Why do Catholics believe in Purgatory and Protestants do not?

[flameburns623]

Protestants believe that the redeemed are not ‘made’ righteous by anything they do or fail to do but are declared so by God’s gracious acting on their behalf. Protestants believe that grace is an act and not a thing. It is a free act of God to declare a sinner righteous by virtue of Christ’s atoning sacrifice and not based upon anything the sinner has done or failed to do. One is not only redeemed but sanctified by Christ’s death, and no act of the redeemed sinner can in any way add to the merits of Christ’s sacrifice.

Therefore the distinctions made in Roman Catholicism make little sense to Protestant theolgy. There is no temporal punishment to pay: God, in His forgiveness, covers over the sin entirely through the atoning blood of Christ. He not only doesn’t hold the broken window against you as a person but in no wise obliges you to pay for it: the payment was made in the person of Christ. He not only pardons you of the prison sentence but of the need to make restitution to the victim: the restitution was paid by Christ. To say, as Roman theology does, that a ‘temporal’ measure of punishment remains draws into question the completeness of Christ’s sacrifice.

 

[jimmy]

The thing is that you can not enter Heaven with any sin. You must be perfect. That is the point of Purgatory, to make you perfect.

Protestants need to realize that although you are saved by faith, your actions may condemn you to Hell.

 

[flameburns623]

Jimmy:

The thing is that you can not enter Heaven with any sin. You must be perfect. That is the point of Purgatory, to make you perfect.

Protestants need to realize that although you are saved by faith, your actions may condemn you to Hell.

One’s actions have little to do with whether one goes to Hell or not. All humans are deserving of Hell. All humans are born at enmity with God. All seek to fill the ‘God-shaped hole’ with a god of their own making. None of us seek the True and Only God. All of us willfully and culpably sin against Him. None of us chooses God–none of us have the faculty to chose Him. We will all face Him as malefactors before a pure and holy God, as destitute debtors before the One to Whom we owe all. We are all dead to God.

God, of His own sovereign and free will, under no compulsion or obligation, and based in no wise upon any virtue or loveliness in us, without any respect of our persons, station, or worthiness, for purposes and reasons of His own, chooses and elects some of us to salvation. He alone makes us alive through Christ’s atonement. He alone acts to enable us to desire Him. He alone gives us the saving faith in Christ by which we are saved. He alone sanctifies us. He alone preserves us unto Him. He places in us His Holy Spirit Who causes us to hate and abhor the works of the flesh to which we are ever throughout life tempted, and Who exhorts and enables us to works pleasing to God. The Elect will stand before God as sinners clothed not in their own righteousness, which will ever be ‘as filthy rags’; but clothed instead in the righteousness of Christ their Redeemer.

The Christian will come before the throne of God ‘simil justus et pecatur’–‘at the same time, just and sinner’. The notion that a person can, in this life, perfect themselves and so ‘merit’ admission to Heaven or somehow ‘sanctify’ themselves into a special state of personal holiness is a heresy known as ‘perfectionism’. It denies the grace of God. It denies the completeness and perfection of Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross. It attributes to human bengs what is God’s prerogative alone. Purgatory both presupposes and underpins this heresy, and is therefore rejected by Protestants.

In Protestant theology there is sometimes a corrolary to the notion of Purgatory. It is called the ‘judgement of the Believer’s works’, and is usually believed to occur at the Second Coming. Note that all believers are received directly and immediately at death into the Presence of God and into the joy of His Kingdom. At the Second Coming, however, there is thought by many to be an evaluation of the works of each believer: commendation to the valiant one, rebuke for the carnal or neglectful. This is scarcely a ‘purgation’, since the believer is ALREADY in the Presence of God, and since the believer is not made ‘more’ or ‘less’ sanctified by this judgement. This IS what is described in I Corinthians 3:12-15, so often cited in favor of purgatory.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

flameburns623:

One’s actions have little to do with whether one goes to Hell or not. All humans are deserving of Hell. All humans are born at enmity with God. All seek to fill the ‘God-shaped hole’ with a god of their own making. None of us seek the True and Only God. All of us willfully and culpably sin against Him. None of us chooses God–none of us have the faculty to chose Him. We will all face Him as malefactors before a pure and holy God, as destitute debtors before the One to Whom we owe all. We are all dead to God.

Do we hear shades of Total Depravity?

God, of His own sovereign and free will, under no compulsion or obligation, and based in no wise upon any virtue or loveliness in us, without any respect of our persons, station, or worthiness, for purposes and reasons of His own, chooses and elects some of us to salvation.

Do we hear the gloomy clanking of Limited Atonement and Double Predestination?

The Elect will stand before God as sinners clothed not in their own righteousness, which will ever be ‘as filthy rags’; but clothed instead in the righteousness of Christ their Redeemer.

This is the notion of Imputed Righteousness, isn’t it? A thousand light years away from the manner in which both Catholics and Orthodox view salvation.

Ah, Flameburns623, if I ever thought that Calvin and the cruel teachings of TULIP were remotely connected with the teachings of our dear Lord Jesus Christ, I would be obliged to renounce Christianity and set out on the search for God and truth.

 

[flameburns623]

The doctrines of Augustine and Calvin do indeed cut harshly against our human nature. We want so earnestly to be able to claim some part of the credit for our own salvation. Your reaction is the stereotypical one of the unregenerate soul. If you really meant your concluding remark, you probably aren’t one of God’s to begin with. No offense intended, please, it’s simply part-and-parcel of the theolgy of the position, and not intended as a personal slight. On the other hand, mebbe a bit more study of the topic would help. Start with “No Place for Sovereignity: What’s Wrong with Freewill Theism” by RK McGregor Wright. He reviews the philosophical and theological cases for freewill theism versus predestinarianism quite well before making his case. Also, “The Death of Death in the Death of Christ” by John Owen,and “Chosen by God” by Sproul.

In any case: my posts were meant to establish the theological basis whereby Purgatory is rendered irrational and irrelevant to Reformational understandings of soteriology. I believe that was the opening question of this thread.

Ah, Flameburns623, if I ever thought that Calvin and the cruel teachings of TULIP were remotely connected with the teachings of our dear Lord Jesus Christ, I would be obliged to renounce Christianity and set out on the search for God and truth.

A head’s up: we only get one God to choose from. And He has to choose us first.

 

[Scapular]

flameburns623:

One’s actions have little to do with whether one goes to Hell or not. All humans are deserving of Hell. All humans are born at enmity with God. All seek to fill the ‘God-shaped hole’ with a god of their own making. None of us seek the True and Only God. All of us willfully and culpably sin against Him. None of us chooses God–none of us have the faculty to chose Him. We will all face Him as malefactors before a pure and holy God, as destitute debtors before the One to Whom we owe all. We are all dead to God.

In the accounts of Purgatory, often the worst sinner is saved by God’s boundless mercy at the moment of death due to the sinners strong desire to be with God - knowing the major failings of his life. God then saves the sinner into Purgatory where he may pay the penalty for sin – Christ having paid the price for the soul.

flameburns623:

God, of His own sovereign and free will, under no compulsion or obligation, and based in no wise upon any virtue or loveliness in us, without any respect of our persons, station, or worthiness, for purposes and reasons of His own, chooses and elects some of us to salvation. He alone makes us alive through Christ’s atonement. He alone acts to enable us to desire Him. He alone gives us the saving faith in Christ by which we are saved. He alone sanctifies us. He alone preserves us unto Him. He places in us His Holy Spirit Who causes us to hate and abhor the works of the flesh to which we are ever throughout life tempted, and Who exhorts and enables us to works pleasing to God. The Elect will stand before God as sinners clothed not in their own righteousness, which will ever be ‘as filthy rags’; but clothed instead in the righteousness of Christ their Redeemer.

God has chosen to grant each soul the free will to turn toward him or away from him. John 6:66. Given free will we have the ability to scantify ourselves in remarkable ways and to an awesome extent in the context of this world and even the next. We are made new in Him.

flameburns623:

The Christian will come before the throne of God ‘simil justus et pecatur’–‘at the same time, just and sinner’. The notion that a person can, in this life, perfect themselves and so ‘merit’ admission to Heaven or somehow ‘sanctify’ themselves into a special state of personal holiness is a heresy known as ‘perfectionism’. It denies the grace of God. It denies the completeness and perfection of Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross. It attributes to human bengs what is God’s prerogative alone. Purgatory both presupposes and underpins this heresy, and is therefore rejected by Protestants.

This is where the Protestants suffer due to lack of the sacrament of confession. The confessional acts to forgive us and release us from the burden of sin. Outside of the confessional we complete our penance out of a call to holiness. This peneance is well received by God and compels him to grant us mercy and grace.

flameburns623:

In Protestant theology there is sometimes a corrolary to the notion of Purgatory. It is called the ‘judgement of the Believer’s works’, and is usually believed to occur at the Second Coming. Note that all believers are received directly and immediately at death into the Presence of God and into the joy of His Kingdom. At the Second Coming, however, there is thought by many to be an evaluation of the works of each believer: commendation to the valiant one, rebuke for the carnal or neglectful. This is scarcely a ‘purgation’, since the believer is ALREADY in the Presence of God, and since the believer is not made ‘more’ or ‘less’ sanctified by this judgement. This IS what is described in I Corinthians 3:12-15, so often cited in favor of purgatory.

No one will stand for long in the presence of God without seeking to cleanse himself of his dirty sin. Jesus will willingly offer to cleanse us but we will see Purgatory and beg to be purified by its fires.

 

[Scapular]

flameburns623:

A head’s up: we only get one God to choose from. And He has to choose us first.

God desires that all souls return to him.

The Creator has no benefit from the created if the created do not have free will. The Creator might well have made soulless robots if free will is not active in this world.

Interesting that this discussion on Purgatory has lead to a discussion on sanctification and finally free will. The protestants should now be able to see that Purgatory exists because free will exists.

If free will does not exist then there is no need for the Passion of Christ, the scantification of His Church, or the purification of souls in Purgatory.

If free will does exist then we need a way to choose God, to draw nearer to him, to join with him, and finally to be purified to merit eternal life in his presence.

 

[Luke24]

Don’t you find it strange that the word “catholic” isn’t even in the Bible?
The body of Christ is the Church and yes the new organism was from the Jews; John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. You missed on the next statement though because the Rock is Christ. 1 Corinthians 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Psalms 78:35-37 And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer. Nevertheless they did flatter him with their mouth, and they lied unto him with their tongues. For their heart was not right with him, neither were they stedfast in his covenant. The belief that Peter was the first pope is wrong since there were no popes until the fifth century, and then the trouble really starts.
Since this post is supposed to be about pertgatory let me use the Bible as our source. What says the Word of God? The word “pergatory” is not found in the Holy Bible. There is much teaching on what happens when we die though.
Luke 16:19-31 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
1Sa 25:36; Ps 49:14; Eze 28:24; Mal 3:18; 2Th 1:4-10; Jas 1:11-12; 5:1-7; Ps 50:22; Mt 25:46; Joh 3:36; 2Th 1:9; Re 20:10; 22:11

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: Ge 3:19; 2Sa 14:14; Job 14:5; 30:23; Ps 89:48; Ec 3:20; 9:5; 12:7; Ro 5:12; Heb 6:2; Job 19:25; Ec 11:9; 12:14; Mt 25:31-46; Joh 5:26-29; Ac 17:31; Ro 2:5; 14:9-12; 1Co 4:5; 2Co 5:10; 2Ti 4:1; Jude 1:15; Re 20:11
Hebrews 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. :yup:
In Christ,
Luke24

 

[MariaG]

The word Trinity is nowhere in the Bible either. Does that mean the Bible did not talk about the Holy Trinity because that word is not used?
P.S.
Look about 100 years into Christianity, and you’ll find the word Catholic .

 

[Luke24]

I have read the History of the Christian Church and do know that the early Christians were not catholics in the sense you claim today. Their heretical teachings and the forged documents attest to that. My, my what you guys go through to defend paganism and heresy.
As for a passage that negates your man made teaching of pergatory check out the Word of God. Luke 16:9-31
MariaG made a comment in a previous post about Mat 5:48; James 3:2; and Rev 21:27. She is right that nothing unclean will enter heaven however, 1 John 1:1-9 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Psalms 103:8-14 The LORD is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and plenteous in mercy. He will not always chide: neither will he keep his anger for ever. He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities. For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him. As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us. Like as a father pitieth his children, so the LORD pitieth them that fear him. For he knoweth our frame; he remembereth that we are dust.
Revelation 1:5-6 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
2 Corinthians 5:5-10 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. This is not pergatory! This is the judgement seat of Christ in heaven which all true believers will receive rewards or lose rewards. This judgement does not affect our salvation.
Romans 8:38-39 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Galatians 1:6-10 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed**.** For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

 

[Michael_F]

As a new Catholic, I’ve spent a lot of time thinking over the various “non-Protestant” doctrines, including the doctrine of purgatory, and what follows below is the result of those meditations:

I grew up in a very strict, devout protestant home. The theological underpinning of the church I grew up in was not quite Calvinistic and not quite Arminian - a pastor told me that we were “both,” which was a little confusing. At any rate, we believed in the typical evangelical idea of being “born again.” We also thoroughly believed that the process of the new birth included an infusion of God’s grace so that we were “new creatures” in Christ. We also believed that salvation could be lost due to sin and unholy living.

Now, this last nugget of doctrine opened a can of worms. “What would happen,” I asked my father one day, “if a Christian person died with one unconfessed sin in his life? Or what if that person has no time to repent?” To my father, the answer was pretty clear-cut: that person would go straight to hell regardless of his previous relationship with Christ. You can’t enter the gates of heaven with any stain at all on your life.

My own belief, as I grew older, was that God would judge that person with one unconfessed sin according to the overall tenor of his life, in a merciful fashion. I had no Scripture or any other authority for that, though it seemed as if my father DID have various verses on HIS side. That was kind of troubling.

When I began to take a good look at Catholicism, it seemed as if there was, after all, a middle path that no one had offered to me before: purgatory. In the concept of purgatory, the God of judgment and the God of mercy met.

I knew that in the century or so before Christ, the Jews developed a sense of this middle path. Thus we find prayers for the dead offered in 2 Maccabees. In the gospels we read about “Abraham’s bosom,” which is definitely not heaven, but not hell either. And of course we are not told that the rich man of the story was in hell, but in “hades” - usually a much broader term. Add to that the fact that the rich man is spoken of as one of Abraham’s dear children, and you really have an enigma on your hands for a protestant. Then leap ahead to Tertullian in the second century A.D., and he is recommending (a la Maccabees) prayer for the dead. Evidently, the holy people immediately before and after Christ prayed for the dead. In the Lazarus parable, Christ Himself indicated a place (as protestants we always called it “the upper compartment of hell”) that certainly wasn’t hell, but which wasn’t the bliss of heaven either.

As a protestant, I believed that Abraham’s bosom was emptied of its Old Testament saints and was disposed of by Christ at some point during Easter, going back to Paul’s Epistle to the Ephesians and the phrase in chapter four about “leading captivity captive.” Now the Catholic Church was asking me to believe something incredible - that this middle state was alive and well and was still being used by God to bring His children home - not because they were not “saved,” but because they were not sufficiently holy enough to come face-to-face with the blazing, fiery brilliance of God’s own holiness.

Perhaps the concept of purgatory still doesn’t make a lot of sense to some people, but it came to me as a real answer - something between the strict judgmentalsim of my Dad’s approach and my own rather wishy-washy solution.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

flameburns623:

The doctrines of Augustine and Calvin do indeed cut harshly against our human nature. We want so earnestly to be able to claim some part of the credit for our own salvation. Your reaction is the stereotypical one of the unregenerate soul. If you really meant your concluding remark, you probably aren’t one of God’s to begin with. No offense intended, please, it’s simply part-and-parcel of the theolgy of the position, and not intended as a personal slight. On the other hand, mebbe a bit more study of the topic would help.

No offence intended but I know enough from my studies of the ultra-calvinist position to say that I so thoroughly detest the god which this theology has created that I believe it is not the God of the Christians but a reincarnation of the pre-Christian god of Fate. I certainly do nto want to be one of this god’s elect! I weep, literally, for people who believe in him.

It is interesting that the Catholic author Chesterton came to the same opinion of the ultra-calvinist teaching and wrote a little essay on it. If I can find it on the Net, I’ll post the link.

Fr Ambrose

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Fr Ambrose:

It is interesting that the Catholic author Chesterton came to the same opinion of the ultra-calvinist teaching and wrote a little essay on it. If I can find it on the Net, I’ll post the link.

Firstly, apologies to Hilaire Belloc because it was he and not Chesterton who wrote was I was thinking of. It’s easy to confuse these two great Catholic writers.

Secondly, this does link in with the reasons that Calvinists reject purgatory.

Thirdly, dear Flameburns, I want to say that I don’t question your love of God, but your understanding.

Somewhere deep in the visceral part of me, I know that I can never love the God of the hyper-calvinists and the TULIP system. And in fact I have a strong aversion to him.

So what do you think? DO we have the same God?

Is it possible that the differences in theology (our conceptualisation of God, the salvation of the elect irrespective of their sins, the damnation of the non-elect, again irrespective of their personal goodness or their sins) and also in anthropology(total depravity, etc.) are so disparate that something utterly new was introduced by Calvin? Can traditional Christianity and hyper-Calvinism be reconciled?

Hilaire Belloc, in the essay I mentioned earlier, answers in the negative - the God of Calvin is not the Christian God, and I will just reproduce its more insightful paragraphs:

"…What Calvin did was this. He took what is one of the oldest and
most perilous directives of mankind, the sense of Fate. He isolated it,
and he made it supreme, by fitting it with the kneading of a powerful
mind, into the scheme which Christian men still traditionally associated with the holiness and authority of their ancestral religion.

"… God had become Man, and God had become Man to redeem mankind. That was no part of the old idea of Inevitable Fate. On the contrary, it was a relief from that pagan nightmare. We of the Faith say that the Incarnation was intended to release us from such a pagan nightmare. Well, Calvin accepted the Incarnation, but he forced it to fit in with the old pagan horror of compulsion: “Ananke.” **He reintroduced the Inexorable.
**
“… Yes, [Calvin teaches that] God had become Man and had died to save mankind; *but *only mankind in such numbers and persons as he had chosen to act for. The idea of the Inexorable remained. The merits of Christ were imputed, and no more. God was Causation, and Causation is one immutable whole. A man was damned or saved; and it was not of his doing. The recognition of evil as equal with good, which rapidly becomes the worship of evil (the great Manichean heresy, which has roots as old as mankind; the permanent motive of Fear) was put forward by Calvin in a strange new form. He did not indeed oppose, as had the Manichean, two equal principles of Good
and of Evil. He put forward only one principle, God. But to that One
Principle he ascribed all our suffering, and, for most of us, necessary
and eternal suffering.”

Belloc’s essay on Calvin is here and the whole thing is well worth the read:
freerepublic.com/forum/a39eba91950c3.htm

If Belloc is right, then Calvin created a God which is not the Biblical
one, but a return to an older concept of divinity- the God of Fate, the
God of the Inexorable against whom there is no appeal. All is
predetermined, predestined. Fate rules again, as it did in most of the
belief systems of the pagan world.

Fr Ambrose

---

 

[Scapular]

Luke24:

Luke 16:19-31 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Luke24,

You could ask yourself the following:

1. “Where is Abraham’s bosom?”
2. “Where did the souls in Abraham’s bosom go after the Passion of Christ?”

The answer has a great deal to do with Purgatory.

**

 

[Scapular]

Luke24:

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. This is not pergatory! This is the judgement seat of Christ in heaven which all true believers will receive rewards or lose rewards. This judgement does not affect our salvation.

Luke 24,

There are a couple of points here that may help:

1. “…things done in his body…” this is important because prior Protestant posts claimed that sanctification on this earth had no meaning, that the blood of Our Lord covers all. Now, in your quote above we see that the “things done in his body” matter at the day of judgement – according to that he hath done.
2. “*This judgement does not affect our salvation.” *For those in Christ indeed. For those in Christ, the judgement only affects the time spent in Purgatory. For those NOT in Christ the judgement finalizes eternal punsihment.

 

[jimmy]

Fr Ambrose:

Thirdly, dear Flameburns, I want to say that I don’t question your love of God, but your understanding.
Somewhere deep in the visceral part of me, I know that I can never love the God of the hyper-calvinists and the TULIP system. And in fact I have a strong aversion to him.
So what do you think? DO we have the same God?
Is it possible that the differences in theology (our conceptualisation of God, the salvation of the elect irrespective of their sins, the damnation of the non-elect, again irrespective of their personal goodness or their sins) and also in anthropology(total depravity, etc.) are so disparate that something utterly new was introduced by Calvin? Can traditional Christianity and hyper-Calvinism be reconciled?
Hilaire Belloc, in the essay I mentioned earlier, answers in the negative - the God of Calvin is not the Christian God, and I will just reproduce its more insightful paragraphs:
"…What Calvin did was this. He took what is one of the oldest and
most perilous directives of mankind, the sense of Fate. He isolated it,
and he made it supreme, by fitting it with the kneading of a powerful
mind, into the scheme which Christian men still traditionally associated with the holiness and authority of their ancestral religion.

"… God had become Man, and God had become Man to redeem mankind. That was no part of the old idea of Inevitable Fate. On the contrary, it was a relief from that pagan nightmare. We of the Faith say that the Incarnation was intended to release us from such a pagan nightmare. Well, Calvin accepted the Incarnation, but he forced it to fit in with the old pagan horror of compulsion: “Ananke.” He reintroduced the Inexorable.

“… Yes, [Calvin teaches that] God had become Man and had died to save mankind; *but *only mankind in such numbers and persons as he had chosen to act for. The idea of the Inexorable remained. The merits of Christ were imputed, and no more. God was Causation, and Causation is one immutable whole. A man was damned or saved; and it was not of his doing. The recognition of evil as equal with good, which rapidly becomes the worship of evil (the great Manichean heresy, which has roots as old as mankind; the permanent motive of Fear) was put forward by Calvin in a strange new form. He did not indeed oppose, as had the Manichean, two equal principles of Good
and of Evil. He put forward only one principle, God. But to that One
Principle he ascribed all our suffering, and, for most of us, necessary
and eternal suffering.”

Belloc’s essay on Calvin is here and the whole thing is well worth the read:
freerepublic.com/forum/a39eba91950c3.htm

If Belloc is right, then Calvin created a God which is not the Biblical
one, but a return to an older concept of divinity- the God of Fate, the
God of the Inexorable against whom there is no appeal. All is
predetermined, predestined. Fate rules again, as it did in most of the
belief systems of the pagan world.

Fr Ambrose

Fr. Ambrose

I agree with you on the whole post and I think that is a great quote.
I was wondering what the TULIP system is, I have never heard of it.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

jimmy:

I was wondering what the TULIP system is, I have never heard of it.

The Five Points of Calvinism
T.U.L.I.P

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Calvinism is known by an acronym: T.U.L.I.P.
Total Depravity
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the Saints

  These five categories do not comprise Calvinism in totality. They simply represent some of its main points. 

  **Total Depravity:** 
  Sin has affected all parts of man. The heart, emotions, will, mind, and body are all affected by sin. We are completely sinful. 
  The doctrine of Total Depravity is derived from scriptures that reveal human character. 
  The Calvinist asks the question, "In light of the scriptures that declare man’s true nature as being utterly lost and incapable, how is it possible for anyone to choose or desire God?" The answer is, "He cannot. Therefore God must predestine." 

 
**  Unconditional Election:**
 God does not base his election to salvation or his reprobation to damnation on anything he sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the sovereign intention of his will without any consideration of merit within the individual, either good or bad. This means that God could choose your wife for salvation but he could decide not to choose you and so you are damned.  Since we are all in a state of total depravity and entirely deserving of hell, we should simply be grateful that God chooses to save some of us.



 ** Limited Atonement:**
 Jesus died only for the elect. Though Jesus’ sacrifice was sufficient for all, it was not efficacious for all. Jesus only bore the sins of the elect and not for all of mankind.


**  Irresistible Grace:**
 When God calls his elect into salvation, they cannot resist. 


 ** Perseverance of the Saints:** 
 You cannot lose your salvation. Because the Father has elected, the Son has redeemed, and the Holy Spirit has applied salvation, those thus saved are eternally secure.  This is often called "once saved, always saved."

 

[flameburns623]

Some sundry quotes from various posts by Fr. Amrose:

. . . . Ah, Flameburns623, if I ever thought that Calvin and the cruel teachings of TULIP were remotely connected with the teachings of our dear Lord Jesus Christ, I would be obliged to renounce Christianity and set out on the search for God and truth . . . .

. . . . . Somewhere deep in the visceral part of me, I know that I can never love the God of the hyper-calvinists and the TULIP system. And in fact I have a strong aversion to him.

So what do you think? DO we have the same God? . . . .

. . . . . No offence intended but I know enough from my studies of the ultra-calvinist position to say that I so thoroughly detest the god which this theology has created that I believe it is not the God of the Christians but a reincarnation of the pre-Christian god of Fate. I certainly do not want to be one of this god’s elect! I weep, literally, for people who believe in him.

Interesting argumentation here. Could a Universalist not employ it against traditional Christianity? An atheist against theism generally?

I should note: I started out an Arminian and reacted viscerally to even the ‘moderate’ Calvinism most-extant in Evangelical circles–what is sometimes called “whiskey Calvinism” because it stresses only the fifth major precept of Calvinism–the preservation of the Saints (one-fifth Calvinism–as in a ‘fifth of whiskey’–get it? ). This made the semi-Pelagianism/Pelagianism of Mormonism rather appealing to me. Even after shucking Mormonism I often felt the same sort of emotional response you are offering to what is truly NOT the horrendous doctrine you conceive it to be. It takes a while to overcome this. Sociology and philosphy train one to try to look past one’s inbred biases and actually see things ‘from the inside out’ of another’s viewpoint. Tough work, really. And risky: sociologists and anthropologists ‘go native’ with no small degree of frequency. Philosphers–and I suspect, theologians–get converted.

Ultimately, Fr. Ambrose, your bias against this position betrays a fundamental distrust in the God of the Bible Who has declared He cannot lie (Hebrews 6: 18, Numbers 23:19). He Who has said this has also declared that He is good (Psalms 31:19) a righteous Judge (Deuteronomy 32:4), a God of Love (I John 4: 8, 16), wise, (Acts 15: 18) and unsearchable in all His ways (Romans 11:33-34). We can therefore put absolute trust in His plan for us, even where we do not understand Him.

By the way: I thought Christianity was monotheistic. You keep suggesting that you would prefer “another God” to mine. Which other God were you considering–keeping in mind that we each presuppose there to be only one? See Galatians 4: 8, II Chronicles 13:9.

TO BE CONTINUED

 

[flameburns623]

On the TULIP acronym: The “T” is sometimes also used to signify “Total Inability”; the “P” to signify “Preservation of the Saints”. These slight revisions are meant to show more perfectly that it is God Who is the Actor in salvation, and not human beings.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

flameburns623:

By the way: I thought Christianity was monotheistic. You keep suggesting that you would prefer “another God” to mine. Which other God were you considering–keeping in mind that we each presuppose there to be only one? See Galatians 4: 8, II Chronicles 13:9.

I agree with Belloc that Calvin created another God than the Christian God. Hyper-calvinism preaches a God whose love is both restricted and fickle. Looking upon the great mass of humanity which is burdened with Total Depravity and worthy only of hell, this God exercises his sovereign will and makes arbitrary decisions to save those whom he elects and to damn those whom he decides to reprobate to damnation. This is not the God of the Christians. I cannot tell from your messages if this is your personal belief; it is rare to find people these days who accept this form of hyper-calvinism. The Orthodox Presbyterians come to mind.

To the true God who desires all men to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4) glory and honour forever.