
If there is a time when Luther believed we would be purified, cleansed, or whatever term may be applicable, before our entrance into heaven, I’m not aware of it. I’ve always understood his teaching to be that one’s soul would pass into heaven “like a dunghill covered with snow” but that God “saw” only the righteousness of Christ that overlaid our sins and therefore He would let us in. This “covering” or “layer of snow = rightousness” was aquired by “accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.” That’s one of the reasons for denying baptismal regeneration, isn’t it? Because we are saved by faith alone? Of course, there are very few “one doctrine fits all” beliefs among Protestants. But if Luther taught something else, would you post it or tell me where it can be found (if you know)?
Thanks, Jay
Edwin, I have seen this quote in many articles and books, but as yet I have not been able to find a source for it either. If you locate one, please let me know. But it is, at the very least, a concise synopsis of Luther’s teaching and in keeping with his oft-expressed coarse language. Or, he may have said it, and it passed into oral history.
If there is a time when Luther believed we would be purified, cleansed, or whatever term may be applicable, before our entrance into heaven, I’m not aware of it. I’ve always understood his teaching to be that one’s soul would pass into heaven “like a dunghill covered with snow” but that God “saw” only the righteousness of Christ that overlaid our sins and therefore He would let us in. This “covering” or “layer of snow = rightousness” was aquired by “accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.” That’s one of the reasons for denying baptismal regeneration, isn’t it? Because we are saved by faith alone? Of course, there are very few “one doctrine fits all” beliefs among Protestants. But if Luther taught something else, would you post it or tell me where it can be found (if you know)?
Thanks, Jay
K
Katholikos
Guest
Another reason for Luther’s rejection of Purgatory (and Maccabees) was his belief in “Once Saved, Always Saved.” Many denominations of Protestants (but certainly not all) have adoped Luther’s (and Calvin’s) belief. Calvin gave it his own twist and called it Perseverance of the Saints - the predestined elect can’t lose their salvation.
If sins committed before one becomes a Christian are forgiven when one “accepts Jesus Christ as personal Lord and Savior,” and sins after this event don’t matter at all – they will not deprive one of heaven – then who needs Purgatory?
In Luther’s own words: No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day." (Letter to Melanchthon, 1 August 1521, full text at iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/letsinsbe.txt
JMJ Jay
If sins committed before one becomes a Christian are forgiven when one “accepts Jesus Christ as personal Lord and Savior,” and sins after this event don’t matter at all – they will not deprive one of heaven – then who needs Purgatory?
In Luther’s own words: No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day." (Letter to Melanchthon, 1 August 1521, full text at iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/letsinsbe.txt
JMJ Jay
1
1962Missal
Guest
If a child comes to his father and confesses having broken the father’s rules, the loving father will forgive, but that does not mean that the child is going to go unpunished. In fact, punishment is a proper and often necessary means to correct the child.
The concept is quite biblical:
Punishment, or discipline, yields the fruit of righteousness; it enables us to share in the holiness of God.
Justin
R
RedGolum
Guest
Again, not quite correct. A person can reject God, and there by loose thier salvation. The context of you quote was that someone had asked if you die in a sin, what happens? Does Jesus’s forgiveness cover you if you die say, committing adultry, which you have done before and confessed. Luther is saying if you have a pattern of sin, but fight it, even if you lose at times you can still get to heaven.
Someone asked me before about two people on the street who are killed. One tells a little lie to get off her phone, the other is out and about with the intent to murder someone. The question asked (forgive me but I can’t remember the poster!) is who got to heaven. My answer is that only God can judge. What is the Catholic answer? If you die while commiting a sin, no matter how serious or minor, what will happen?
K
Katholikos
Guest
Since the 16th century, the Catholic has used the terminology protocanonical (first canon) and deuterocanonical (second canon). However, all the writings in the Catholic Bible were canonized at the very same time, by the very same councils, and no distinction was made between any of the writings. Judith and the Maccabees are just as “inspired” as Matthew and Isaiah. This is only a distinction of interest to scholars, because it identifies those writings about which there was controversy in early Christian history.
Proto - combining form meaning first (Greek)
Deutero - combining form meaning second or later (Greek)
**OT - **DEUTEROCANONICAL WRITINGS: Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus (aka Sirach), Baruch, I and II Maccabees, parts of Esther (10:4-16, 14) and Daniel (3:24-90, 13, 14).
NT - DEUTEROCANONICAL WRITINGS: Hebrews, James, II Peter, II and III John Revelation, ad Mark 16:9-20.
All of these writings are recognized by the Catholic Church. Before the 16th century, there was no need for this distinction or terminology because the canon had not seriously been called into question since it was settled in 382, 393, 397, and 405. Luther and the Deformation (editorial comment
) made the distinction necessary.Peace be to all who post at Catholic Answers. JMJ Jay
R
RedGolum
Guest
One question Katholikos.
If the OT Canon was universially accepted as the RCC currently teaches, why do some of the Eastern Orthodox have a different list of the OT books than either the RCC or the Protestant churches
If the OT Canon was universially accepted as the RCC currently teaches, why do some of the Eastern Orthodox have a different list of the OT books than either the RCC or the Protestant churches
J
jimmy
Guest
Serafin
It does not matter what is appealling to any individual person. It does not make it any less true. In other words the truth will always be the truth no maatter what you want to believe. God is infinitely greater than men and women and you can not change who he is.
If that is what the catholic church teaches then I believe it. If I post something contrary to the church’ teachings then I apologize and the churchs teachings are more correct than what I say. But wheather it is a temporal punishment or not is irrelivent to the fact of wheather it exists.
The idea of purgatory is an act of mercy by God. You may ask how is that? The answer is that if there is no purgatory then everyone who dies with sin on there soul would go straight to hell. Not that it gives you a second chance but if it does not exist then all with sin, no matter what sin you commit, goes to hell. If you go to Hell it is an eternal punishment. If purgatory is a temporal punishment, then it is only temporary. Everyone who goes to Purgatory is destined for Heaven.
There are many illusions to Purgatory in the bible.
**2 Samuel 12:13-16
**David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.” And Nathan said to David, “The LORD also has put away your sin; you shall not die. Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the LORD, the child that is born to you shall die.” Then Nathan went to his house. And the LORD struck the child that Uri’ah’s wife bore to David, and it became sick. David therefore besought God for the child; and David fasted, and went in and lay all night upon the ground. [Note that God has “put away” David’s sins, but David still fasts. This is the same as in Numbers, when Moses was still excluded from the Promised Land even after he was forgiven for his sin of striking the rock twice with his rod.]
**2 Maccabees 12:43-46 **
He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the resurrection. For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.
Wisdom 3:1-7
But the souls of the just are in God’s hand; no torment will touch them. in the eyes of the foolish they seemed to be dead; their departure was reckoned as defeat, and their going from us a disaster. But they are at peace, for though in the sight of men they may suffer punishment, they have a sure hope of immortality, and after a little chastisement they will receive great blessings, because God has tested them and found them worthy to be His. He put them to the proof like gold in a crucible, and found them acceptable like an offering burnt whole on the altar. In the hour of their judgement they will shine in glory and will sweep over the world like sparks through stubble.
It does not matter what is appealling to any individual person. It does not make it any less true. In other words the truth will always be the truth no maatter what you want to believe. God is infinitely greater than men and women and you can not change who he is.
If that is what the catholic church teaches then I believe it. If I post something contrary to the church’ teachings then I apologize and the churchs teachings are more correct than what I say. But wheather it is a temporal punishment or not is irrelivent to the fact of wheather it exists.
The idea of purgatory is an act of mercy by God. You may ask how is that? The answer is that if there is no purgatory then everyone who dies with sin on there soul would go straight to hell. Not that it gives you a second chance but if it does not exist then all with sin, no matter what sin you commit, goes to hell. If you go to Hell it is an eternal punishment. If purgatory is a temporal punishment, then it is only temporary. Everyone who goes to Purgatory is destined for Heaven.
There are many illusions to Purgatory in the bible.
**2 Samuel 12:13-16
**David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.” And Nathan said to David, “The LORD also has put away your sin; you shall not die. Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the LORD, the child that is born to you shall die.” Then Nathan went to his house. And the LORD struck the child that Uri’ah’s wife bore to David, and it became sick. David therefore besought God for the child; and David fasted, and went in and lay all night upon the ground. [Note that God has “put away” David’s sins, but David still fasts. This is the same as in Numbers, when Moses was still excluded from the Promised Land even after he was forgiven for his sin of striking the rock twice with his rod.]
**2 Maccabees 12:43-46 **
He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the resurrection. For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.
Wisdom 3:1-7
But the souls of the just are in God’s hand; no torment will touch them. in the eyes of the foolish they seemed to be dead; their departure was reckoned as defeat, and their going from us a disaster. But they are at peace, for though in the sight of men they may suffer punishment, they have a sure hope of immortality, and after a little chastisement they will receive great blessings, because God has tested them and found them worthy to be His. He put them to the proof like gold in a crucible, and found them acceptable like an offering burnt whole on the altar. In the hour of their judgement they will shine in glory and will sweep over the world like sparks through stubble.
J
jimmy
Guest
**Isaiah 66:15-16
**For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.
Daniel 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Daniel 12:10
Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
Zechariah 13:9
I will lead that third into the fire, and refine them as silver is refined, test them as gold is tested. They will call on my name and I shall listen; and I shall say: These are my people; and each will say, “Yahweh is my God!”
**For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.
Daniel 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Daniel 12:10
Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
Zechariah 13:9
I will lead that third into the fire, and refine them as silver is refined, test them as gold is tested. They will call on my name and I shall listen; and I shall say: These are my people; and each will say, “Yahweh is my God!”
J
jimmy
Guest
There are many moer allusions to Purgatory in the bible but I must move on.
The fact that the Jews believe in Purgatory, or as they call it Sheol, should be a proof to you that it exists.
Yes, I do know the Orthodox belief of Purgatory. They agree that it exists, but they disagree with some of the details. Here is a link to an answer by an eastern Catholic about the Orthodox belief in Purgatory.
ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage.asp?Pgnu=2&Pg=Forum25&recnu=31&number=402853
The eary church fathers also agreed on this issue. Notice that there is a quote byy St. John Chrysostom, who was Eastern and is was a doctor of the eastern church.
**From St. John Chrysostom in his Homilies on 1 Corinthians 41:5, A.D. 392: Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.
**
St. Gregory the Great commenting on St. Matthew’s gospel (12:32) states that “In this sentence it is given to understand that many sins can be remitted in this world, but also many in the world to come” - Dial. IV 39 (See Also St. Augustine, De Civ. Dei. XXXXXI 24, 2.).
St. Cyprian speaking of purgatory states that “To be tormented in long pains and to be cleansed and purified from one’s sins by continuous fire, is a different thing from expiating one’s sins all at by suffering (of martyrdom)” - Ep. 55, 20
**St. Augustine : **
“Some suffer temporal punishments only in this life, others only after death, still others both in life and after death, but always before this most strict and most final court” - De Civ. Dei XXI 13
Origen
“For if on the foundation of Christ you have built not only gold and silver and precious stones(1 Cor.,3);but also wood and hay and stubble, what do you expect when the soul shall be separated from the body? Would you enter into heaven with your wood and hay and stubble and thus defile the kingdom of God; or on account of these hindrances would you remain without and receive no reward for your gold and silver and precious stones; Neither is this just. It remains then that you be committed to the fire which will burn the light materials; for our God to those who can comprehend heavenly things is called a cleansing fire. But this fire consumes not the creature, but what the creature has himself built, wood, and hay and stubble. It is manifest that the fire destroys the wood of our transgressions and then returns to us the reward of our great works.” - Homilies on Jeremias, PG 13:445,448(A.D. 244),in CE,577
The fact that the Jews believe in Purgatory, or as they call it Sheol, should be a proof to you that it exists.
Yes, I do know the Orthodox belief of Purgatory. They agree that it exists, but they disagree with some of the details. Here is a link to an answer by an eastern Catholic about the Orthodox belief in Purgatory.
ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage.asp?Pgnu=2&Pg=Forum25&recnu=31&number=402853
The eary church fathers also agreed on this issue. Notice that there is a quote byy St. John Chrysostom, who was Eastern and is was a doctor of the eastern church.
**From St. John Chrysostom in his Homilies on 1 Corinthians 41:5, A.D. 392: Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.
**
St. Gregory the Great commenting on St. Matthew’s gospel (12:32) states that “In this sentence it is given to understand that many sins can be remitted in this world, but also many in the world to come” - Dial. IV 39 (See Also St. Augustine, De Civ. Dei. XXXXXI 24, 2.).
St. Cyprian speaking of purgatory states that “To be tormented in long pains and to be cleansed and purified from one’s sins by continuous fire, is a different thing from expiating one’s sins all at by suffering (of martyrdom)” - Ep. 55, 20
**St. Augustine : **
“Some suffer temporal punishments only in this life, others only after death, still others both in life and after death, but always before this most strict and most final court” - De Civ. Dei XXI 13
Origen
“For if on the foundation of Christ you have built not only gold and silver and precious stones(1 Cor.,3);but also wood and hay and stubble, what do you expect when the soul shall be separated from the body? Would you enter into heaven with your wood and hay and stubble and thus defile the kingdom of God; or on account of these hindrances would you remain without and receive no reward for your gold and silver and precious stones; Neither is this just. It remains then that you be committed to the fire which will burn the light materials; for our God to those who can comprehend heavenly things is called a cleansing fire. But this fire consumes not the creature, but what the creature has himself built, wood, and hay and stubble. It is manifest that the fire destroys the wood of our transgressions and then returns to us the reward of our great works.” - Homilies on Jeremias, PG 13:445,448(A.D. 244),in CE,577
J
jimmy
Guest
J
jimmy
Guest
1962Missal
In one of my last posts I put a little disclaimer in about myself contradicting the churches teachings. After thinking about it I have to say that I have not contradicted the church in any way. I may have contradicted some theologians but I have not contradicted the church.
Can you give me any instances where this is true? Where you must beleive something that is not a dogma.
What is the point of elevating it to a dogma then if you already have to believe it?
In one of my last posts I put a little disclaimer in about myself contradicting the churches teachings. After thinking about it I have to say that I have not contradicted the church in any way. I may have contradicted some theologians but I have not contradicted the church.
Can you give me any instances where this is true? Where you must beleive something that is not a dogma.
What is the point of elevating it to a dogma then if you already have to believe it?
P
pacersFan
Guest
That was the case with people around me growing up. I was told that Catholics were wrong because they believed you could do just about anything you wanted and you could go to Purgatory, this magical land somewhere between Heaven and Hell.
Obviously, they were uninformed about the teachings of the Catholic Church. They heard rumors and accepted them as fact without doing any research. A short conversation with a priest before I married my wife (who was raised Catholic) cleared up the entire matter of purgatory for me, and actually made more sense than what I had been taught.
C
Curious
Guest
someone earlier…i think Pro Lesu said that Paul spoke of praying for his dead friend in one of his epistles…care to give a reference on that? I’d love to read it…
J
jimmy
Guest
I**. A State After Death of Suffering and Forgiveness**
Matt. 5:25,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 - these verses allude to a temporary state of purgation called a “prison.” There is no exit until we are perfect, and the last penny is paid.
Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, “be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect.” We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a state we call purgatory.
Matt. 12:32 - Jesus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.
Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will will no longer live with the Master.
Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God’s graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.
1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, to atone for their sins. These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory.
Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and “under the earth” which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.
2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him. But there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.
Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed, in the state of purgatory.
Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are “made” perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits were in purgatory.
1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the “prison.” These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.
To Be Continued
Matt. 5:25,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 - these verses allude to a temporary state of purgation called a “prison.” There is no exit until we are perfect, and the last penny is paid.
Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, “be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect.” We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a state we call purgatory.
Matt. 12:32 - Jesus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.
Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will will no longer live with the Master.
Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God’s graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.
1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, to atone for their sins. These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory.
Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and “under the earth” which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.
2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him. But there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.
Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed, in the state of purgatory.
Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are “made” perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits were in purgatory.
1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the “prison.” These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.
To Be Continued
J
jimmy
Guest
Rev. 21:4 - God shall wipe away their tears, and there will be no mourning or pain, but only after the coming of the new heaven and the passing away of the current heaven and earth. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell. These are the souls experiencing purgatory.
Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. Even the propensity to sin is uncleanliness. It is amazing how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful indeed.
Gen. 50:10; Num. 20:29; Deut. 34:8 - here are some examples of ritual prayer and penitent mourning for the dead for specific periods of time. The Jewish understanding of these practices was that the prayers freed the souls from their painful state of purificatioin, and expedited their journey to God.
Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell. These dead are in purgatory.
Zech. 9:11 - God, through the blood of His covenant, will set those free from the waterless pit, a spiritual abode of suffering which the Church calls purgatory.
2 Macc. 12:43-45 - the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory. Luther was particularly troubled with these verses because he rejected the age-old teaching of purgatory. As a result, he removed Maccabees from the canon of the Bible.
To Be Continued
Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. Even the propensity to sin is uncleanliness. It is amazing how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful indeed.
Gen. 50:10; Num. 20:29; Deut. 34:8 - here are some examples of ritual prayer and penitent mourning for the dead for specific periods of time. The Jewish understanding of these practices was that the prayers freed the souls from their painful state of purificatioin, and expedited their journey to God.
Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell. These dead are in purgatory.
Zech. 9:11 - God, through the blood of His covenant, will set those free from the waterless pit, a spiritual abode of suffering which the Church calls purgatory.
2 Macc. 12:43-45 - the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory. Luther was particularly troubled with these verses because he rejected the age-old teaching of purgatory. As a result, he removed Maccabees from the canon of the Bible.
To Be Continued
J
jimmy
Guest
II**. Purification After Death By Fire**
Heb. 12:29 - God is a consuming fire (of love in heaven, of purgation in purgatory, or of suffering and damnation in hell).
1 Cor. 3:10-15 - works are judged after death and tested by fire. Some works are lost, but the person is still saved. Paul is referring to the state of purgation called purgatory. The venial sins (bad works) that were committed are burned up after death, but the person is still brought to salvation. This state after death cannot be heaven (no one with venial sins is present) or hell (there is no forgiveness and salvation).
1 Cor. 3:15 - Paul says though he will be saved, “but only” through fire. The phrase “but only” in the Greek is “houtos” which means “in the same manner.” This means that man is both rewarded and saved by fire.
1 Cor. 3:15 - when Paul teaches that those whose work is burned up will suffer loss, the phrase for “suffer loss” in the Greek is “zemiothesetai.” The root word is “zemioo” which also refers to punishment. This means that there is an expiation of temporal punishment after our death, which cannot mean either heaven (no need for it) or hell (expiation no longer exists).
1 Cor. 3:13 - when Paul writes about God revealing the quality of each man’s work by fire and purifying him, this purification relates to his sins (not just his good works). Protestants, in attempting to disprove the reality of purgatory, argue that Paul was only writing about rewarding good works, and not punishing sins (because punishing and purifying a man from sins would be admitting that there is a purgatory).
1 Cor. 3:17 - but this verse proves that the purgation after death deals with punishing sin. That is, destroying God’s temple is a bad work, which is a mortal sin, which leads to death.
1 Cor. 3:14,15,17 - purgatory thus reveals the state of righteousness (v.14), state of venial sin (v.15) and the state of mortal sin (v.17).
1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter refers to this purgatorial fire to test the fruits of our faith.
Jude 1:23 - the people who are saved are being snatched out of the fire. People are already saved if in heaven, and there is no possibility of salvation if in hell. These people are being led to heaven from purgatory.
Rev. 3:18-19 - Jesus refers to this fire as what refines into gold those He loves if they repent of their sins.
Dan 12:10 - Daniel refers to this refining by saying many shall purify themselves, make themselves white and be refined.
Wis. 3:5-6 - the dead are disciplined and tested by fire to receive their heavenly reward.
Sirach 2:5 - for gold is tested in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of humiliation.
Zech. 13:8-9 - God says 2/3 shall perish, and 1/3 shall be left alive, put into the fire, and refined like silver and tested like gold.
Mal. 3:2-3 - also refers to God’s purification of the righteous at their death.
Heb. 12:29 - God is a consuming fire (of love in heaven, of purgation in purgatory, or of suffering and damnation in hell).
1 Cor. 3:10-15 - works are judged after death and tested by fire. Some works are lost, but the person is still saved. Paul is referring to the state of purgation called purgatory. The venial sins (bad works) that were committed are burned up after death, but the person is still brought to salvation. This state after death cannot be heaven (no one with venial sins is present) or hell (there is no forgiveness and salvation).
1 Cor. 3:15 - Paul says though he will be saved, “but only” through fire. The phrase “but only” in the Greek is “houtos” which means “in the same manner.” This means that man is both rewarded and saved by fire.
1 Cor. 3:15 - when Paul teaches that those whose work is burned up will suffer loss, the phrase for “suffer loss” in the Greek is “zemiothesetai.” The root word is “zemioo” which also refers to punishment. This means that there is an expiation of temporal punishment after our death, which cannot mean either heaven (no need for it) or hell (expiation no longer exists).
1 Cor. 3:13 - when Paul writes about God revealing the quality of each man’s work by fire and purifying him, this purification relates to his sins (not just his good works). Protestants, in attempting to disprove the reality of purgatory, argue that Paul was only writing about rewarding good works, and not punishing sins (because punishing and purifying a man from sins would be admitting that there is a purgatory).
1 Cor. 3:17 - but this verse proves that the purgation after death deals with punishing sin. That is, destroying God’s temple is a bad work, which is a mortal sin, which leads to death.
1 Cor. 3:14,15,17 - purgatory thus reveals the state of righteousness (v.14), state of venial sin (v.15) and the state of mortal sin (v.17).
1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter refers to this purgatorial fire to test the fruits of our faith.
Jude 1:23 - the people who are saved are being snatched out of the fire. People are already saved if in heaven, and there is no possibility of salvation if in hell. These people are being led to heaven from purgatory.
Rev. 3:18-19 - Jesus refers to this fire as what refines into gold those He loves if they repent of their sins.
Dan 12:10 - Daniel refers to this refining by saying many shall purify themselves, make themselves white and be refined.
Wis. 3:5-6 - the dead are disciplined and tested by fire to receive their heavenly reward.
Sirach 2:5 - for gold is tested in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of humiliation.
Zech. 13:8-9 - God says 2/3 shall perish, and 1/3 shall be left alive, put into the fire, and refined like silver and tested like gold.
Mal. 3:2-3 - also refers to God’s purification of the righteous at their death.
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