Why do Catholics believe in Purgatory and Protestants do not?

[Churchmouse]

This is to those who keep using the fallacious assumption that Onesiphorus is in purgatory. Examples:

“According to 2 Mach. 12, 12:46 there existed in late Judaism the conviction that those who had died in sin could be helped by prayer and sacrifice of atonement. Purification from sin was ascribed to prayer and sacrifice. The early Christians took over from Judaism belief in the efficacy of intercessory prayer. Paul desired God’s mercy on the day of judgment for his loyal helper Onesiphorus, who, apparently, was no longer among the living at the time of the composition of the Second Epistle to Timothy: “The Lord grant (grace) until him to find mercy of the Lord in that day” (2 Tim. 1:18)” ibid, p. 321.

…and…

2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him. But there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.

…and…

Why is he asking God for mercy on the soul of Onesiphorus if there is no Purgatory. There is no mercy for those in hell. And those in Heaven don’t need it so if there is no Purgatory then there is no point to pray for mercy.

I’ve always seen this as one of the biggest contradictions amongst the Catholic apologetics crowd in regards to purgatory. The argument goes that purgatory must exist, after all, Paul sounds like he’s praying for a dead Onesiphorus, but when you look at the Catholic “tradition” which states that Onesiphorus died after Paul, you’re left scratching your head.

Traditionally, Paul died about the year 67 A.D. and Onesiphorus died in 80-81 A.D. This would mean Onesiphorus died about 13-14 years after Paul. So, either the Catholic apologist is wrong in appealing to a verse simply because it “seems” like Onesiphorus is dead (thus, is guilty of reading too much into the verse), or the Catholic tradition claiming he died after Paul is wrong. Even if we depend solely on the context of the verse, to believe that Onesiphorus is dead is unwarranted. Further, to believe that he is in some “purgatory” is the height of assumption. Paul’s prayer is referring to the “day of the Lord” and not to some forlorn purgatory. On the whole, there is no reason to believe Onesiphorus was dead, maybe he just wasn’t home at the moment .

Peace,
CM

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him. But there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.

The argument doesn’t quite hold up. The Orthodox pray for the dead and such prayer is a very important part of our lives but all the same we do not believe in purgatory.

Here is a small extract from the Memorial Service for the dead

Deacon: Again let us pray for the repose of the soul(s) of the departed servant(s) of God, and that he (they) may be pardoned all his (their) sins, voluntary and involuntary.

R: Lord have mercy

Deacon: That the Lord God will assign his (their) soul(s) to where the Just repose.

R: Lord have mercy

The mercies of God, the kingdom of heaven, and the forgiveness of his (their) sins, let us ask of Christ, our immortal King and our God.

Choir: Grant this, o Lord.

The whole text is here
fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/pannihida_e.htm

** You will find it interesting that the Orthodox pray for the forgiveness of sins of those who have departed this life.

 

[flameburns623]

Jimmy:

Quote:
He who doesn’t love doesn’t know God, for God is love. 1 John 4:8

And all of us are aliens to Love until God works a change within us otherwise.

Quote:
For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.John 3:16

But the capacity for belief is given to the Elect by God. Without God’s sovereign and free decision to save some of us, none of us would be among the ‘whosoever should believe’.

Quote:
You have loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your fellows." *Hebrews 1:9 *

Which must be interpreted in light of the verses in Romans and elsewhere which make clear that all humans, by nature, DESPISE righteousness and LOVE iniquity. In order that some might do otherwise, God had to work a change in their hearts. We are told He did so WITHOUT RESPECT TO ANY VIRTUE within any individual, for His own purposes and reasons.

Quote:
Yahweh appeared of old to me, [saying], Yes, I have loved you with an everlasting love: therefore with loving kindness have I drawn you. Jeremiah 31:3

This last verse is not uncommonly cited by predestinarians and one must wonder at your decision to cite it. I offered up numerous Scripture texts myself. Did you look any of them up? I offered a goodly number of books by varous authors who have dealt at no inconsiderable length with this topic. Did you endeavor to read at least some? A dialogue is greatly helped if each party makes a sincere effort to understand the position of the other. Otherwise we’re just Mormons by another name, each appealing to our own ‘burning in the bosom’. They make Prevacid and Prilosec for ‘burning in the bosm’. People write books in order to clarify and enlarge on thorny topics.

Jimmy:

The idea that God created some people to go to Hell is not a joyfull idea. God did not create me,or you,or anyone to go to Hell. But that is what Calvin teaches. God created us because he loves us and he saves those who follow him.

Hell is not a joyful prospect. God was under no obligation to save any of us from it. All of us, left to our own devices would have gone there. The justice of God is such that it is what we each deserve. The ‘joyful’ part of Calvinism is that God elected to love some of us and show some of us His mercy. He was under NO COMPULSION to do so. He had no duty or need to do so. He gains nothing by doing so. He would have lost nothing had He elected NOT to do so. He is absolutely, sovereignly free to save or not save part or all of humanity and He has elected to save some in a manner befitting His mercy and His justice.

 

[MariaG]

Churchmouse,

I tried to do a search on Onesiphorus to check your dates. I couldn’t find one online. Where and what is your source, online or hardcopy for the date Onesiphorus died? Thanks .

Maria

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

flameburns623:

Hell is not a joyful prospect. God was under no obligation to save any of us from it. All of us, left to our own devices would have gone there. The justice of God is such that it is what we each deserve. The ‘joyful’ part of Calvinism is that God elected to love some of us and show some of us His mercy. He was under NO COMPULSION to do so. He had no duty or need to do so. He gains nothing by doing so. He would have lost nothing had He elected NOT to do so. He is absolutely, sovereignly free to save or not save part or all of humanity and He has elected to save some in a manner befitting His mercy and His justice.

Flameburns, You honestly make me weep, and it’s not from joy.

How can a God exist with the attributes you describe above?

Let’s make an analogy. In the Sudan 80,000 children are in danger of starvation and death, and the older ones of slavery and sexual abuse.

So the US or the UK says: OK, we have the means to save all of you from starvation and abuse, but what we choose to do is to save 10,000 of you. After all we are a sovereign nation and we can choose to save you or not. The rest of you can start digging your graves. We don’t have to save any of you. You should all be joyful that we have chosen to save a small number…

… Do you see why the God of the Christians and the god of the Calvinists is not the same God? We are not talking about small points of doctrinal differences. We are talking about how we perceive the very nature of God Himself.

Go back and read the words of Hilaire Belloc about Calvin’s re-animation of the old pagan god of the inexorable.

 

[Churchmouse]

MariaG:

Churchmouse,

I tried to do a search on Onesiphorus to check your dates. I couldn’t find one online. Where and what is your source, online or hardcopy for the date Onesiphorus died? Thanks .

Maria

Hi Maria,

I am going strictly by memory. I read a book of Catholic martyrs (I forget the name) a couple of years back and ran into this tradition; however, I’m sure it’s peppered around the web. Here’s one I found that places his death at 80 A.D.: St. Patrick’s Scroll down to Onesiphorus and Porphyrius. Here’s another one which places his death at 81 A.D.: Saint Onesiphorus. You can probably find the date on various books dealing with saints.

Peace,
CM

 

[Churchmouse]

Fr Ambrose:

The argument doesn’t quite hold up. The Orthodox pray for the dead and such prayer is a very important part of our lives but all the same we do not believe in purgatory.

That’s what I thought Thanks for clearing that up

I have a question for you though: Regarding the Orthodox, do they believe that the righteous don’t go directly to heaven, but go to a place like Abraham’s bosom (Luke 16:22) until the resurrection? That they are given a “taste” of their future destiny, much like what Tertullian taught?

Thanks!

Peace,
CM

 

[flameburns623]

Fr Ambrose:

Let’s make an analogy. In the Sudan 80,000 children are in danger of starvation and death, and the older ones of slavery and sexual abuse.

So the US or the UK says: OK, we have the means to save all of you from starvation and abuse, but what we choose to do is to save 10,000 of you. After all we are a sovereign nation and we can choose to save you or not. The rest of you can start digging your graves. We don’t have to save any of you. You should all be joyful that we have chosen to save a small number…

Apples contrasted to oranges. The 80,000 children are not by nature enemies of the USA or the UK who despise everything their would-be rescuers stand for and who would inevitably spit in our faces and die before accepting an iota of help from us. While the US or the UK cannot be compelled to save as many of the 80,000 as they have means to do–they are morally obliged to do so. To save only a portion where the means existed to save all would be a capricious and fickle act on the part of the US or UK.

Humananity as a race however utterly despises the true God and with great joy transgresses His law at every opportunity. Happily we by nature accept Hell rather than serve the One who has created us. We WANT eternal separation from God: we loathe by our nature the holy and sovereign God. God therefore is not morally obliged to save any of us. We are sinners. He is just in condemning all of us. He is merciful insofar as He has elected to save some of us. He is not doing this arbitrarily or whimsically but for reasons of His own which are outside our purview. He is not acting cruelly or vindictively in condemning the many–He is acting out of His own love and mercy in rescuing the Elect.

Pagan deities enter into this discussion in no wise. The difference between your theology and mine, Fr. Ambrose, rests not so much in our conception of God but in our conception of human beings. You think our existence imposes obligations upon God. I say that God remains sovereign even over the sons and daughters of Adam and that none of us gets to dictate to God that He ‘must’ save us for any reason which rests in our nature. If any of us is saved at all, it will be an Act of God which saves us and not any act of any human being.

Has the person who wondered why Protestants don’t accept Purgatory ever gleaned from all of this the answer I’ve been trying to explicate? By the way, Fr. Ambrose: like you I pray for the departed. I just happen not to accept purgatory.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

flameburns623:

Humananity as a race however utterly despises the true God and with great joy transgresses His law at every opportunity.

I really do not know how to reply. Whatever experience you have had of “humanity” must be pretty dreadful. Did you live in the awful concentration camps of Russia or Germany?

The bottom line however for our differences is theological and centres on our widely different understanding of original sin.

For the Orthodox the tragedy that happened in the Garden of Eden was the disruption of our relationship with God.

Because of this disruption, sin and death came into the world.

The purpose of the Incarnation of Christ, the God-man, was to do away with that disruption and to restore us to the original image and likeness of God. And of course he did even more than that. By taking on humanity and uniting it to His divinity he opened for us a way to “become by grace what God is by nature” as the apostle Peter says.

The bottom line is that we live in two different religious worlds and worship different Gods.

Has the person who wondered why Protestants don’t accept Purgatory ever gleaned from all of this the answer I’ve been trying to explicate?

More than likely. I have, so presumably he or she has also.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Churchmouse:

I have a question for you though: Regarding the Orthodox, do they believe that the righteous don’t go directly to heaven, but go to a place like Abraham’s bosom (Luke 16:22) until the resurrection? That they are given a “taste” of their future destiny, much like what Tertullian taught?

Yes, that is pretty much on the money (with the proviso that I would need to see what Tertullian taught before making a comment on that specific part of what you wrote.)

 

[Churchmouse]

Fr Ambrose:

Yes, that is pretty much on the money (with the proviso that I would need to see what Tertullian taught before making a comment on that specific part of what you wrote.)

Thanks for the acknowledgment What I stated before is pretty much what Tertullian taught.

Peace,
CM

 

[flameburns623]

Fr Ambrose:

I really do not know how to reply. Whatever experience you have had of “humanity” must be pretty dreadful. Did you live in the awful concentration camps of Russia or Germany?

Not nearly so old enough. I have had a reasonably good life, actually. My father died when I was fairly young–13 years old–but my mother re-married rather quickly and my stepfather eventually assumed fully the role of father to me. Grew up on fallow farmland in southwestern Missouri–my stepdad drove a truck and ‘played’ at farming occasionally. Joined the Army, got to see Germany and parts of Italy, went to college in St. Louis and have stayed here ever since. I’ve been half-deaf since leaving the service–literally: one ear hears nothing, the other hears little enough without hearing aids to assist. I’ve suffered the usual decline since hitting my late thirties and forties: my back has a penchant for going ‘out’ without taking the rest of me, I wear bifocals these days, etcetera. Married twice, divorced once. Typical life for an American. Nothing especially horrendous however.

The bottom line however for our differences is theological and centres on our widely different understanding of original sin.

Which by rights should be the start of a whole 'nother thread.

For the Orthodox the tragedy that happened in the Garden of Eden was the disruption of our relationship with God.

Because of this disruption, sin and death came into the world.

The purpose of the Incarnation of Christ, the God-man, was to do away with that disruption and to restore us to the original image and likeness of God. And of course he did even more than that. By taking on humanity and uniting it to His divinity he opened for us a way to “become by grace what God is by nature” as the apostle Peter says.

And people who are effectively dead to God are to appropriate the grace Christ has opened for us by what means? Have you ever endeavored to feed a dead person? Or enlist a corpse to do yardwork?

The bottom line is that we live in two different religious worlds and worship different Gods.

I don’t concur. We disagree on peripherals, of course. I think we are each sound on fundamentals. That is of course Protestant language: though I attend a traditionalist Anglican congregation (one which is in regualr dialogue with some of the Orthodox groups), one of my friends there tells me he figures that on a good day I’m scarcely more than half-Anglican and on bad days I’m at least three-fifths Baptist. Which is funny since I’ve never attended a Baptist church nor considered myself Baptist.

If it elevates your mood at all, among the books I am currently reading–in spurts–are several by Clark Carlton. I usually get about a chapter a month in and then get distracted.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

flameburns623:

Which by rights should be the start of a whole 'nother thread.

I haven’t been on the Forum long, but I’ve discovered that any thread with the word “Orthodox” in its subject line can range the entire globe !!

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Fr Ambrose:

I haven’t been on the Forum long, but I’ve discovered that any thread with the word “Orthodox” in its subject line can range the entire globe !!

Oops! This thread doesn’t have Orthodox in the subject line

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

flameburns623:

And people who are effectively dead to God are to appropriate the grace Christ has opened for us by what means? Have you ever endeavored to feed a dead person? Or enlist a corpse to do yardwork?

But this is my point. We have quite different beliefs about the nature of original sin and its effects. You believe in Total Depravity. I do not.

If it elevates your mood at all, among the books I am currently reading–in spurts–are several by Clark Carlton. I usually get about a chapter a month in and then get distracted.

Don’t like Clark Carlton. People who change their faith and become Orthodox should restrain themselves from writing for the first 20 years Some of them just use their new faith as an outlet for their previous prejudices against Catholic or Protestants. All very “clever” but boorish and boring…

 

[cybrscream]

Any of your unanswered questions regarding Heaven and theology will be answered when you get there.

 

[Luke24]

hlgomez:

One of the arguments they use for not believing was the thief who was present during the crucifixion of Jesus. Jesus went on to say “Today, you will be with me in paradise.”

Father Echert beautifully expalined that the crucifixion, which was a terrible form of torture that will lead to death was a form of “purgation” for the said thief. He may have escaped purgatory, but the fact is, he paid for his sins before entering heaven thru crucifixion. Now what about those who didn’t paid yet for their sins when they die? The Catholic Church says–they will go to purgatory for cleansing before they can enter heaven. For nothing defiled can enter heaven.

Pio

Interesting to say the least; Yet the Bible teaches Jesus died once for all. I wonder what you do with that? Can you tell me where once a regular human being died for the sins of the world? Can you tell me where one person outside of Jesus was sinless? Who else is to take away sin but Jesus? Only He can and only He can forgive…check it out! The Bible plainly teaches it is by faith and faith alone that we are saved! Look up faith in any concordance you have and then check out salvation. You will find the truth, and it is not in your catechism. Le 16:34
an everlasting. Le 23:31; Nu 29:7
once a year. Ex 30:10; Heb 9:7; 10:3,14
De 32:20; Hab 2:4; Mt 6:30; 8:10,26; 9:2,22,29; 14:31; 15:28; 16:8; 17:20; 21:21; 23:23; 26:33; Mr 2:5; 4:40; 5:34; 10:52; 11:22; Lu 5:20; 7:9,50; 8:25,48; 12:28; 17:5-6,19; 18:8,42; 22:32; Ac 3:16; 6:5,7-8; 11:24; 13:8; 14:9,22,27; 15:9; 16:5; 17:31; 20:21; 24:24; 26:18; Ro 1:5,8,12,17; 3:3,22,25,27-28,30-31; 4:5,9,11-14,16,19-20; 5:1-2; 9:30,32; 10:6,8,17; 11:20; 12:3,6; 14:1,22-23; 16:26; 1Co 2:5; 12:9; 13:2,13; 15:14,17; 16:13; 2Co 1:24; 4:13; 5:7; 8:7; 10:15; 13:5; Ga 1:23; 2:16,20; 3:2,5,7-9,11-12,14,22-26; 5:5-6,22; 6:10; Eph 1:15; 2:8; 3:12,17; 4:5,13; 6:16,23; Php 1:25,27; 2:17; 3:9; Col 1:4,23; 2:5,7,12; 1Th 1:3,8; 3:2,5-7,10; 5:8; 2Th 1:3-4,11; 3:2; 1Ti 1:2,4-5,14,19; 2:7,15; 3:6,9,13; 4:1,6,12; 5:8,12; 6:10-12,21; 2Ti 1:5,13; 2:18,22; 3:8,10,15; 4:7; Tit 1:1,4,13; 2:2; 3:15; Phm 1:5-6; Heb 4:2; 6:1,12; 10:22-23,38; 11:1,3-9,11,13,17,20-24,27-31,33,39; 12:2; 13:7; Jas 1:3,6; 2:1,5,14,17-18,20,22,24,26; 5:15; 1Pe 1:5,7,9,21; 5:9; 2Pe 1:1,5; 1Jo 5:4; Jude 1:3,20; Re 2:13,19; 13:10; 14:12

And to think and believe me, I was once a catholic, wanting to be a nun. Faith and Hope: the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen.
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Fortunately I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and what He promised to them that believe.

Praise God I believe in Him and Him alone. No extras, no garbage.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Luke24:

And to think and believe me, I was once a catholic, wanting to be a nun.

Luke, you wanted to be a nun?!

 

[Writer]

At least one Protestant by the name of C.S. Lewis (an Anglican) wrote the passage below towards the end of his life. I highly recommend C.S. Lewis and the Catholic Church by Joseph Pierce further discsussion of Lewis’ opinion of Purgatory.

***I believe in purgatory… Our souls demand purgatory, don’t they? Would it not beak the heart if God said to us, ‘It is true, my son, that your breath smells and your rags drip with mud and slime, but we are charitable here and no one will upbraid you with these things, nor draw away from you. Enter into the joy’? Should we not reply, ‘With submission, sir, and if there is no objection, I’d rather be cleansed first.’ ‘It may hurt, you know.’ ‘Even so, sir.’ - C.S.Lewis ***

---

 

[Writer]

At least one Protestant believed in Purgatory. A quote from C.S. Lewis is copied below, if interested. I recommend *C.S. Lewis and the Catholic Church *by Joseph Pierce, if you want to learn more. I had a (former?) friend basicaly tell me that I was going to hell over issues such as this recently and have been giving it a lot of thought. I agree with a priest who said that purgatory may be over in an instant, and we might not even be aware that it took place. Personally, I think of it in terms of the gate which we step through to enter heaven beyond. It is an acknowledgement of how unprepared we are to face our Creator.

***I believe in purgatory… Our souls demand purgatory, don’t they? Would it not beak the heart if God said to us, ‘It is true, my son, that your breath smells and your rags drip with mud and slime, but we are charitable here and no one will upbraid you with these things, nor draw away from you. Enter into the joy’? Should we not reply, ‘With submission, sir, and if there is no objection, I’d rather be cleansed first.’ ‘It may hurt, you know.’ ‘Even so, sir.’ - C.S.Lewis ***