Why do Catholics believe in Purgatory?

[Tomdstone]

I already answered.

He either went to purgatory, or his extreme suffering on the cross was his purgatory, or he confessed his sins to Christ while on the cross (that is, went to the Sacrament of Reconciliation).

How do you deduce from the story in the Bible that he went to Purgatory. Purgatory is not mentioned at all. It simply says that he went to Paradise. And this is confirmed by what the Catholic priest Father Echert is quoted as saying.
Further, if he was completely cleansed of his sins by going to confession, then there was no stain on his soul after confession and there was no need of Purgatory.
I don’t doubt that you believe in Purgatory. But Orthodox don’t adhere to this teaching. To prove this all you have to do is to read a little about what they teach. To start, read the book: Why do we Reject Purgatory by HH Pope Shenouda III.
Briefly, their argument makes the following points (elaborated on in the book):

1. Purgatory is against the doctrine of Atonement and Redemption
2. Purgatory is against the doctrine of Salvation
3. Purgatory is against the sacrament of repentance

 

[PRmerger]

How do you deduce from the story in the Bible that he went to Purgatory.

Because the Bible says that nothing unclean can enter heaven.

usccb.org/bible/revelation/21

You are the one who has to prove how something unclean can enter heaven.

What you assert here, is simply, incontrovertibly, contrary to Scripture.

A person can enter heaven with a scant “black mark” on his soul as was the case with the good thief.

 

[PRmerger]

Purgatory is not mentioned at all.

Neither is the Trinity.

Nor the fact that there are 27 books in the NT.

Nor the hypostatic union.

Nor that there will be no further public revelation.

Nor that revelation ended with the death of the last apostle.

And yet, presumably, you embrace all of the above, yes?

It simply says that he went to Paradise. And this is confirmed by what the Catholic priest Father Echert is quoted as saying.

Of course. Very Catholic to assert that the Good Thief is in heaven. In fact, in Catholic tradition we even know his name: St. Dismas.

Further, if he was completely cleansed of his sins by going to confession, then there was no stain on his soul after confession and there was no need of Purgatory.

Egg-zactly! Very Catholic, this!

I don’t doubt that you believe in Purgatory. But Orthodox don’t adhere to this teaching. To prove this all you have to do is to read a little about what they teach. To start, read the book: Why do we Reject Purgatory by HH Pope Shenouda III.
Briefly, their argument makes the following points (elaborated on in the book):

1. Purgatory is against the doctrine of Atonement and Redemption
2. Purgatory is against the doctrine of Salvation
3. Purgatory is against the sacrament of repentance

Whether they call it purgatory or not, they believe that nothing unclean can enter heaven, as Scripture asserts, and they believe in a purification after death that occurs if one has a venial sin upon his soul.

 

[zz912]

A person can enter heaven with a scant “black mark” on his soul as was the case with the good thief. The good thief admitted that he was a sinner and yet Our Divine Lord, Jesus Christ said that he would be in paradise that very day in spite of his past sins. There was no mention of purgatory for the good thief. It was only declared that he would be in paradise that very day.

Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be **with me **in paradise.”

Did Jesus go to Heaven on Good Friday?

Answer: No. He didn’t ascend to Heaven until 40 days after Easter Sunday. So where did Jesus go? Jesus went to preach to the spirits “in prison”. The waiting place/state of the righteous who died before Christ was called “paradise” and “Abraham’s Bosom”.

 

[Gorgias]

Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be **with me **in paradise.”

Did Jesus go to Heaven on Good Friday?

Answer: No. He didn’t ascend to Heaven until 40 days after Easter Sunday.

No, that’s incorrect. Jesus tells Mary Magdelene (early on Easter Sunday) not to touch him because he hasn’t yet ascended to the Father… but he later tells Thomas to “put your finger into my wounds.” The logical implication is that, between the two conversations, he had already ascended to the Father.

 

[KjetilK]

So the good thief did not have to go to Purgatory, even though he had sinned and had a scant “black mark” on his soul ?

Why do you assume that Purgatory ‘takes time’?

 

[JMM1957]

No, that’s incorrect. Jesus tells Mary Magdelene (early on Easter Sunday) not to touch him because he hasn’t yet ascended to the Father… but he later tells Thomas to “put your finger into my wounds.” The logical implication is that, between the two conversations, he had already ascended to the Father.

Could you please explain the first part about Mary Magdelene and how she shouldn’t touch Jesus, I always questioned what this meant? Thanks.

 

[zz912]

Originally Posted by Gorgias View Post
No, that’s incorrect. Jesus tells Mary Magdelene (early on Easter Sunday) not to touch him because he hasn’t yet ascended to the Father… but he later tells Thomas to “put your finger into my wounds.” The logical implication is that, between the two conversations, he had already ascended to the Father.

Could you please explain the first part about Mary Magdelene and how she shouldn’t touch Jesus, I always questioned what this meant? Thanks.

That’s not a correct understanding of the passage with MM. The best translation or understanding is “do not continue clinging to Me”. It implies she recognized Him, and cast herself at His feet and was holding to Him. He was telling her to let go of Him, because she had work to do (tell the others about His resurrection).

Jesus didn’t ascend twice. (and even if He did, my point is still proven, He didn’t ascend to Heaven on Good Friday, Holy Saturday, or even Easter Sunday, so Jesus’ proclamation that the Good Thief would be with Him in paradise that day doesn’t mean heaven).

 

[Techno2000]

A person can enter heaven with a scant “black mark” on his soul as was the case with the good thief. The good thief admitted that he was a sinner and yet Our Divine Lord, Jesus Christ said that he would be in paradise that very day in spite of his past sins. There was no mention of purgatory for the good thief. It was only declared that he would be in paradise that very day.

http://www.orthodoxroad.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/resurrection2-675x1024.jpgJesus and the Good thief went to Sheol, the upper part was a Paradise, the lower part Hell.

 

[pablope]

How do you deduce from the story in the Bible that he went to Purgatory. Purgatory is not mentioned at all. It simply says that he went to Paradise.

These Icons show where the Good thief went…on Abraham’s Bosom:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=725074

Further, if he was completely cleansed of his sins by going to confession, then there was no stain on his soul after confession and there was no need of Purgatory.

 

[steve_b]

The poster claims that “The soul does not sleep”. Is that true or not?

Here’s why I said that.

"Those who hold to “soul sleep” assert that once a person dies, he enters a state of unconsciousness until the Second Coming. Some use this claim to argue that saints can’t intercede for us, since they supposedly are asleep.Isaias (Isaiah) 14:9-10 tells us that the dead are agitated and are speaking. 1 Kings (1 Samuel) 28 tells of Samuel conversing with Saul after his death. In 1 Peter 3:19 , Jesus preaches to souls in prison. Why preach to sleeping spirits? Talk about a bored audience! Try telling the rich man in the story of Lazarus and the rich man Luke 16:19-31 not to worry, since he is just sleeping.

If the dead are asleep, one must ask how Jesus communicated with them during his transfiguration Matthew 17:3 , how they offer our prayers to God Apocalypse (Revelation) 5:8), how they cry out in a loud voice in praise of God Apocalypse (Revelation) 7:10, and how these sleeping, unconscious souls cry out, “How long will it be, holy and true master, before you sit in judgement and avenge our blood on the inhabitants of the earth?” Apocalypse (Revelation) 6:10 . That is a pretty windy statement for someone asleep! Those that have died are more alive than we are and they surround us like a great cloud of witnesses Hebrews 12:1 ."

from Jason Evert, answering 7th day adventist, all emphasis mine

 

[benhur]

How was the good thief able to enter heaven?

or the thief was washed by the blood of the Lamb, and that same day was in Paradise. “he who calls out in the name of the Lord shall be saved” ,and whom he forgives will be separated from his sin as far as the east is from the west , and will be white as snow.

Blessings

PS no mention of purgatory and Paradise is not purgatory, nor was Abraham’s Bosom.

 

[Techno2000]

PS no mention of purgatory and Paradise is not purgatory, nor was Abraham’s Bosom.

 

[Cybophonia]

Because as an Orthodox would put it they had to make something better from all of them going to hell , so they maketh-believe a Purgatory.

 

[KjetilK]

or the thief was washed by the blood of the Lamb, and that same day was in Paradise.

So you say that he was purged?

 

[zz912]

or the thief was washed by the blood of the Lamb, and that same day was in Paradise. “he who calls out in the name of the Lord shall be saved” ,and whom he forgives will be separated from his sin as far as the east is from the west , and will be white as snow.

Blessings

PS no mention of purgatory and Paradise is not purgatory, nor was Abraham’s Bosom.

Is this an infallible statement?

And was Jesus in Heaven on Good Friday?

 

[benhur]

So you say that he was purged?

That is Blood washed. The thief,his old man, his carnality died when he “cried out to the Lord”,and could see the kingdom , even before he was there. He believed, was born again, on the cross, putting to death his stony heart. When he died the old man went to the grave. The new man went straight to paradise, no car wash needed. He had just been to the car washes of car washes.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

Is this an infallible statement?

Only if it is God’s truth

And was Jesus in Heaven on Good Friday?

Thought we discussed this. No, He ascended to heaven taking captivity captive on Ascension Day, but you know this.

What I posted does not suggest otherwise. Maybe this will help: Paradise=Abraham’s Bosom. Neither are purgatory, in my opinion.

Blessings

 

[Marty100]

The Bible proclaims there is only Heaven and Hell.
Thank you all for your answers.

The passages below talk about believers being purged of sin. The Question is when?
My guess is at Baptism or when a person repents to their Lord and Savior.

Catholic teaching is this may take place after death in a place of Purgatory.

Hebrews 1:3
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

Hebrews 10:2
For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

2 Peter 1:9
But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

 

[KjetilK]

That is Blood washed. The thief,his old man, his carnality died when he “cried out to the Lord”,and could see the kingdom , even before he was there. He believed, was born again, on the cross, putting to death his stony heart. When he died the old man went to the grave. The new man went straight to paradise, no car wash needed. He had just been to the car washes of car washes.

Blessings

So he was washed, or purged, then?