Why do Catholics believe in Purgatory and Protestants do not?

[Kinsman]

Dan 12:10 - “Daniel refers to this refining by saying many shall purify themselves, make themselves white and be refined.”
Zech. 13:8-9 - “God says 2/3 shall perish, and 1/3 shall be left alive, put into the fire, and refined like silver and tested like gold.”

Both the Book of Daniel and Zechariah are prophetic books. In context Dan12:10 is referring to the future Tribulation period (an earthly event, not "purgatory). In Dan. 12:1 it is said that there will be for Israel “a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a NATION until THAT TIME.” Dan. 12:10 reveals that that time will have a twofold result: through faith in Y’shua HaMachiah some will be purified of sins; while others will continue in their unbelief and wickedness of heart. This context is not referring to dead people in “purgatory” but living people at the time this prophecy will be fulfilled.

The Zechariah passage is of the same prophetic vain. It is a prophecy about Israel at the time of great Tribulation in the future. He states in verse eight, “And it will come about in ALL THE LAND…” (hence, no reference to purgatory, but an earthly event). He then goes on to say that two parts of it (referring to the people of the land) will be cut off and perish, but a third will be left in it (the land). These will turn to their Messiah (vs. 9) call upon His name and they will be His people (cf. Malachi 3:2-4). When you go on to read Zech. chapter 14 you see in the context it is about Jerusalem and Israel in the days just prior to Christ’s return to this earth (see Zech. 14:8-9; 16). These prophecies have nothing to do with “purgatory.” They speak of future, earthy events.

Phil. 2:10 - “every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and “under the earth” which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.”

No, Paul is stating that ALL, friend or foe, must and will eventually bow the knee at the name of Jesus Christ, whether they like it or not! God the Son who left His throne in Heaven, humbled Himself by becoming a man, that His precious blood would be shed as a substitutionary sacrifice, in our stead, in order to redeem sinful mankind from the penalty of sin (Phil. 1:1-8).

“Heaven” here refers to the righteous angelic host who serve in God’s presence; “Earth” refers to ALL the sons of Adam, believers and unbeliever alike; “Under the Earth” refers to the “under world,” the demonic, angelic host (including Satan) who are in rebellion against God. ALL shall bow the knee at the name of Jesus Christ…HE IS LORD over ALL CREATION.

The only way you can get the doctrine of purgatory out of this verse is if YOU force that idea into the text. But left to itself…it’s not there.

You can’t just pull verses out of their context and apply them to your doctrine. That does violence to the Word of God and dishonors it and its Author. Would you like it if someone took your words out of context?

 

[jimmy]

Kinsman

Here is a verse from the bible and a little side note from the bible.

29

Otherwise what shall they do that are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not again at all? why are they then baptized for them? 30 Why also are we in danger every hour? 1Cor15;29-30

29 “That are baptized for the dead”… Some think the apostle here alludes to a ceremony then in use; but others, more probably, to the prayers and penitential labours, performed by the primitive Christians for the souls of the faithful departed; or to the baptism of afflictions and sufferings undergone for sinners spiritually dead.

"16

The Lord give mercy to the house of Onesiphorus: because he hath often refreshed me, and hath not been ashamed of my chain: 17 But when he was come to Rome, he carefully sought me, and found me. 18 The Lord grant unto him to find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou very well knowest." 2Tim1;16-18 *

Why is he asking God for mercy on the soul of Onesiphorus if there is no Purgatory. There is no mercy for those in hell. And those in Heaven don’t need it so if there is no Purgatory then there is no point to pray for mercy.

14

Follow peace with all men, and holiness: without which no man shall see God.Heb12;14

He says you can not enter heaven without holyness. You can not be holy if you sin. Everyone sins so there must be a time of purification.

23

• And to the church of the firstborn, who are written in the heavens, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of the just made perfect, Heb12;23 *

The spirits are made perfect by God.

19

In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison: 1Pet3;19

This is speaking of Jesus speaking to the spirits that were in prison. Prison is Purgatory, it is not Hell.

 

[jimmy]

11

For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: 13 Every man’s work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If any man’s work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire. 16 Know you not, that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 But if any man violate the temple of God, him shall God destroy. For the temple of God is holy, which you are. 18 Let no man deceive himself: if any man among you seem to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written: I will catch the wise in their own craftiness. 20 And again: The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain. Jude 1;11-20
How will he suffer loss and still be saved? The only way this passage makes sense is if there is a Purgatory.

32

• And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come. Matt12;32

You can be forgiven after death also.
*

 

[jimmy]

It seems that you protestants will use anything you can to reject the bible. First you flat out reject 7 books now you are rejecting what it says in the remaining 66 books. I advise you do not ignore what the bible says. There is no proof against Purgatory there is only support for it.

Kinsman. WOW, some great wisdom. You are blessed, Im praying that the Lord will continue to show christian revelation knowledge. All we have to do is continue to get more of Christs Word in us.

Yeah, but it is wisdom that does not make any sense and is not of God. You protestants like to elaborate on what is written in the bible but you don’t want to accept what is there.

 

[bengal_fan]

i understand the cleansing part and that purgatory is a place where our deeds will be tested (paul talks about this, “as one passing through the fire”), but a place of punishment doesn’t seem right as Jesus endured the punishment for our sins. we might have to be cleansed of the leftover muck still on our souls, but the punishment has been paid. can some one explain that to me as i am having a hard time understanding this. (this is a sincere question. not a challenge.)

 

[Kinsman]

jimmy:

*How will he suffer loss and still be saved? The only way this passage makes sense is if there is a Purgatory. *
You can be forgiven after death also.*

Jimmy, the passage makes no sense if you relate it to “purgatory.” The “loss” that is being suffered is “rewards” for labor of no value. The “fire” (metaphore) at this judgment reveals the quality of a man’s works. Though he may suffer loss of certain rewards because the quality of his works do not stand up to divine scrutiny, he himself is still saved because salvation is not based on personal works, but by faith in the Person and finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross - on our behalf. The two are not related.

The passage you quote does not say you can be forgiven after death. Anyway, “purgatory” is not about being forgiven of sins after death, but about you suffering meritoriously the penalty for your own sins. Supposedly a form of cleansing. A process of sanctifying. A notion completely foreign to Scripture!. Only Jesus Christ, the righteous One, could suffer and die for our sins. And according to Scripture forgiveness is based on that fact alone. A sinner cannot suffer for the forgiveness of his own sins. That required the sacrifice of the unblemished Lamb of God (Jn. 1:29). The doctrine of “purgatory” denies the sufficiency of Christ’s work on the cross on our behalf.

ROM 5:19 "For as through the one man’s disobedience (Adam)the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One (Jesus Christ) *the many will be made righteous."
*

 

[Kinsman]

bengal_fan:

i understand the cleansing part and that purgatory is a place where our deeds will be tested (paul talks about this, “as one passing through the fire”), but a place of punishment doesn’t seem right as Jesus endured the punishment for our sins. we might have to be cleansed of the leftover muck still on our souls, but the punishment has been paid. can some one explain that to me as i am having a hard time understanding this. (this is a sincere question. not a challenge.)

You’re confused, my friend, because “purgatory” is not a place where our deeds (works) will be tested. The unbiblical doctrine of purgatory is a place where you suffer for “sins” you’ve committed. However, Biblically there is no such place. ALL our sins were dealt with by God at the cross of Jesus Christ (2 Cor. 5:19-21). That’s what His sacrifice is all about, making “purification of sins” (Heb. 1:3).

“Deeds,” on the other hand are not sins. They are works we perform after we are saved by faith. These works are not appraised in a place called “purgatory,” but at the judgment seat of Christ:

2COR. 5:10 “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.”

Obviously Paul is not referring to “purgatory,” as the judgment seat of Christ, since “purgatory” is suppose to deal with sins. The judgment seat of Christ is about being recompensed for deeds (works after salvation) weather “good” or “bad.” This has nothing to do with sins, for no sins are rendered “good.”

Your confusion stems from accepting a doctrine that has no Biblical base whatsoever. Reject the false doctrine of purgatory and your confusion will be gone.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

jimmy:

spokenword

How can you talk about anyone making assumptions? You protestants assume that Jesus was not being litteral when he said you must eat his body, which it says nowhere in the bible thwat he isn’t being litteral. You protestants are assuming that you are saved by faith alone, when infact in the bible it says that you are not saved by faith alone. You are assuming that the catholic church screwed up in the first thirty years of christian history when you have no proof at all. How can you ever say that the catholic church s wrong? Do you know the bible better than St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, and St. Ambrose and all the other catholic saints and apostles in history? The bible does not contradict any catholic belief. I dare you to search for proof. Use honest sources though and not the anti-catholic sources.

Jimmy, If you read in John 6 vs60-63,you will see that what Jesus said about his body and flesh. In verse 63 you see that Jesus says It is the spirit that gives life,the flesh is useless. The Words I have spoken to you are SPIRIT AND LIFE. This confirms He was speaking spiritually.

 

[MariaG]

Bengal Fan,

I had a whole post, reread your question, and realized it didn’t answer the central question:

The punishment has been paid. Cleansing is not the question.

My gut instinct says this is just a semantics problem. But I have nothing to back it up. I do not believe the “punishment” as referred to in the Catechism is the same punishment you are referring to that Jesus already paid.

Maybe if you defined punishment in this meaning, another more learned person can help you, but I think this all is a semantic issue. The words are the same but the meaning, I think, varies.

( A wholly unscholarly and no way to back it up answer is Jesus paid the punishment for sin, for all. That saves us from death. But we still have to pay it more personally. We were saved from the punishment of death, but not the “punishment” of cleaning up the mess it left.)

God Bless

P.S. I do not think it is a mistake that God shows us as Our Father. Frequently, I understand things of God through my relationship with my children. My child throws his juice on the floor. He gets in trouble. I forgive him. He still has to clean up the juice.

 

[Kinsman]

29 Otherwise what shall they do that are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not again at all? why are they then baptized for them? 30 Why also are we in danger every hour? 1Cor15;29-30

This verse, Jimmy, is extremely brief, and remains obscure because this is the ONLY place in Scripture it is found, and Paul does not elaborate on it. So we cannot know exactly what Paul is referring to here. But the point, in context, he was making here had nothing to do with “purgatory,” but his argument defending the truth of a future, bodily resurrection of the dead. That’s what the whole chapter of 1 Cor. 15 is about. (note… “baptism for the dead” in “Christendom” did not start until the 2nd century, and then only amongst heretics. Today it’s practiced by Mormons, another heretical sect).

“16 The Lord give mercy to the house of Onesiphorus: because he hath often refreshed me, and hath not been ashamed of my chain: 17 But when he was come to Rome, he carefully sought me, and found me. 18 The Lord grant unto him to find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou very well knowest.” 2Tim1;16-18
Why is he asking God for mercy on the soul of Onesiphorus if there is no Purgatory. There is no mercy for those in hell. And those in Heaven don’t need it so if there is no Purgatory then there is no point to pray for mercy.

First of all, Paul nowhere teaches the doctrine of “purgatory,” yet you insert that non-Pauline doctrine into this verse. In other words, putting words into his mouth. Secondly, there is nothing here to suggest that Onesiphorus is dead, simply because Paul asks God to grant mercy on the house of Onesiphorus. A man is not separated from his household. In verse 18 Paul specifically asks blessings (mercy) toward Onesiphorus because of the personal acts of kindness he rendered to Paul during his imprisonment, not being ashamed of his chains. The term “that day” obviously means the day when Onesiphorus himself will stand before the judgment seat of Christ and his deeds will be appraised and rewarded accordingly (2 Cor. 5:10), and Paul is asking that the kindness of Onesiphorus toward him be remembered by the Lord in “that day.” This has NOTHING to do with “purgatory.”

 

[Kinsman]

MariaG:

A wholly unscholarly and no way to back it up answer is Jesus paid the punishment for sin, for all. That saves us from death. But we still have to pay it more personally. We were saved from the punishment of death, but not the “punishment” of cleaning up the mess it left. P.S. I do not think it is a mistake that God shows us as Our Father. Frequently, I understand things of God through my relationship with my children. My child throws his juice on the floor. He gets in trouble. I forgive him. He still has to clean up the juice.

Your domestic analogy certainly fits for the consequences of sin we suffer in this world system (cosmos). We live in a big mess because of it. But it is not compatible with what God has revealed in His written Word regarding our redemption through the death and shed blood of His beloved Son, Jesus Christ. According to the Apostle Paul, our sins were imputed to Christ and His righteousness was imputed to us (believers).

“He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him” (2 Cor. 5:21).

Paul, in the Book of Romans, compares Adam with Christ and their effects upon humanity:

ROM 5:16 “And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the *free gift *arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.”

ROM 5:17 “For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.”

ROM 5:18 “So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.”

ROM 5:19 “For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.”

From Adam: judgment and condemnation
From Christ: justification
From Adam: death
From Christ: grace; free gift of righteousness
From Adam: made sinners
From Christ: made righteous

God has not left anything for us to “clean up.” When a sinner believes in Jesus Christ he is no longer in Adam, the sinner, but in Christ Jesus, the "Last Adam," made righteous. For this reason you’ll never find the doctrine of purgatory in the Bible. It would utterly contradict what God as marvelously accomplished for us through the death, burial and resurrection of His Son. It’s called unmerited, unrecompensed, undeserved GRACE.

 

[jimmy]

SPOKENWORD:

Jimmy, If you read in John 6 vs60-63,you will see that what Jesus said about his body and flesh. In verse 63 you see that Jesus says It is the spirit that gives life,the flesh is useless. The Words I have spoken to you are SPIRIT AND LIFE. This confirms He was speaking spiritually.

Spirit and Life does not mean that he was being figurative or talking spiritually. It is the body blood and spirit of Jesus Christ.

“Are spirit and life”… By proposing to you a heavenly sacrament, in which you shall receive, in a wonderful manner, spirit, grace, and life, in its very fountain.

 

[jimmy]

Kinsman:

This verse, Jimmy, is extremely brief, and remains obscure because this is the ONLY place in Scripture it is found, and Paul does not elaborate on it. So we cannot know exactly what Paul is referring to here. But the point, in context, he was making here had nothing to do with “purgatory,” but his argument defending the truth of a future, bodily resurrection of the dead. That’s what the whole chapter of 1 Cor. 15 is about. (note… “baptism for the dead” in “Christendom” did not start until the 2nd century, and then only amongst heretics. Today it’s practiced by Mormons, another heretical sect).

First of all, Paul nowhere teaches the doctrine of “purgatory,” yet you insert that non-Pauline doctrine into this verse. In other words, putting words into his mouth. Secondly, there is nothing here to suggest that Onesiphorus is dead, simply because Paul asks God to grant mercy on the house of Onesiphorus. A man is not separated from his household. In verse 18 Paul specifically asks blessings (mercy) toward Onesiphorus because of the personal acts of kindness he rendered to Paul during his imprisonment, not being ashamed of his chains. The term “that day” obviously means the day when Onesiphorus himself will stand before the judgment seat of Christ and his deeds will be appraised and rewarded accordingly (2 Cor. 5:10), and Paul is asking that the kindness of Onesiphorus toward him be remembered by the Lord in “that day.” This has NOTHING to do with “purgatory.”

You really have a great tallent for deceiving yourself. It is very clear that h supports praying for the dead in these verses.

 

[1962Missal]

SPOKENWORD:

Jimmy, If you read in John 6 vs60-63,you will see that what Jesus said about his body and flesh. In verse 63 you see that Jesus says It is the spirit that gives life,the flesh is useless. The Words I have spoken to you are SPIRIT AND LIFE. This confirms He was speaking spiritually.

Please show from the Bible where “Spiritual” means “Symbolic”.

Justin

 

[SPOKENWORD]

1962Missal:

Please show from the Bible where “Spiritual” means “Symbolic”.

Justin

Justin, The Words which Jesus spoke to his apostles were symbolic and spiritual in nature. He spoke naturally with a spiritual meaning.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

1962Missal:

Please show from the Bible where “Spiritual” means “Symbolic”.

Justin

Read Matt.26 vs 26 is a good example.

 

[jimmy]

SPOKENWORD:

Read Matt.26 vs 26 is a good example.

No where does it say it is sybolic or anything that could even be construed as meaning symbolic. I think you need to reread that verse. It seams that you don’t accept it because it just does not fit into your view of God. You need to relize that God is beyond your definition and comprehension of him.

 

[1962Missal]

SPOKENWORD:

Justin, The Words which Jesus spoke to his apostles were symbolic and spiritual in nature. He spoke naturally with a spiritual meaning.

I did not ask whether Jesus spoke either spiritually or symbolically. He did both. I asked where in the Bible the word “spiritual” is used as a synonym for “symbolic”.

SPOKENWORD:

Read Matt.26 vs 26 is a good example.

That isn’t an example at all. I am looking for an instance in the bible in which the inspired author uses the word “spiritual” as a synonym for “symbolic” or “not literal”.

Justin

 

[reggie]

The devil must be having a great laugh. He just loves it when we Christians fight so among ourselves. We spend way too much time on the things which divide us and not on those which unite. Since Martin Luther, the Christian church has become steadily more and more fractionalized and there is only one who benefits from that. I have no problem with the free flow of opinions and even outright disagreements, but, when we are so adamant that we get snide and derisive, nothing is to be gained.

I would like to address two such earlier posts by non-catholics. One hinted that Catholics believe in purgatory because we do not believe Jesus’ sacrifice to be sufficient and ridiculed the Sacraments saying, we need purgatory because these seven graces aren’t enough.The other intimated that Catholics are not taught how to lead Christian lives.

Let me begin by saying that the paractice of Protestants show how shallow and selfish their faith really is. It is so easy to just say Jesus died for me and that’s that. I don’t have to do anything, live a certain way or practice any kind of religion to be saved. All I have to do is say the sinners’ prayer and all is good and right. I think if you look closely in the Bible, especially the Gospels, you will find many times where Jesus’ speaks of what one must do to enter heaven and have eternal life. He speaks of loving God, keeping His commandments, giving away earthly treasure, loving our neighbors as ourselves, repenting of our sins, and yes one of HIs ways is to believe inHim. St. Paul says that now that we are under grace does that mean we give up the law, no, we keep the law because of faith. In other words, before justification, Jews kept the law because it was the law, afterwards, it was because of faith because God had kept his word by sending the Messiah and we respond by keeping His commandments.

God always wants a response from His people. Yes, His gift is freely given in that we can never merit it on our own, but we have to respond not just by being a receiver of faith and grace but by also being a giver of love. Jesus demands response, outward evidence of faith, He says straight out that not everyone who calls upon Him will enter heaven. He says straight out that the road is narrow and difficult to follow and few will. That is far from the philosophy that all who proclaim faith in Jesus will be saved. Only the RCC understands the depth and richness of faith. We strive for heaven and through the visible signs of Jesus in the Sacraments acquire the grace we need to live and love as Jesus has asked. The Sacraments are not magic potions, they are earthly, visible signs of the graces we receive from Jesus. They deepen our faith and give us strength for the every day life. The Eucharist is Jesus Himself, as He said He was the bread of life, and when those who thought this was too far out and hard of a saying left, Jesus did not try to stop them. Christianity is not for the feint of heart. Look in Mathew, when Jesus is tempted by the devil, He says that man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God. He is that Word, the Eucharist is not merely bread. Believe as you will, like Jesus, if the saying is too hard for you I will not try to convince you either. It is true that many practicing Catholics don’t always fully understand this but that is not for lack of teaching by the church.
con’t

 

[reggie]

One of the effects of the reformation that I don’t believe has been really addressed is the relationship the church has to her members. It is true that in the past, the church was almost a warden, forcing belief and practice on her members and even going so far as to punish those who did not conform to her demands. That has changed greatly. Yes, in some cases, the church excommunicates people, or denies them Sacraments, but that is on those who want to be Catholic but don’t want to adhere to the beliefs and practices. What I mean is that we are left to work out our own salvation, by whatever means we choose. We do not suffer burning, public humiliation or any other form of physical punishment if we don’t go to church, or confession or whatever. The church is there, offering grace and guidance, to any who will come to her. It is kind of the same with Jesus. He never claimed that all would be saved. Only those who come to Him with an heart open to His message and the willingness to take up the cross and follow Him. It seems to me that in the current age, no one wants to suffer in any way; as if we all deserve happiness, health, wealth or any of the earthly riches we want. We all want to be beautiful, remain young, have it all etc… But Jesus never promised that life would be easy. The Catholic church understand this and urges her members to accept their own suffering and join it with Christs’ to make it holy and redeeming. We don’t mean to say that HIs suffering is not enough, but that when we share in his suffering, we may also share in His eternity. That idea is expressed in the Bible many times. That is one of the reasons that Catholics can understand purgatory, we know that our suffering can be redemptive to others when we offer it up with the suffering of Christ. Now if I was a Biblical Concordance, I could quote the chapter and verse of this, but I am not, I don’t trouble myself with memorizing chapter and verse numbers. I am more concerned with the message itself, taken in the context of whole passages and with the understanding of the early church fathers and the Traditions of the the church. That is why so many were martyred in the early years, they were not afraid of suffering, in fact they rejoiced in suffering for Jesus. Now I do not advocate self flagelation or mortification, but I do accept that I will have suffering in this life and most likely in the next where I will know the pain my sins have caused in others and how it separated me from God. This is fully Biblical and does not denigrate Jesus or His sacrifice. In fact it is that which is more reverent that saying, Hey I’m cool, Jesus died for me and whatever I do is unimportant because He gave me this gift and all I have to do is take it and have confidence that I am saved, saved I tell ya. I believe that Jesus opened the gates of heaven, but it only through my own cooperation that I will walk through them.