Why do Catholics believe in Purgatory and Protestants do not?

[reggie]

Now the last thing I would like to address is the post stating that the church does not teach its members how to lead a Christian life. This one really bothers me because is shows an utter lack of knowledge of the church but is put out there for those who don’t know any better to see. The Catholic church is the only church that teaches the Christian life. In every way the catechism is the guide to life, faith and death. It is there for all to see and learn from; unfortunately, not enough Catholics take the time to further their own knowledge of their religion. Some are content to just be a part of it, show up and go on their way. I am always searching for more; more knowledge, more faith, more understanding etc. It is not my place to say which is better, I can only say that some have the faith of little children, some are constantly reaching for more of the above. We are all in church for the same reason though, to worship God, to receive Jesus and pray for ourselves and the rest of the faithful, alive or dead.

As for the Church, it is one of the only faiths standing for the real morals and practices of Christianity. Unlike other faiths, the Catholic church does not say whatever you want to do is okay as long as no gets hurt and it is between two consenting adults. It does not teach using faith as a means to gain worldly goods, it does not teach that it is okay to have a choice to rip a baby from your womb, and that it is ever okay to do so. Many Catholics, seduced by the liberality of other faiths don’t want to follow the mores and dictates of the Church. That does not mean that the church is not still teaching the same faith and morals she has been teaching for nearly 2000 years. It simply goes back to what I said about the church leaving our salvation to ourselves. If we don’t want to follow church teaching, we don’t have to, no one will hold that against us. Until judgement day anyway. But the Catholic Church is a church of the Ten Commandments and hasn’t ever backed down from them. Pope John Paul II has been ridiculed as out of touch, someone who doesn’t understand the world today and as a bigot, racist and many other things. All because he refuses to give in to the lax standards of other Christian faiths, or even the calls from Catholics who want a change in teaching. He is the ever solid rock, just as Jesus said that the head of the church would be, strong in faith and morals, and never giving in to popular opinion. So don’t believe for a minute that the Church doesn’t teach people the Christian life. It is the people who must grow and mature in their faith and the practices of it. We are all responsible for our own destiny and can find the Way, the Truth and the Life in the Catholic Church if we choose to look.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

1962Missal:

I did not ask whether Jesus spoke either spiritually or symbolically. He did both. I asked where in the Bible the word “spiritual” is used as a synonym for “symbolic”.

That isn’t an example at all. I am looking for an instance in the bible in which the inspired author uses the word “spiritual” as a synonym for “symbolic” or “not literal”.

Justin

Just because those words were not used doesnt mean it is not true. Jesus spoke in the supernatural with a symbolic meaming.

 

[jimmy]

SPOKENWORD:

Just because those words were not used doesnt mean it is not true. Jesus spoke in the supernatural with a symbolic meaming.

So you are going to add the words not lliteral and just assume that is what he is saying. That is completely anti-biblical. Not unbiblical but anti-biblical because you are changing what it says.

 

[Pax]

RedGolum:

Luther did not throw out James. While he did think it was an easy book to misunderstand (like Revelations) he did not want to remove it. In fact, he had to DEFEND it to some of the other Reformers.

You are terribly wrong about this. Luther called James “an epistle of straw.” Moreover, he also said that it should be thrown into the furnace.

 

[Pax]

SPOKENWORD:

Kathilikos,Please understand I am not offended in what you say to me. Because of God mercy I believe our confessed sins are forgotten by our Lord as if they never existed. Now to say we have a penalty to pay for our confessed sin is saying that God doesnt forget about it. Please give me some scriptures that says confessed sin carries a penaly that we have to pay for. I will then concede and say I am wrong. Jesus Christ was always right and yet people did not accept his truth.

Here is just one example:

2 Samuel 12:13-14
David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.” And Nathan said to David, “The Lord also has put away your sin; you shall not die. ***Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the Lord, the child that is born to you shall die.” ** *

 

[1962Missal]

SPOKENWORD:

Just because those words were not used doesn’t mean it is not true. Jesus spoke in the supernatural with a symbolic meaning.

Whether the words “symbolic” or “not literal” are used isn’t the point. The point is that you are implying that, in the case of John 6:63, “spirit” is a synonym or metaphor for “symbol”. What I am asking is to be shown where else, in Bible, “spirit” or “spiritual” is used as a synonym or a metaphor for “symbol” or “symbolic”. Because, if that is a biblical usage, then you ought to be able to point to other instances.

Justin

 

[MariaG]

I offer a prayer,

May God’s Love and Peace temper our actions and our words. Let us in all truth and love share the word of God to the best of our knowledge. Holy Spirit guide us in Love. Lord help me to recognize that even though we may differ greatly in beliefs, we all are professed Christians following you to the best of our individual abilities. I pray that your spirit will once again be seen and be present in the words of your people whether they call themselves Catholic, Baptist, Lutheran, etc. I am sorry Lord, we have reduced the beautiful gift you have given to us to bickering and arguing. Even though I believe my Protestant brothers and sisters to be in error and they of me, help us to treat each other with Christian Love. And I ask this through Christ our Lord. Amen.

 

[MariaG]

This thread used to be a conductive dialogue. Now there has been so much Scripture thrown about so much unaswered questions, and people on both sides are starting to lose their temper. If I were not a Christian, I would not wish to be Catholic or Protestant.

Let us get back to Scripture, One or two at a time. Also, Maybe it would be conductive to look into more depth the Scripture our protestant friends had no interpretation for. But let us please remember, Catholics do have Scripture (along with Sacred Tradition) for our belief in Purgatory. Protestants may not agree with that interpretation. This is how it has been for 500 years but getting angry at our brothers in Christ is not productive. (Even if you feel the Catholic/Protestant church is the enemy, you are still supposed to show love to your enemy!)

Here are two Scripture I feel Have either been mentioned and not discussed yet or not mentioned. (If I missed them of forgot about them my apologies, I am just trying to move this discussion back to where it used to be.)

Mt5:48 tells us to be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect
Jam 3:2 tells us we all fall short in many respects
Rev 21:27 tells us nothing unclean shall enter heaven.

Taken in totallity. If nothing unclean can enter, but we are told we fall short, this is PART of the picture on Purgatory. Taken along with the Jewish beliefs on death and prayers for the dead, this is another piece. Catholic belief has to be taken not peice by piece but In totality.

Maybe an examination of the Jewish beliefs of death are a better place to start or go back to?
God Bless,
Maria

 

[Kinsman]

jimmy:

You really have a great tallent for deceiving yourself. It is very clear that h supports praying for the dead in these verses.

The verse explicitly states “baptized for the dead.” Does the Roman church now practice baptizing for the dead? The verse says nothing about “praying” for them.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

1962Missal:

Whether the words “symbolic” or “not literal” are used isn’t the point. The point is that you are implying that, in the case of John 6:63, “spirit” is a synonym or metaphor for “symbol”. What I am asking is to be shown where else, in Bible, “spirit” or “spiritual” is used as a synonym or a metaphor for “symbol” or “symbolic”. Because, if that is a biblical usage, then you ought to be able to point to other instances.

Justin

Another example would be in Ephesians 6. God tells us to put on the armour of God. The armour being the helmet of salvation,breastplate,belt of truth,gospel shoes, shield of faith, sword of the spirit. This armour is being put on spiritually. It symbolizes Gods army issue uniform.We are now equiped to do spiritual warfare.

 

[jimmy]

SPOKENWORD:

Another example would be in Ephesians 6. God tells us to put on the armour of God. The armour being the helmet of salvation,breastplate,belt of truth,gospel shoes, shield of faith, sword of the spirit. This armour is being put on spiritually. It symbolizes Gods army issue uniform.We are now equiped to do spiritual warfare.

The word spirit is not being used here to mean symbolic. The word sword is being used to be symbolic. The word spirit in this line means spirit. That is all there is to it. Spirit is not a term that means sybolic or not literal any where in the bible.

 

[rusaved]

Protestants do not believe in purgatory because it goes agsainst everything the Gospel teaches.
The scriptures tell us it is only by Grace we are saved and not of ourselves lest any man shoud boast. We cannot add anything to what he did for us. We cannot pray hard enough, be holy enough, go to church enough, or love enough to please God. If we could Jesus would never have had to die. When we think we can be good enough and earn our way to Heaven we are spitting on the blood of Jesus.
When Jesus died on the cross, he bore our sin once and for all. This was the ultimate sacrifice.

 

[mrS4ntA]

rusaved:

Protestants do not believe in purgatory because it goes agsainst everything the Gospel teaches.
The scriptures tell us it is only by Grace we are saved and not of ourselves lest any man shoud boast.

uh, huh, so?

rusaved:

We cannot add anything to what he did for us.

We can, however, reject His graces and turn ourselves away from Him – since what he did on the Cross did NOT take away our free will.

rusaved:

We cannot pray hard enough, be holy enough, go to church enough, or love enough to please God.

Indeed, we can’t, we are but creatures – these in itself would not mean anything in the eyes of the Supreme Creator. But these good works we perform are not without the grace of God! By Christ’s sacrifice and graces are they made fit for God… “Faith without works is dead.” We are called to “follow [Jesus] and bear our crosses”, not just “follow”.

It’s like this analogy:
a Master is kind enough to a slave of his to adopt the slave as his own son. Now, (keeping with the historical context) this slave owns nothing and merits nothing to deserve his master’s sonhood, but the Master adopts him anyway – out of pure love. It is fitting, then, for the slave to “gloats” and did nothing to express gratitude to the kind master? Is it enough to “just accept his sonhood” and that’s it… he’s “saved” in his master’s family? Think about that…

 

[PXseeker]

This is not a strict Catholic vs. Protestant issue. There are tons of Catholics who reject Purgatory. Say what you will about them, it is difficult if not impossible to reconcile this concept with unconditional grace.

I was a practicing Catholic for 49 years, for most of them, my friends and I did not hold to the teachings about Purgatory.

Peace,
John

 

[jimmy]

rusaved:

Protestants do not believe in purgatory because it goes agsainst everything the Gospel teaches.
The scriptures tell us it is only by Grace we are saved and not of ourselves lest any man shoud boast. We cannot add anything to what he did for us. We cannot pray hard enough, be holy enough, go to church enough, or love enough to please God. If we could Jesus would never have had to die. When we think we can be good enough and earn our way to Heaven we are spitting on the blood of Jesus.
When Jesus died on the cross, he bore our sin once and for all. This was the ultimate sacrifice.

It goes agianst nothing the bible teaches. I posted many verses from the bible that support Purgatory in posts above. You you do not pray, if you are not trying to be holy, if you have no love, you will not be saved. James said you are not justified by faith alone. Paul said faith without works is dead. Love is a work you must do it to be saved.

and you shall love Yahweh your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. Deuteronomy 6:5

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However, if you fulfill the royal law, according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well.James 2:8

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He who doesn’t love doesn’t know God, for God is love. 1 John 4:8

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If a man says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who doesn’t love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen? 1 John 4:20

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We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers. He who doesn’t love his brother remains in death. 1 John 3:14

 

[Pax]

PXseeker:

This is not a strict Catholic vs. Protestant issue. There are tons of Catholics who reject Purgatory. Say what you will about them, it is difficult if not impossible to reconcile this concept with unconditional grace.

I was a practicing Catholic for 49 years, for most of them, my friends and I did not hold to the teachings about Purgatory.

Peace,
John

In my fifty five years of being a Catholic I have never known a Catholic that did not believe in purgatory. This includes many fallen away Catholics that had little grounding in their faith. I think our anecdotal experience may not be of much help here.

Your statement about reconciling purgatory with unconditional grace needs some elaboration. Much can be said about grace and much can be said about purgatory. Understandings about both would have to be clearly and thoroughly expressed before I would know what you mean.

For a well grounded and catechized Catholic there is no conflict between grace and purgatory. If expressed properly to a Protestant there may even be some reluctant agreement on this. If sanctification is understood than it is easy to understand purgatory as one’s final sanctification and detachment from sin.

The only way you can appreciate these things is to go to reliable, high quality Catholic sources that expound on the topic at length. Anti-Catholic sources are of no help in becoming informed about purgatory because the authors have little interest in exploring the possibility of truth. I’m not suggesting that a person still won’t reject the teaching, but most people that disagree with purgatory are not well informed of the biblical basis of the teaching. A healthy skepticism is Okay, but an open mind and a genuine curiosity will go along way in understanding. I would suggest checking out tracts on catholic.com; jamesakin.com; and ic.net/~erasmus/RAZHOME.HTM

Check out everything you can in order to get the full picture. It’s all good.

 

[PXseeker]

Pax:

In my fifty five years of being a Catholic I have never known a Catholic that did not believe in purgatory. This includes many fallen away Catholics that had little grounding in their faith. I think our anecdotal experience may not be of much help here.

Your statement about reconciling purgatory with unconditional grace needs some elaboration. Much can be said about grace and much can be said about purgatory. Understandings about both would have to be clearly and thoroughly expressed before I would know what you mean.

For a well grounded and catechized Catholic there is no conflict between grace and purgatory. If expressed properly to a Protestant there may even be some reluctant agreement on this. If sanctification is understood than it is easy to understand purgatory as one’s final sanctification and detachment from sin.

The only way you can appreciate these things is to go to reliable, high quality Catholic sources that expound on the topic at length. Anti-Catholic sources are of no help in becoming informed about purgatory because the authors have little interest in exploring the possibility of truth. I’m not suggesting that a person still won’t reject the teaching, but most people that disagree with purgatory are not well informed of the biblical basis of the teaching. A healthy skepticism is Okay, but an open mind and a genuine curiosity will go along way in understanding. I would suggest checking out tracts on catholic.com; jamesakin.com; and ic.net/~erasmus/RAZHOME.HTM

Check out everything you can in order to get the full picture. It’s all good.

Pax,

There’s quite a lot of good material out there and catholic.com does a great job of explaining things from your point of view.

Many of us maintain that requiring sanctification is inconsistent with the unconditional gift of grace given through Christ’s redemption. Further purification somehow implies conditional salvation or a less than perfect redemption. Catholics do not interpret thing in this manner and can cite scripture to support their view of sanctifying grace and purgatory.

If one views fiduciary grace as sufficient and complete then one cannot appreciate the logic of complementary, sanctifying grace.

I spent many hours debating this issue with a bright fellow on other boards. It wasn’t until I realized that we did not agree on the basic premise that I had to conclude that the debate was to no avail.

Another issue I have with these doctrines is that they lead many to pursure works based righteousness, which is even further removed from my belief in the nature of unconditional grace.

This is why the groundbreaking Joint Declaration leaves me somewhat lukewarm. All these fine minds, all the spirit of ecumenism and still there was a basic agreement to disagree. If these folks are an that space, then I would humbly suggest that we will get no further.

Peace,
John

 

[notbrainwashed]

Because Catholics distort the truth. Hold out false lies as truths, and have brainwashed their flock into believing their cultic teachings.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

notbrainwashed:

Because Catholics distort the truth. Hold out false lies as truths, and have brainwashed their flock into believing their cultic teachings.

OK.Brainwashed, Your full of critisizm,whats your take on the TRUTH?

 

[Scapular]

This is a great discussion and really brings to the fore one of the core differences we face as Protestants and Catholics.

The subject of Purgatory is remarkable because we are discussing the make-up of the spiritual afterlife and how God brings souls to himself.

The Protestant complaint seems to be that sanctification should not be needed given the perfect sacrifice of our Lord on the cross.

As a new Catholic (1 year) I have recently read the book Purgatory by Fr. Schouppe (also mentioned elsewhere in this thread). Schouppe’s book is a scholarly page-turner on the subject, representing 2000 years of private revelation on Purgatory. From the biblical perspective Fr. Schouppe adds little, leaving the biblical references to those appearing on this Earth from Purgatory.

I would like to offer the following perspective:

Our Lord regularly asks the pious of this life for additional suffering for the purpose of sanctification. We see this in the lives of any pious who draw close to God. This sanctification is a basic characteristic of a Christian. (See C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity). Why?

Why does the Lord seek our pious and devoted lives? What is to gain if sanctification is complete in His sacrifice.

Surely, the sacrifice is complete. Nevertheless, Our Lord while drawing souls to Himself, also seeks their sanctification in this life and in the next. Why, the next? Because, most of the time, sanctification is incomplete.

Why doesn’t Jesus just save all souls from purgatory? I don’t know, probably because God is just and holy and pure. It is apparent that he seeks reasons to demonstrate his mercy to these souls, for example, he grants mercy to those who were merciful in this life. Indeed, here he lends meaning to the Beatitudes for the saved souls in Pergatory – where before the Beatitudes seemed to have no meaning in the Protestant context of sanctification.

I challenge any Protestant to read the Schouppe book and still not believe.

Why do I ask a valid question of our Protestant friends? This is because they too are seekers, lovers of God, and obedient to his ways. Further, except for Mormons, the Church has been alive for the last 2000 years and Our Lord has been active in his church. If you agree that the Lord has been active in his Church then you will look at the Schouppe book and ask yourself, “Well, 300-ish private revelations that tell the same story about Purgatory does carry significant weight in the historical context of this life.”