Why do Catholics believe in Purgatory?

[benhur]

]Ben - Jesus suffered so that the Gates of Heaven would be opened to the human race. He did not suffer so every single human could enter heaven (though He wishes it).

Hi Phil

Of course, and He did not suffer so that every single human could enter purgatory if needed.

He suffered also to make us righteous, thru faith in His suffering/death. He is our propitiation. He cleanses us not thru purgatory but thru His blood.

Purgatory allows we sinners, who are not worthy of Heaven a way in. God burns away our sins through the Fire of His Love and our souls become glorified and pure. We suffer in purgatory because we are finally 100% exposed to God’s love for us and we realize and see how we didn’t love him enough. We see our mistakes and suffer because we realize just truly how much we didn’t live up to His love for us and we “suffer” because we realize just how much God loves us and how much we took it for granted

.Thank you for sharing your faith on this matter. I found (and find) that your purgatory explanation happens first and foremost at Calvary, upon first meeting the risen Savior (and or being brought back to that point). And the suffering we do is unto death. We die but come to life in Him, as we signify in water baptism.

Again, I do believe in the judgement of the righteous, but it is their works in Christ that are judged (and after our resurrection) and nothing to do with entry into heaven. After all, if He already dwells in us, we must be (are) pure enough thru faith in Christ to dwell with Him in heaven.

Where this becomes confused by non-Catholics (and some Catholics) is in regards to Catholic Life. We focus on the “suffering part” and less on the “mercy part” because we want people to focus on trying to get to heaven, not attempting to do the bare minimum to get into Purgatory

I will vouch for folks “trying to get to heaven”. Again, thru faith in Christ and Calvary we are seated in heavenly places already, as Paul states. Of course I know you partly mean we must remain in His grace, and I agree He will do that also.

Blessings

 

[phil19034]

I think that Limbo was taught. It was in the Baltimore catechism, at least one of the editions in the last part of the catechism where they give definitions of terms. And Pope Pius VI condemned any doctrine which rejects the idea of a limbo for infants. The Papal Bull, Auctorem Fidei, was issued in 1794 by Pope Pius VI, condemning a series of errors as heretical or false, rash and injurious:.
“26. The doctrine which rejects as a Pelagian fable, that place of the lower regions (which the faithful generally designate by the name of the limbo of children) in which the souls of those departing with the sole guilt of original sin are punished with the punishment of the condemned, exclusive of the punishment of fire, just as if, by this very fact, that these who remove the punishment of fire introduced that middle place and state free of guilt and of punishment between the kingdom of God and eternal damnation, such as that about which the Pelagians idly talk,-false, rash, injurious to Catholic schools.”
Also Pope Sixtus V taught in a 1588 Constitution that victims of abortion, being deprived of Baptism, are “excluded from Beatific Vision.”
And Pope Martin V and the Council of Constance, Session 15, July 6, 1415, in condemning the teachings of John Wyclif declared that “Those who claim that the children of the faithful dying without sacramental baptism will not be saved, are stupid and presumptuous in saying this. - Condemned.”

Tom - I don’t think I’m being clear. I said that Limbo was taught by bishops and was in the Baltimore Catechism, which was the local Catechism of the United States bishops (not of the world wide Church).

Limbo is not dogma, nor doctrine. It is a theory. Pope Paul denounced anything that would ban Limbo because we simply do not know what happens to un-baptized babies when they die.

Today, we hope and pray that God will show them Divine Mercy and let them be with Him in Heaven, but we don’t know for sure. This is not part of Revelation.

So either THEORY is allowed. Today, the popular theory is that they go to Heaven. 50 years ago, the popular theory was Limbo. Limbo was taught then, and Heaven is taught now. But this is not dogma or doctrine.

Just like the description of Purgatory isn’t dogma or doctrine.

God Bless!

 

[benhur]

Ben…as the following verses say…we have to do our part in the cleansing too:

2 Cor 7:1
7:1 Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and of spirit, making holiness perfect in the fear of God.

2 Tim 2:21
All who cleanse themselves of the things I have mentioned will become special utensils, dedicated and useful to the owner of the house, ready for every good work.

James 4:8
Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

Yes, of course there is sanctification .There is also the putting off the old man thru the new man, walking in the spirit and not the flesh etc. .But again Christ perfection thru Calvary in this matter is our propitiation, not our own achieved perfectness which none are in themselves. His righteousness is ours and to me purgatory makes it seem like it is not enough .

From Rev 7…14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”

And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

So now we take credit for having the goodness to know to wash ourselves in His blood ? It is a gift that we appropriate thru faith His washing. Adam and Eve would not say they clothed themselves in animal skins but that God himself clothed them.

Ben…you works are judged when you pass from this earthly life…not when you are here on earth

Well hopefully we are judged also on earth, even chastised as a father does to his son.

As far as afterlife when are we judged and what is judged ?

I have stated that the judgement most closely resembling purgatory is really the judgement seat of Christ where believers works will be judged, and it is stated this occurs after our bodily resurrection, and has nothing to do with entry into heaven after our death.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

pablope;13170461:

From Jn15:3 “Now ye are made clean through the words I have spoken unto you” .
Let’s not be overly selective in proof texts.

Amen!

 

[phil19034]

catholic.com/tracts/purgatory

catholic.com/blog/tim-staples/is-purgatory-in-the-bible
catholic.com/tracts/the-roots-of-purgatory
catholic.com/tracts/grace-what-it-is-and-what-it-does

Some Bible references for Purgatory

“For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin” (2 Macc. 12:44-45).

“Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny” (Matt. 5:25-26).

“Each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire” (1 Cor. 3:13-15).

“For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly did not obey . . .” (1 Peter 3:18-20).

“But nothing unclean shall enter it [heaven] . . .” (Rev. 21:27).

 

[CatholicHockey7]

No. Because if a bishop taught heresy, it would not bind the faithful. The bishop must team in concert with the faith. The Magisterium does not teach what Purgatory looks or feels like. That is private revelation or theological theory. Not infallible teaching. The only infallible teaching is that their is a purification process that God uses, which we humans call purgatory.

From the Catechism (emphasis mine):

1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611

I’d say “fire” is pretty specific, and the Catechism is certainly the Magisterium.

 

[CatholicHockey7]

No one said that when a bishop teaches individually, he teaches infallibly. But, nevertheless, according to canon 753 Catholics are bound to adhere with religious submission of mind to the** authentic magisterium** of their bishops.

“Authentic magisterium” is the key phrase. If a bishop or cardinal is teaching heresy (which some have done throughout history) then it is not authentic magisterium and Catholics have a duty to object.

Nor can anything taught by a bishop ever be “binding” on the faithful unless it is taught by the universal Church.

Yes, as Catholics, we owe a certain level of respect and submission to our bishops. But they also owe us as servants of God to faithfully represent the Truth.

 

[phil19034]

From the Catechism (emphasis mine):

I’d say “fire” is pretty specific, and the Catechism is certainly the Magisterium.

yes, I totally agree with this. The descriptions I was referring to are the private revelation descriptions.

NOTE: I’m not personally saying that I agree or disagree with any private revelation, but I’m trying to make the point that the Orthodox and Catholic teachings are much closer than they are apart.

 

[benhur]

“Each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire” (1 Cor. 3:13-15).

And when is the “Day” ? Is it not at the judgement seat of Christ after our resurrection? After we are already in heaven ?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

And when is the “Day” ? Is it not at the judgement seat of Christ after our resurrection? After we are already in heaven ?

Wait. . .are you telling me that when Christ judges us, we’re 'already in heaven?" How can that be for those who (sadly) wind up in hell?

Since heaven is a place and a state (something we physical beings cannot adequately contemplate) and since Heaven does not exist in 'time" (therefore the 'DAY" is not some period of time in a future set years, decades, etc. which will be a 24 hour period such as we know on earth), can you tell me it is not possible for a soul to experience a judgment by Christ which is set, ‘outside of time’ in which a purgation (purgatory) ITSELF might be experienced in that entire ‘judgment’ and in which the soul after purgation (again, experienced in eternity and 'outside of time) is in heaven?

And likewise, a soul at the point of death (thus, leaving’ earth time’ and entering eternity) could at the judgment go directly to heaven (assuming there was nothing imperfect at the time of death) or directly to hell (assuming there was final refusal of salvation and the soul was in mortal sin). . . How does the existence of purgatory change any of that? It doesn’t, right? BUT for a soul which is not perfect, yet accepts salvation, we KNOW from Scripture that anything not perfect cannot enter heaven. The concept of purgatory (from Maccabees on) is Scriptural, Traditional, and logical. It does not replace heaven or hell. It does not have any impact of them. It does, however, as St. Paul notes, provide the opportunity for that ‘cleansing fire’ which is necessary if a person has imperfections at the point of death.

 

[benhur]

Wait. . .are you telling me that when Christ judges us, we’re 'already in heaven?" How can that be for those who (sadly) wind up in hell?

That scripture is for the righteous, not the unrighteous. There is the judgement seat of Christ and the Great White Throne judgement, one for saved and one for lost.

(therefore the 'DAY" is not some period of time in a future set years, decades, etc. which will be a 24 hour period such as we know on earth),

Day is an event just as the “day of the Lord” or that "great day’ and events do have a timeline, if even from just our perspective.

can you tell me it is not possible for a soul to experience a judgment by Christ which is set, ‘outside of time’ in which a purgation (purgatory) ITSELF might be experienced in that entire ‘judgment’ and in which the soul after purgation (again, experienced in eternity and 'outside of time) is in heaven?

Perhaps , but in practice that is not how most look at purgatory. The degree of suffering is tied into the time spent in purgatory

And likewise, a soul at the point of death (thus, leaving’ earth time’ and entering eternity) could at the judgment go directly to heaven (assuming there was nothing imperfect at the time of death) or directly to hell (assuming there was final refusal of salvation and the soul was in mortal sin). . . How does the existence of purgatory change any of that?

It is not that purgatory changes anything but not seeing perfection thru faith in Christ definitely opens the door for the need of purgatory, which I see as a "change’ and departure from truth…

It does, however, as St. Paul notes, provide the opportunity for that ‘cleansing fire’ which is necessary if a person has imperfections at the point of death.

Again, this seems to happen after our resurrection, does not deal with “salvation” but with works in Christ being judged, hence is for Christians only (Paul’s quote).

Blessings

 

[phil19034]

And when is the “Day” ? Is it not at the judgement seat of Christ after our resurrection? After we are already in heaven ?

The day is our particular judgment. The rest of the Bible verse deals with purgatory

"Each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor. 3:13-15).

God Bless

 

[benhur]

“But nothing unclean shall enter it [heaven] . . .” (Rev. 21:27).

“and do not call unclean what God has cleansed” (by the gospel) Acts 10:15 paraphrase

 

[benhur]

The day is our particular judgment. The rest of the Bible verse deals with purgatory

God Bless

“He will also keep you firm to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ”. 1cor1:8

 

[phil19034]

“and do not call unclean what God has cleansed” (by the gospel) Acts 10:15 paraphrase

You have to take Scripture in context. The below is from the Ignatius Study Bible

10:15 God has cleansed: Jesus revoked the Mosaic food laws when he declared “all foods clean” (Mk 7:19), a teaching echoed in the catechesis of the apostles (Rom 14:14; 1 Tim 4:3-5). Allegorically, Peter was to learn that God was cleansing the hearts of the Gentiles (15:9).

God Bless

 

[phil19034]

“He will also keep you firm to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ”. 1cor1:8

1Cor1:8 the day of our Lord:

Paul reminds readers of the Day of Judgment, when every thought, word, and deed will be weighed in the balance by Christ (Rom 2:5-10; 2 Cor 5:10; CCC 682). • The “day of the Lord” is a recurrent expression in the OT. It is a day of fiery judgment when God takes vengeance on his enemies and vindicates the saints (Joel 2:30-32; Amos 5:18; Obad 15). Sometimes it refers to a day within history, as with the day of Jerusalem’s devastation in A.D. 70 (Zech 14:1-5; Mt 24); other times it refers to the last day of history, when Christ will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead (3:13; 5:5; Acts 10:42). Paul rewords the traditional formula (“day of the Lord”) to identify Christ with the divine Judge (“day of our Lord Jesus Christ”).

 

[IGotQuestions]

Excellent replies.
Thanks everyone.

 

[benhur]

You have to take Scripture in context. The below is from the Ignatius Study Bible

God Bless

That was my context,and without purgatory they were cleansed. They had the Holy Spirit, even Jesus, even the kingdom of heaven, in them, as in not only with them but in them. Flesh/man was pure enough to be ''inhabitedt" by the God head, and vice versa, for man to be with God, even in heaven.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

1Cor1:8 the day of our Lord:

Paul reminds readers of the Day of Judgment, when every thought, word, and deed will be weighed in the balance by Christ (Rom 2:5-10; 2 Cor 5:10; CCC 682). • The “day of the Lord” is a recurrent expression in the OT. It is a day of fiery judgment when God takes vengeance on his enemies and vindicates the saints (Joel 2:30-32; Amos 5:18; Obad 15). Sometimes it refers to a day within history, as with the day of Jerusalem’s devastation in A.D. 70 (Zech 14:1-5; Mt 24); other times it refers to the last day of history, when Christ will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead (3:13; 5:5; Acts 10:42). Paul rewords the traditional formula (“day of the Lord”) to identify Christ with the divine Judge (“day of our Lord Jesus Christ”).

Very good but I also think it still refers to a specific event, but apart from judgement of unrighteous. Does this take place on an individual time (death) or all together just before the second advent when we will rule with Him?

“Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that Day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his appearing.” 2Tim4:8

Paul does not say this will happen when he dies and is with the Lord but sometime later I would say hence the Day. I understood that what we have done for Him will be made manifest/judged to the entire Body and actually all judgements at end times will be for all to see.

“And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.” Rev22:12

Blessings

 

[Tomdstone]

There is a problem because in Matthew 25:31-46, Jesus does not mention Purgatory, but only heaven or hell. Why didn’t He mention Purgatory?