Why do Catholics believe in Purgatory and Protestants do not?

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Fr Ambrose:
I believe it is not the God of the Christians but a reincarnation of the pre-Christian god of Fate.
Nice try but that position has been suggested before. R.K. McGregor Wright actually goes to some pains to respond to it. He actually links the position of freewill theism to humanism, rationalism, and naturalism. He argues that it is the ignorance of a consistent Calvinism and the tendency to attack ‘straw men’ instead of the real positions of Calvinists which underpins this claim. He points out that virtually no one who criticises Calvinism ever bothers to read anything about it beyond a few items by Calvin and Augustine.

Dr. Robert Morey, in “Studies in the Atonement” argues quite forcefully that a rejection of predestination is ultimately antitrinitarian and leads logically to both universalism and unitarianism. (See “Studies in the Atonement”, pages 59-60, as well as his preliminary comments on the character of God, pages 9-16).
 
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flameburns623:
Nice try but that position has been suggested before. R.K. McGregor Wright actually goes to some pains to respond to it. He actually links the position of freewill theism to humanism, rationalism, and naturalism. He argues that it is the ignorance of a consistent Calvinism and the tendency to attack ‘straw men’ instead of the real positions of Calvinists which underpins this claim
Dear Flameburns,

Of course it has been suggested before. People want answers to things which trouble them.

I hope you do not mind if I am going to ask a personal question or two. I would like to bring this out of the ivory towers and into the world of reality, the world of life and death.

Calvinism of the TULIP strain teaches that God elects and God damns as he chooses, with no regard for the personal state of the human being. The person who has striven to live in holiness all her life may be damned all the same, simply because God has chosen to leave her in reprobation and all her good works are counted for nothing. They are but menstrual rags (as the Psalm says.)

So may I ask: Are you of the elect? If yes, how do you know this?

Is your spouse among the elect? Or is he or she already consigned to the infernal pit? Your parents? Your children? Are they among the reprobate, those whom God has decided not to rescue from total depravity but to send to hell?
 
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Scapular:
God desires that all souls return to him.

The Creator has no benefit from the created if the created do not have free will. The Creator might well have made soulless robots if free will is not active in this world.

Interesting that this discussion on Purgatory has lead to a discussion on sanctification and finally free will. The protestants should now be able to see that Purgatory exists because free will exists.

If free will does not exist then there is no need for the Passion of Christ, the scantification of His Church, or the purification of souls in Purgatory.

If free will does exist then we need a way to choose God, to draw nearer to him, to join with him, and finally to be purified to merit eternal life in his presence.
Scapular: Your first error is that of universalism. God is omnipotent and absolutely sovereign,. His will cannot be thwarted. If He desires ‘all men to return to Him’ they will absolutely do so. You just joined the ranks of Origen, who in his last days suggested that even Satan would be ultimately reunited with God.

God most certainly does NOT will all human beings to return to Him: this is a misuse of the word ‘all’. Employed in context, the word ‘all’ is found more often than not to refer to “some of all kinds” “all of a set or a group”, etcetera. One must employ context to get the proper meaning of the text. The fourth and last part of John Owen’s “The Death of Death in the Death of Christ” is an exhaustive treatment of verses employed regularly by free-will advocates. Both Wright (“No Place for Sovereignty”, pages 155-175) and Morey ("Studies in the Atonement, pages 71-74) give brief overviews of the issue.

God appoints the wicked to destruction: Proverbs 16:4. He shows favor to those He chooses and withoholds it from those He chooses–NOT capriciously nor unjustly but for reasons and purposes of His own, having nought to do with the choices or behavior of sinful human beings, collectively or individually: Jude 1:4, Romans 9: 6-23, Acts 13:48, John12:39-40, John 10: 11-16, 26, Mark 4:11-12, Matthew 11:25-27).

I’ll have to use one last post to respond to your last point, Scapular.
 
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Scapular:
If free will does not exist then there is no need for the Passion of Christ, the sanctification of His Church, or the purification of souls in Purgatory.

If free will does exist then we need a way to choose God, to draw nearer to him, to join with him, and finally to be purified to merit eternal life in his presence.
Morey’s “Studies in the Atonement” is in large part designed to respond to this objection. Essentially, on pages 6-9 he shows that the Biblical position is that God was not obliged to save anyone, His free choice to save some made the Atonement necessary. He defines this on page 9 as follows:

“Once God freely decided out of His sovereign electing love to save sinners, there was but one way of bringing about this desired salvation which would be in harmony with God’s character, the law of God, the nature of sin, and the needs of man. This one way was by the substitutionary blood atonement of the incarnate Son of God”

RK MCGregor Wright offers bibliographies of suggested writings on this topic, too numerous to list here. Morey offers a much shorter list of some of the more basic writings which go largely unread and unresponded-to by those who ‘think’ they know what Calvinism is and leap to refute it. See;

“The Cause of God and Truth”, Dr. John Gill
“The Death of Death in the Death of Christ”, Dr. John Owen
“The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination”, Lorraine Boettner
“The Atonement”, A.W. Pink
“The Atonement”, A.A. Hodge
“The Atonement of Christ”, Turrettin
“The Atonement According to Christ and the Apostles”, Smeaton.

Finally:
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Scapular:
Interesting that this discussion on Purgatory has lead to a discussion on sanctification and finally free will.
Yep. That’s how we got here from there. Thanks for reminding us all what the thread was supposed to be about.
 
flameburns623 said:
“Once God freely decided out of His sovereign electing love to save sinners, there was but one way of bringing about this desired salvation which would be in harmony with God’s character, the law of God, the nature of sin, and the needs of man. This one way was by the substitutionary blood atonement of the incarnate Son of God”

Substitutionary atonement, or blood atonement - one of the most unusual and non scriptural theories that man’s limited mind ever devised to explain why God became man. It’s a theory restricted to the Western world, and unknown to early Christians and quite unknown in the East.

Now I’ll be in hot water with everybody on the Forum :o
 
flameburns623 said:
“Once God freely decided out of His sovereign electing love to save sinners, there was but one way of bringing about this desired salvation which would be in harmony with God’s character, the law of God, the nature of sin, and the needs of man. This one way was by the substitutionary blood atonement of the incarnate Son of God”

Here is a piece on the theory of substutionary atonement from someone who could be considered a popular theologian for contemporary Orthodox, Frederica Matthewes-Green who is an American and married to an Orthodox priest.

From Frederice Matthewes-Green:

Many of my correspondents don’t know this history [of the notions of soteriology in the Early Middle Ages and earlier] and insist instead that the Blood Atonement theory is the earliest. It just isn’t so. They believe this because they find evidence for it in the Scriptures, but as I’ve said, this is a matter of your favorite Scriptures lighting up for you, in accord with how you’ve been taught.

The appearance in history of the Blood Atonement, or Substitutionary, theory can actually be located pretty precisely, in the work “Cur Deus Homo?” (“Why Did God Become Man?”) by Anselm, Bishop of Canterbury, in the 11th century. Anselm’s idea is foreshadowed in some earlier writers, like Tertullian, but it was not the general view.

The general view of the early church was not as crisp, as thorough, as Anselm’s. And this is why Catholic and Protestant theologians have seen Anselm’s theory as a great advance. Henry Bettenson, in his anthology
“Documents of the Christian Church,” calls “Cur Deus Homo,” “one of the few books that can truly be called epoch-making.”

Catholic and Protestants have never claimed that Anselm’s Blood-Atonement theory is the earliest; they’ve said it is the best. It was a breakthrough. That implies something else came before.

Anselm’s theory, as we know, is that our sins create an overwhelming offense against God’s honor, a debt. God cannot merely excuse this offense and wipe the debt away, because it constitutes an objective wrong in the universe;
justice would be knocked out of balance. There must be punishment.

Anselm: “Let us consider whether God could properly remit sin by mercy alone without satisfaction. So to remit sin would be simply to abstain from punishing it. And since the only possible way of correcting sin, for which no satisfaction has been made, is to punish it, not to punish it is to remit it uncorrected. But God cannot properly leave anything uncorrected in his kingdom. Moreover, to remit sin unpunished would be treating the sinful and sinless alike, which would be incongruous to God’s nature. And incongruity
is injustice. It is necessary, therefore, that either the honor taken away should be repaid, or punishment should be inflicted.”

He goes on to say that “no sinner can make” complete satisfaction for sin. “None can make this satisfaction except God. And none ought to make it except man…One must make it who is both God and man.”

Because Christ did not deserve to suffer for us, but paid the debt voluntarily, he “ought not to be without reward…If the Son chose to make over the claim he had on God to man, could the Father justly forbid him doing so, or refuse to man what the Son willed to give him?”

I think most of you will recognize this. It is the standard view of traditional Catholics and Protestants.

Because of this, conservative Christians in the West are disposed to see any attack on the Substitutionary theory as a move toward liberalism.

That is not so. There is a whole third viewpoint, which prevailed throughout the first millennium, and continues outside Western Christianity today among the Orthodox Christians of the East.

frederica.com/
 
FrAmbrose:
Calvinism of the TULIP strain teaches that God elects and God damns as he chooses, with no regard for the personal state of the human being. The person who has striven to live in holiness all her life may be damned all the same, simply because God has chosen to leave her in reprobation and all her good works are counted for nothing. They are but menstrual rags (as the Psalm says.)

So may I ask: Are you of the elect? If yes, how do you know this?
The chief evidence of salvation is the response of the individual to the Gospel Call. Holiness is an evidence of salvation. Conversion is an evidence of salvation. However, one can clearly deceive and/or be self-deceived about one’s own salvation, and even more so about the salvation of others. Morey tackles this issue in considerable detail in Studies in the Atonement, pages 199-212. I can only give a brief overview here. He bases his explanation, in part, on the following translation of John 3:16:

For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son that whoever is believing (right now, in the present tense) in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

It is not past decisions which provide true assurance; one’s assurance must be based upon the present condition and commitment of one’s faith. It is not “when” did one accept Christ but "what evidence is there in one’s life today–right now–that leads one to believe one is truly saved. This response excludes ‘easy believism’ and ‘decisionism’. It is not negated by the presence of sin in one’s life–no one can say they are without sin (I John 1:8-10). It does suggest that one who is not purposefully seeking to conform his life to God’s Law in Christ, living a life of abandoment to sin, is not and has never been saved: I John 2:4, 3:6, 3:8, 2: 19). Beyond this, the emotional focus of one’s life, inspired by the Holy Spirit and by love testify that one is of the Elect. (I John 2:10, 2:15, 3:11, 3:14, 4:7, 4:11, 4:12, 4:16, 4:21, 5:1).

It is by these things and by the testimony of the Holy Spirit that I affirm myself to be of the Elect. Of the election and calling of others I cannot be certain but they are and remain ever objects of my prayers and ministry.

Have we flogged this dog to death yet?
 
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flameburns623:
It is not past decisions which provide true assurance; one’s assurance must be based upon the present condition and commitment of one’s faith. It is not “when” did one accept Christ but "what evidence is there in one’s life today–right now–that leads one to believe one is truly saved. This response excludes ‘easy believism’ and ‘decisionism’. It is not negated by the presence of sin in one’s life–no one can say they are without sin (I John 1:8-10). It does suggest that one who is not purposefully seeking to conform his life to God’s Law in Christ, living a life of abandoment to sin, is not and has never been saved: I John 2:4, 3:6, 3:8, 2: 19). Beyond this, the emotional focus of one’s life, inspired by the Holy Spirit and by love testify that one is of the Elect. (I John 2:10, 2:15, 3:11, 3:14, 4:7, 4:11, 4:12, 4:16, 4:21, 5:1).

It is by these things and by the testimony of the Holy Spirit that I affirm myself to be of the Elect. Of the election and calling of others I cannot be certain but they are and remain ever objects of my prayers and ministry.
As a matter of curiosity, I was wondering which of the following you would agree or disagree with and why. Please consider responding.
  1. That men are justified, either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ, or by the sole remission of sins, to the exclusion of the grace and the charity which is poured forth in their hearts by the Holy Ghost, and is inherent in them; or even that the grace, whereby we are justified, is only the favour of God.
  2. That justifying faith is nothing else but confidence in the divine mercy which remits sins for Christ’s sake; or, that this confidence alone is that whereby we are justified.
  3. That it is necessary for every one, for the obtaining the remission of sins, that he believe for certain, and without any wavering arising from his own infirmity and disposition, that his sins are forgiven him.
  4. That man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because that he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected.
  5. That a man, who is born again and justified, is bound of faith to believe that he is assuredly in the number of the predestinate.
  6. That a man can say for certain, of an absolute and infallible certainty, that he will have that great gift of perseverance unto the end,-unless he have learned this by special revelation.
  7. That the commandments of God are, even for one that is justified and constituted in grace, impossible to keep.
Thank you,
Justin
 
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flameburns623:
Have we flogged this dog to death yet?
I wish we could! I wish we could obliterate it from the face of the earth.

“Hence it is, that in the present day so many dogs tear this doctrine with envenomed teeth, or, at least, assail it with their bark, refusing to give more license to God than their own reason dictates to themselves.”

Are you familiar with Calvin’s own admission (in the “Institutes”) that the doctrines contained in TULIP are so hateful to mankind that he is not surprised that we rail against them and reject them in horror? Calvin says that he himself rebelled against these doctrines, but it is truth and must be accepted

Anyway, thank you for your responses. I find this topic so distressing that I would be happy to leave off flogging the dog. The one consolation is that very few people these days believe in this form of Calvinism.
 
Fr Ambrose:
So may I ask: Are you of the elect? If yes, how do you know this?

Is your spouse among the elect? Or is he or she already consigned to the infernal pit? Your parents? Your children? Are they among the reprobate, those whom God has decided not to rescue from total depravity but to send to hell?
Ain’t it interesting that the folks who believe strongest in predestination are convinced that THEY have been predestined to heaven? 😉

G.K Chesterton had some colorful comments about predestination These two quotes are from his book “Whats Wrong with the World:”
The (calvinistic) idea that one a man is born it is too late to damn him or save him is the last lie in hell.
and:
The difference between Purtianism and Catholicism is not about whether some priestly word or gesture is sacred and significant and sacred. It is about whether any word or gesture is significant and sacred. To the Catholic every other daily act is a dramatic dedication to the service of good or of evil. To the Calvinist, no act can have that sort of solemnity, because the person doing it has been dedicated from eternity, and is merely filling up his time until the crack of doom. The difference is something subtler than plum pudding or private theatricals; the difference is that to a Christian of my kind this sort of earthly life is intensely thrilling and precious; to a Calvinist…it is confessedly automatic and uninteresting. To me, these three-score years and ten are the battle, to the Calvinist they are only a long procession of the victors and vanquished in chains. To me the earthly life is the drama, to him it is the epilogue.
 
Fr Ambrose and flameburns623,

Let me try to translate your high-level discussion.

For the Protestant there is no need for Purgatory and further that God has no use for Purgatory because Christ’s sacrifice was perfect and delivers the elect directly to heaven.

For the Catholic the stain of sin remains until expiated in this life or in Purgatory through penance or indulgence. Here Christ’s sacrifice is effective toward eternal salvation but His additional intercession is required to find relief from the fires of Purgatory.

Did I get this right???

If so then I still have a question - please answer in simple terms.

For the Protestant to be convincing (toward me) he needs to explain why I should “go and sin no more” according to Christ and further to seek to imitate Christ, to “put on the new man”, and to join with him in his suffering according to St. Paul?

What does holiness gain the Protestant if it has no influence on salvation?

Many thanks,
 
Scapular said:
Fr Ambrose and flameburns623,
What does holiness gain the Protestant if it has no influence on salvation?

OK, sticking with the context of the hyper-calvinism which Flameburns (I hope that this pseudonym is not prophetic!) seems to believe…

Holiness means nothing. God has, from all eternity, elected a limited number of people for salvation. He clothes these people in Christ’s righteousness. They still remain the most dreadful sinners but Christ’s righteousness is now draped around their shoulders like a cloak. This is known as “imputed righteousness.” Holiness doesn’t come into it.

Calvin teaches: "There is no doubt that it is entirely by the intervention of Christ’s righteousness that we obtain justification before God. This is equivalent to saying that man is not just in himself, but that the righteousness of Christ is communicated to him by imputation, when really he deserves punishment. So we can dismiss the absurd dogma that man is justified by faith because it brings him under the influence of God’s spirit, by whom the sinner is made righteous.” “Institutes of Christian Religion” Book 3, Chapter 11

It is interesting that Calvin’s belief in predestination and his rejection of free will is so strong that it even compels him to label justification by faith as an absurd doctrine.
 
Fr Ambrose:
OK, sticking with the context of the hyper-calvinism which Flameburns (I hope that this pseudonym is not prophetic!) seems to believe…

Holiness means nothing. God has, from all eternity, elected a limited number of people for salvation. He clothes these people in Christ’s righteousness. They still remain the most dreadful sinners but Christ’s righteousness is now draped around their shoulders like a cloak. This is known as “imputed righteousness.” Holiness doesn’t come into it.

Calvin teaches: "There is no doubt that it is entirely by the intervention of Christ’s righteousness that we obtain justification before God. This is equivalent to saying that man is not just in himself, but that the righteousness of Christ is communicated to him by imputation, when really he deserves punishment. So we can dismiss the absurd dogma that man is justified by faith because it brings him under the influence of God’s spirit, by whom the sinner is made righteous.” “Institutes of Christian Religion” Book 3, Chapter 11

It is interesting that Calvin’s belief in predestination and his rejection of free will is so strong that it even compels him to label justification by faith as an absurd doctrine.
It sounds almost like it is a mix with Aetheism. Thanks for the explanation of the tulip.
 
Scapular said:
Fr Ambrose and flameburns623,

For the Protestant to be convincing (toward me) he needs to explain why I should “go and sin no more” according to Christ and further to seek to imitate Christ, to “put on the new man”, and to join with him in his suffering according to St. Paul?

What does holiness gain the Protestant if it has no influence on salvation?

Many thanks,

A person who declines to endeavor to live a holy life shows evidence by his/her deeds that s/he is not/never was one of the elect.

Holiness comes NOT from the individual but from the sanctifying work of God by His Holy Spirit working in the spirit of His elect. The elect may sin, but they will show an aversion to it and a marked inclination to sin ever less as time elapses.

And the screen name is a pun on my real name, thank you much. And the street numbers of my address at the time I first went online.
 
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flameburns623:
A person who declines to endeavor to live a holy life shows evidence by his/her deeds that s/he is not/never was one of the elect.
It happens that it does not always work that neatly. It can breed despair and rebellion against God. Which of the famous composers was it who died in despair belieiving that he had not been chosen for salvation? Mozart?

Robbie Burns’s wrote a bit of a parody Calvinism in his “Holy Willie’s Prayer”:
O Thou, that in the heavens does dwell,
Wha, as it pleases best Thysel’,
Sends ane to heaven an’ ten to hell,
A’ for Thy glory,
And no for onie guid or ill
They’ve done afore Thee!

O Thou, that in the heavens does dwell.
Who, as it pleases best Thyself,
Sends one to heaven, another to hell,
All for Thy glory,
And not for any good or ill
They have done before Thee!

.
 
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1962Missal:
As a matter of curiosity, I was wondering which of the following you would agree or disagree with and why.
  1. That men are justified, either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ, or by the sole remission of sins, to the exclusion of the grace and the charity which is poured forth in their hearts by the Holy Ghost, and is inherent in them; or even that the grace, whereby we are justified, is only the favour of God.
  2. That justifying faith is nothing else but confidence in the divine mercy which remits sins for Christ’s sake; or, that this confidence alone is that whereby we are justified.
  3. That it is necessary for every one, for the obtaining the remission of sins, that he believe for certain, and without any wavering arising from his own infirmity and disposition, that his sins are forgiven him.
  4. That man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because that he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected.
  5. That a man, who is born again and justified, is bound of faith to believe that he is assuredly in the number of the predestinate.
  6. That a man can say for certain, of an absolute and infallible certainty, that he will have that great gift of perseverance unto the end,-unless he have learned this by special revelation.
  7. That the commandments of God are, even for one that is justified and constituted in grace, impossible to keep.
Stiff language. Looks like you swallowed a canon lawyer whole. Double-check yourself: I thought I saw one which might’ve had a word dropped but now I’m not certain.

Can I guess without looking these are decrees of the Council of Trent? If so: wonder if Augustine (of Hippo? was there more than one Augustine somewhere?) still bears the rank of ‘Saint’? Calvin enlarged and systematized Augustine’s theology. He was just one of many doing so. I believe it was the Thomists, and particularly the Jesuits who were under the influence of Thomism who pushed freewill theism to the forefront of Catholic theology and made it de rigour in the decrees of Trent. Though I think one can still be a thoroughgoing Roman Catholic Augustinian so long as one is fairly discreet about it . . . . ?

My impression was that Orthodoxy was pretty well unanimous in it’s rejection of freewill theism. Fr. Ambrose gives the impression he’s an Ortho priest or member. Mebbe he can disabuse me?

By the way: I think Calvin considered his system to ultimately be a joyful one, as one comes to really understand the overarching sovereignty of God and His plan. It is scarcely so ugly, grim, and hateful as it appears at first glance. Listen to RC Sproul expound sometime upon the holiness of God–foundational to the topic of Divine Election. The first time I heard this series of talks I had to pull over to weep (my work assignment at the time was a night job involving driving). Sproul is probably the most-articulate and most passionate proponent of the sovereignity of God around, though I note that may Catholics here resent his position on Protestant/Catholic dialogue. Well worth a listen if he is on a station in your area.

Bottom line here: this thread was initiated to try to understand what leads Protestants to reject Purgatory. I have spent something more than a half-dozen posts explicating Calvinism because the logic of Calvinist theology clearly precludes Purgatory. Not all forms of predestinarian theology preclude Purgatory–presumably Augustine believed in it. ‘Hyper-Calvinism’ is a particular genre of Calvinism, though anyone who expounds a thoroughly consistent Calvinism gets attacked with the epithet as a way of ensuring they are marginalized.
 
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flameburns623:
My impression was that Orthodoxy was pretty well unanimous in it’s rejection of freewill theism.
I can only take a guess at what freewill theism is. Could you send a reference or two to where it is mentioned, for good or ill, in the writings of the Church Fathers?
Fr. Ambrose gives the impression he’s an Ortho priest or member.
I am as you suspect. An Orthodox priest and monk - one who has taken on voluntary eunuchism for the sake of the Kingdom (Matthew 19:12 ) I imagine that this choice could be an example of freewill theism? God calls a man or woman to a celibate life. The person freely responds and so we have an example of what the Orthodox call “synergy” - the mutual working of the will of God and the will of man. For the Orthodox this divine-human synergy is always in play, for our salvation.
 
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flameburns623:
Stiff language. Looks like you swallowed a canon lawyer whole. Double-check yourself: I thought I saw one which might’ve had a word dropped but now I’m not certain.

Can I guess without looking these are decrees of the Council of Trent?
You are right. They are some of the Tridentine canons on justification that I rephrased as positive statements rather than as anathemata. I don’t usually run across a classical Calvinist and I was wondering which of the statements were actually representative of what you believe. It would be nice to know those areas in which we know that we can have no agreement.

Justin
 
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flameburns623:
Stiff language. Looks like you swallowed a canon lawyer whole. Double-check yourself: I thought I saw one which might’ve had a word dropped but now I’m not certain.

Can I guess without looking these are decrees of the Council of Trent? If so: wonder if Augustine (of Hippo? was there more than one Augustine somewhere?) still bears the rank of ‘Saint’? Calvin enlarged and systematized Augustine’s theology. He was just one of many doing so. I believe it was the Thomists, and particularly the Jesuits who were under the influence of Thomism who pushed freewill theism to the forefront of Catholic theology and made it de rigour in the decrees of Trent. Though I think one can still be a thoroughgoing Roman Catholic Augustinian so long as one is fairly discreet about it . . . . ?
You can not follow the teachings of only one of the church fathers and ignore the rest. You can’t foolow one sermon of a saint and reject every other sermon. Let me ask you a question. Do you believe that the wine and bread of Eucharist are litterally Jesus’s body and blood? If not you are going against what Augustine taught himself. Here are some quotes.
“That Bread which you see on the altar, having been sanctified by the word of God IS THE BODY OF CHRIST. That chalice, or rather, what is in that chalice, having been sanctified by the word of God, IS THE BLOOD OF CHRIST. Through that bread and wine the Lord Christ willed to commend HIS BODY AND BLOOD, WHICH HE POURED OUT FOR US UNTO THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS.” (Sermons 227)
“The Lord Jesus wanted those whose eyes were held lest they should recognize him, to recognize Him in the breaking of the bread [Luke 24:16,30-35]. The faithful know what I am saying. They know Christ in the breaking of the bread. For not all bread, but only that which receives the blessing of Christ, BECOMES CHRIST’S BODY.” (Sermons 234:2)
“What you see is the bread and the chalice; that is what your own eyes report to you. But what your faith obliges you to accept is that THE BREAD IS THE BODY OF CHRIST AND THE CHALICE [WINE] THE BLOOD OF CHRIST.” (Sermons 272)
 
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flameburns623:
By the way: I think Calvin considered his system to ultimately be a joyful one, as one comes to really understand the overarching sovereignty of God and His plan. It is scarcely so ugly, grim, and hateful as it appears at first glance. Listen to RC Sproul expound sometime upon the holiness of God–foundational to the topic of Divine Election. The first time I heard this series of talks I had to pull over to weep (my work assignment at the time was a night job involving driving). Sproul is probably the most-articulate and most passionate proponent of the sovereignity of God around, though I note that may Catholics here resent his position on Protestant/Catholic dialogue. Well worth a listen if he is on a station in your area.
The idea that God created some people to go to Hell is not a joyfull idea. God did not create me,or you,or anyone to go to Hell. But that is what Calvin teaches. God created us because he loves us and he saves those who follow him. Check these verses.
He who doesn’t love doesn’t know God, for God is love. 1 John 4:8
For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.John 3:16
You have loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your fellows." *Hebrews 1:9 *
Yahweh appeared of old to me, [saying], Yes, I have loved you with an everlasting love: therefore with loving kindness have I drawn you. Jeremiah 31:3
 
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