Why do Catholics believe in Purgatory?

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Greek Orthodox do not believe in a Catholic Purgatory.
What they call it is just semantics. That they believe in the concept of a Catholic purgatory is clear.

Just like anyone who believes in Christianity believes in purgatory…even if they don’t articulate it as such.

If she understands the immense gravity of sin, and the utter, sublime, numinous purity of heaven, she understands that something has to happen between death and entrance into heaven to clean up one’s soul.

That’s nothing more, and nothing less, than purgatory.
 
What they call it is just semantics. That they believe in the concept of a Catholic purgatory is clear…
No. I guess you have not read the book: Why Do We Reject Purgatory?, by Coptic Pope Shenouda III in which he presents many theological and biblical arguments against Purgatory.
 
No. I guess you have not read the book: Why Do We Reject Purgatory?, by Coptic Pope Shenouda III in which he presents many theological and biblical arguments against Purgatory.
You are correct–I haven’t read the book.

But I am 100% certain that the concept of purgation before entering heaven is embraced by the Orthodox Church.

What they call it, who cares?

And, again, all Christians who believe that heaven is pure and clean understand that we need purgation prior to entering.

That is, all Christians believe in purgatory, even if they don’t admit it.
 
No. that’s like saying all Christians believe in slavery, even if they don’t admit it.
Well, how about if you explain to me the logic of sin and heaven going together?

You surely understand that if someone dies with a scant “black mark” on his soul, he can’t enter heaven like that.

He’s not going to hell for that little smudge.

But he can’t enter heaven with it either.

So how do you explain what happens to this person who dies, embracing Christ, but still holding on to that little bit o’ disordered desire he was born with?

🍿
 
What is the soul doing when you are sleeping and dreaming of something? If the soul is not sleeping, are we responsible for our lustful dreams?
What the soul is doing or not doing is irrelevant as it applies to sin.

Our souls are not responsible for our sins.

Incidentally, no one is responsible for his own lustful dreams. That’s absurd.
 
What the soul is doing or not doing is irrelevant as it applies to sin.

Our souls are not responsible for our sins.

Incidentally, no one is responsible for his own lustful dreams. That’s absurd.
The poster claims that “The soul does not sleep”. Is that true or not?
 
Well, how about if you explain to me the logic of sin and heaven going together?

You surely understand that if someone dies with a scant “black mark” on his soul, he can’t enter heaven like that.

He’s not going to hell for that little smudge.

But he can’t enter heaven with it either.

So how do you explain what happens to this person who dies, embracing Christ, but still holding on to that little bit o’ disordered desire he was born with?

🍿
A person can enter heaven with a scant “black mark” on his soul as was the case with the good thief. The good thief admitted that he was a sinner and yet Our Divine Lord, Jesus Christ said that he would be in paradise that very day in spite of his past sins. There was no mention of purgatory for the good thief. It was only declared that he would be in paradise that very day.
 
Do you believe you go to Heaven (and/or your resurrected body) exactly as you are, flaws and all? Are you still going to be envious? Jealous? Prone to lust? Are you still going to suffer from concupiscence? Or will some change be affected after death but before Heaven?
Flaws,etc. can’t go to heavean. We must be pure= purgatory. Book of Maccabees. They went to war. Maccabees was counting his dead and saw they had pagan amulets around their necks. He went to the temple and offerred silver offerings for their souls. Why?? If there is heaven and hell all the offerings in the world will not save their souls. Sooo, there must be another place. Hence, purgatory.

Somewhere in Matthew. How does it go??? This is a Mother Theresa of EWTN. We’ve died and are facing a judgement but we are not in hell. Yet there are lashes delivered. Lashes can’t be given in heaven because we are pure. Hence, purgatory. Sorry no Chapter or verses. I loaned the book out. Maybe they can be googled:shrug:
in Christs love
tweedlealice
 
A person can enter heaven with a scant “black mark” on his soul as was the case with the good thief. The good thief admitted that he was a sinner and yet Our Divine Lord, Jesus Christ said that he would be in paradise that very day in spite of his past sins. There was no mention of purgatory for the good thief. It was only declared that he would be in paradise that very day.
EWTN Catholic Q&A
The Good Thief
Question from John Gregory on 06-20-2002:

Dear Father,

Do we know where the Good Thief was within 24 hours of his death? I have always been confused on that. Some people try to use this to say there is no purgatory. Meaning he was a real bad sinner but went to heaven as soon as he died. Do we know for certain that Jesus was talking about “this day” the way we think of it. And I glanced at another question and hope I am not repeating it but do we believe the good thief was enjoying the fullness of the beatific vision when he died? To me I am not sure what to think. On the one hand he REALLY went strait to the source we can be assured Jesus meant what He said but do we know what He meant? The Good Theif stood up for Jesus when many others would only be thinking of themselves with good reason of course. He was suffering immensly and still stood up for Jesus. That is faith. On the other hand he was a great sinner and he was not exactly a martyr for Christ I do not think. So he had to pay for his sins. Is it possible that after standing up for Jesus the suffering and death the Good Thief underwent may have eliminated his purgatory time?

All that being said wouldn’t he have had to wait until Easter Sunday so to speak instead of right after he died? Or did Jesus go strait to the land of the dead and set the good free, strait to heaven on Friday evening? Sorry for all these weird questions. You are so knowledgable I figured if something could be known you would know it.

Omnia pro Jesu per Mariam John

Answer by Fr. John Echert on 06-21-2002:

The Gospel of St. Luke records the repentance of the thief on the cross:

23:39 One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, “Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!” 23:40 But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 23:41 And we indeed justly; for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” 23:42 And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” 23:43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

Some have raised the matter of purgatory with regards to this repentant thief. However, this man died a saint and merited the reward of heaven without the experience of purgatory. How so? The man had truly repented of his sins, asked forgiveness and made a profession of faith in the presence of others, not to mention a rebuke of the other thief who continued to revile the Lord. And he accomplished the sufferings due to his sins on the cross itself and so in the judgment of the Lord there remained no further need for any purgation. For his crucifixion was the just punishment due for his crimes and it was a terrible form of punishment. He was literally impaled upon a cross, no doubt after some form of torture, and he continued to hang in such agony and with public humiliation as an additional component. Finally, in order to hasten his death, his legs were broken while he still lived so that he could no longer support the weight of his own body and would suffocate to death. What a horrible way to spend ones last hours. Most of us would probably choose whatever purgatory consists of, even without knowing, rather than submit to such a barbaric, horrific end of our lives here on earth. This man paid the price, or rather, the Lord paid the price and this man embraced his own suffering as a share in it, thereby making it redemptive and purgative. But even beyond these considerations, the Church has always taught that anyone who dies after baptism without any subsequent personal sin is granted access to heaven immediately, without purgatory. In the case of the Good Thief, his confession of Christ would be the equivalent of a baptism in Christ, and so no purgatory is warranted. ©

The Church Fathers understood the promise of Paradise to the repentant thief mean heaven; more recently, Pope Paul VI wrote the following in commenting upon the Creed:

“We believe in eternal life. We believe that the souls of all those who die in the grace of Christ—whether they must still make expiation in the fire of purgatory, or whether from the moment they leave their bodies they are received by Jesus Christ into Paradise like the good thief—go to form that People of God which succeeds death, death which will be totally destroyed on the day of the Resurrection when these souls are reunited with their bodies.”

The Pope has affirmed that Paradise means heaven. As to “today,” I take that to mean from the moment of the death of this man, presuming he died after Christ, since the gates of heaven were opened only with the death of Christ on the cross. Further, keep in mind that time has no real meaning in heaven, so this thief began to experience the presence of God upon his death.

Thanks, John

Father Echert

COPYRIGHT 2002

www.ewtn.com

(reprinted with permission)
 
“The Pope has affirmed that Paradise means heaven. As to “today,” I take that to mean from the moment of the death of this man, presuming he died after Christ, since the gates of heaven were opened only with the death of Christ on the cross. Further, keep in mind that time has no real meaning in heaven, so this thief began to experience the presence of God upon his death.”
So the good thief did not have to go to Purgatory, even though he had sinned and had a scant “black mark” on his soul ?
 
So the good thief did not have to go to Purgatory, even though he had sinned and had a scant “black mark” on his soul ?
Not everyone goes to purgatory; look at the answer again.

The man had truly repented of his sins, asked forgiveness and made a profession of faith in the presence of others, not to mention a rebuke of the other thief who continued to revile the Lord. And he accomplished the sufferings due to his sins on the cross itself and so in the judgment of the Lord there remained no further need for any purgation
 
Not everyone goes to purgatory; look at the answer again.

The man had truly repented of his sins, asked forgiveness and made a profession of faith in the presence of others, not to mention a rebuke of the other thief who continued to revile the Lord. And he accomplished the sufferings due to his sins on the cross itself and so in the judgment of the Lord there remained no further need for any purgation
Similarly, if others repent of their sins, even though there is a a scant “black mark” on their souls, they may go directly to heaven, contrary to what we were told by tweedlealice and by PRmerger ?
 
Similarly, if others repent of their sins, even though there is a a scant “black mark” on their souls, they may go directly to heaven, contrary to what we were told by tweedlealice and by PRmerger ?
The effects of sin on our soul are repaired by “redemptive suffering.”

This suffering can take place here on earth. The Good Thief suffered a fate worse than his crimes, plus he died a saint because he received Baptism of the Spirit (or Baptism by fire) there on the Cross with our Lord.

But many of us (if not most of us) die with unrepentant venial sins. Those sins must be cleansed before we enter Heaven.

But some elderly and/or terminally sick people suffer as they approach death. Many (not all) believers take this time of suffering to repent for their sins and ask God for His Mercy. Their suffering becomes a “purgatory on earth.” Plus they often have time to reflect on their whole life and ask for forgiveness for all their mistakes.

However, the person who dies expectantly doesn’t have time to make amends before death. They “lose out” on the advantages of redemptive suffering here on earth. So they will most likely need purgatory to be cleansed.
 
The poster claims that “The soul does not sleep”. Is that true or not?
I have no idea.

Although it sounds pretty reasonable to me that the soul, being immaterial, doesn’t sleep, which is a material process.
 
Similarly, if others repent of their sins, even though there is a a scant “black mark” on their souls, they may go directly to heaven, contrary to what we were told by tweedlealice and by PRmerger ?
No. No one gets to heaven with a scant black mark on their souls.

That is the most ludicrous thought–billions of souls (let’s not get into a discussion of how many are in heaven, 'kay?) walking around heaven with black marks upon their souls.



The Good Thief perhaps went to purgatory, or perhaps his extreme suffering on the cross was his purgatory, or perhaps his confession on the cross was his Sacramental Reconciliation with Christ…

But either way…he did not enter heaven with a black mark on his soul.

The concept of people walking around heaven dirty and smudged is astonishingly ridiculous, Tomdstone.

#absolutelyridiculous
 
No. No one gets to heaven with a scant black mark on their souls.

That is the most ludicrous thought–billions of souls (let’s not get into a discussion of how many are in heaven, 'kay?) walking around heaven with black marks upon their souls.

http://33.media.tumblr.com/33bce90af0d229d75db390e0d5c17930/tumblr_inline_ns88b85WPe1r79k32_500.gif

The Good Thief perhaps went to purgatory, or perhaps his extreme suffering on the cross was his purgatory, or perhaps his confession on the cross was his Sacramental Reconciliation with Christ…

But either way…he did not enter heaven with a black mark on his soul.

The concept of people walking around heaven dirty and smudged is astonishingly ridiculous, Tomdstone.

#absolutelyridiculous
How was the good thief able to enter heaven?
 
That is the most ludicrous thought–billions of souls (let’s not get into a discussion of how many are in heaven, 'kay?) walking around heaven with black marks upon their souls…
#absolutelyridiculous
The scant black mark on one’s soul was your idea?
 
How was the good thief able to enter heaven?
I already answered.

He either went to purgatory, or his extreme suffering on the cross was his purgatory, or he confessed his sins to Christ while on the cross (that is, went to the Sacrament of Reconciliation).
 
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