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Cybophonia
Guest
I dunno about the RCC but in the EOC according to the Paschal Hours, yes.
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PRmerger
Guest
This is exactly what occurs in purgatory!
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benhur
Guest
Absolutely.
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benhur
Guest
Quite a dissecting of Calvary.This is exactly what occurs in purgatory!
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steve_b
Guest
Who speaks for all the Orthodox?Because *as an Orthodox *would put it they had to make something better from all of them going to hell , so they maketh-believe a Purgatory.
K
KjetilK
Guest
benhur;13268h223:
The disagreement, it seems, is not on the concept of purgatory as such, but on whether or not we need to be purged more than once. I reject OSAS, and anything that derives from that, including that you cannot fall and attain impurity, therefore I believe - as a Lutheran - in purgatory.
I know that I am not perfectly pure, but I have hope that Christ wil purify me, as he purified me in my baptism.
And that, nothing more, nothing less, is the essence of the Roman Catholic teaching of Purgatory. We need cleansing, Christ cleanses us.
The disagreement, it seems, is not on the concept of purgatory as such, but on whether or not we need to be purged more than once. I reject OSAS, and anything that derives from that, including that you cannot fall and attain impurity, therefore I believe - as a Lutheran - in purgatory.
I know that I am not perfectly pure, but I have hope that Christ wil purify me, as he purified me in my baptism.
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steve_b
Guest
Q: How do the Orthodox then explain the following
- Jesus body is in the tomb till Easter Sunday
- Jesus in spirit, immediately
- 1 Pet 3: 18 … being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.
- On Easter Sunday, " 17 Jesus said to her, (Mary Magdalyn) “Do not hold me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brethren and say to them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”a] John 20:17
- Scripture states that Jesus didn’t actually ascend into heaven until forty days after His resurrection (Acts Of Apostles 1:3 , Acts Of Apostles 1:9-11 ).
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benhur
Guest
Hi Kj,
Yes, but it is what we have to do, or others for us, to attain that cleansing that is bothersome.If it were as simple as you say ,He cleanses us. But when you add the duration, and indulgences and prayers trying to effect that duration etc, or that somehow our suffering is propitiating… is reading between the lines.
No has nothing to do with only once purging,for we are purged and purged again thru out our walk on this earth. We also have the judgement seat of Christ for believers , where false works will be purged,at end times , when we have resurrected.
We go beyond hoping for purging , but trusting, believing, that He will do what He said He would do.
Blessings
G
Gorgias
Guest
If, on Easter Sunday, Jesus told Mary Magdelene “I am ascending to my Father”, but He didn’t actually do so until 40 days later… was He lying to Mary?
If, in His appearance to the apostles (prior to the Ascension) He told Thomas to touch His wounds (whereas He told Mary not to, since He hadn’t yet ascended), are you saying that He didn’t ascend to Heaven between these two occurrences?
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Cybophonia
Guest
The Orthodox Church.
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Cybophonia
Guest
“In the grave bodily, but in hades with Thy soul as God: in Paradise with the thief,
and on the throne with the Father and the Spirit wast Thou Who fillest all things,
O Christ the Inexpressible.”
Like this.
Let’s not forget that during this Paschal times, the only one to whom the Holy Fire comes is the Eastern Orthodox Church.
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PRmerger
Guest
I have no idea what this means.
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steve_b
Guest
Why not repost the entire post again, then let’s talk
clicking on The following doesn’t appear to go to the post
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Gorgias
Guest
Apparently, your post seems to have been deleted.
Let’s deal with your assertion, then, that Christ only ascended to the Father 40 days after His resurrection. I demonstrated that, it would seem, He had already done so by the time He spoke with Thomas the first time. Do you have any sources that suggest that Jesus’ first ascension to the Father was 40 days after His resurrection? Short of any substantiation, it would seem that your claim doesn’t hold…
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JMM1957
Guest
Jesus told Mary to “Stop holding on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father.” This can only mean He had not been to heaven since the resurrection. He then says “go to my brothers and tell them, I am going to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.” I don’t think this is to mean He would be going to His Father immediately after talking with Mary, but was a prediction of a future event, as He told the disciples earlier, “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father.” (John 14:12). There are many other verses also where Jesus instructs the disciples that He must return to the Father at some point. Conveying of Jesus message to the disciples by Mary proved to them that Jesus was in fact resurrected and alive, Mary saw Him and spoke with Him.
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steve_b
Guest
My assertion? ewtn.com/faith/teachings/ascna1.htmApparently, your post seems to have been deleted.
Let’s deal with your assertion, then, that Christ only ascended to the Father 40 days after His resurrection. I demonstrated that, it would seem, He had already done so by the time He spoke with Thomas the first time. Do you have any sources that suggest that Jesus’ first ascension to the Father was 40 days after His resurrection? Short of any substantiation, it would seem that your claim doesn’t hold…
J
JMM1957
Guest
Just a followup comment, when Jesus told Mary to “stop holding on to me” it is sometimes explained that Mary was clinging desperately to Jesus as if she wasn’t going to let Him go, ever. But Jesus was implying that He would not be going to heaven immediately and would be on earth for a period of time yet, so that Mary and the disciples would still have ample opportunity to hold on to Him.
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Gorgias
Guest
Yes. Your assertion is that Jesus didn’t go to heaven until the ascension:
steve b:
This link asserts only that Jesus ascended on the 40th day. I’m not questioning that fact. Rather, I’m questioning your assertion that Jesus never ‘actually’ got to heaven for the first time until the Ascension. That’s something the Church doesn’t teach; and that’s what I’m asking you to defend.
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JMM1957
Guest
After reading the footnotes of John 20:17 in the New American Bible, it does appear that the interpretation is that “in the theological sense, Jesus going to the Father to be glorified took place with the resurrection as one action. Therefore, His ascension takes place immediately after talking with Mary.” His ascension after forty days then, was a termination of earthly appearances. So, this is why Jesus was said to have went to preach to the spirits in prison in Spirit (not glorified body) during the three days before His resurrection.
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steve_b
Guest
that link said “The many events between His resurrection and ascension preclude the theory that He ascended on Easter”
I have the Navarre bible set of books. The Navarre commentary on Jn 20:17 writes
“Do not hold me” the use of the negative imperative in the Greek reflected in the new Vulgate (Noli me tenere) indicates that the Lord is telling Mary to release her hold on Him, to let go, since she will have another chance to see Him before His ascension into heaven"
Therefore, it’s NOT my assertion.
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