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Adamski
Guest
I belive in purgatory because the bible says so
1 Corinthians “saved by fire”
1 Corinthians “saved by fire”
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benhur
Guest
Well blood washing is not the same as fire purging
It is like being born again makes us silver when we were once iron. That is due to blood washing justification. Now once silver, we are refined, purged of dross, till Christ sees himself reflected in us, as in a mirror (of silver). That happens thru out this new life and finally I believe at the judgement seat of Christ , after our resurrection.
Seems like Calvary has led to a few subsequent stages, even intermediary “events” (Purgatory, confessional, last rites). The only subsequent stage I know of is the judgement seat of Christ, but even that is not quite atoning but purging.
Blessings
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benhur
Guest
yes ,the judgement seat of Christ. The “day” is not when you die but the “day” of the Lord ,at end times. Bishop Sheen talks of our two judgements. The immediate upon death, and the public, end times one, which is by fire.
Blessings
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Tomdstone
Guest
So you agree with the materials posted on EWTN asserting that Purgatory is “a prison of fire in which nearly all [saved] souls are plunged after
death and in which they suffer the intensest pain.” AFAIK, this is something that the Eastern Orthodox would not agree with.
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zz912
Guest
Are you proclaiming that this teaching of yours is infallible?
Or is it even slightly possible that your interpretation is wrong the Catholic understanding is correct?
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PRmerger
Guest
Very Catholic, this!
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ffg
Guest
I haven’t read all of this thread, so maybe this has been touched already, if so, I apologize.
Sometimes we see / read / or do prayers that are said to be like ‘time off’ in Purgatory.
It always confused me when this was taught because wouldn’t Purgatory be outside of time?
Maybe not
In any case, if someone wants to shed some light on if the Church teaches about time and it’s relationship to Purgatory, I’d be curious.
Take care,
mike
Sometimes we see / read / or do prayers that are said to be like ‘time off’ in Purgatory.
It always confused me when this was taught because wouldn’t Purgatory be outside of time?
Maybe not
In any case, if someone wants to shed some light on if the Church teaches about time and it’s relationship to Purgatory, I’d be curious.
Take care,
mike
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zz912
Guest
The Church stopped using that description for penances and indulgences because of the confusion you describe here. The “time” listed with an indulgence meant the time of normal prayer/penance the indulgence activities were similar to. Say if you took a pilgrimage (back before modern travel and conveniences) to a site and performed an indulgence. This would be listed as equivalent to something like 300 normal days of regular prayer.
It never referred to the length of “time” a soul would spend in purgatory. Hope that helps clear it up.
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benhur
Guest
Yes, I should have said, “in my opinion” as far as the “day” being at end times. I think i correctly stated Sheen’s teaching.
Blessings
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benhur
Guest
Agree. I have heard the taking time off thing also. The other thing beside “outside of time” is the idea that purging is purging, as with silver . Depending on the impurities , it is a set amount of “fire” that is required, no way around it. I have heard that what folks really are to pray for is that it be less painful or forcomfort. It is all problematic to me, this praying for one who is being purged.
Blessings mike
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Gorgias
Guest
Right. In other words, on Easter, He did not “leave the present mode of existence” – this permanent exit from our ‘present mode of existence’ happened definitively at the Ascension. However, that does not imply that He did not go to the Father prior to the Ascension.
On the face of it, your reading of the sentence you quote is untenable. The ‘many events’ are insufficient to posit that their sheer number precludes that they took Jesus 40 days to perform. Therefore, the quote would seem only to be saying that, since there were many events, it cannot be asserted that the Ascension happened on Easter Sunday.
This doesn’t prove your point, though. It simply asserts that there are appearances in the 40 days following the resurrection.
Fine. “The assertion you are making here.”
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Gorgias
Guest
They’re like time off. In other words, the allusion to temporal frameworks is an analogy. It was a helpful analogy – don’t get me wrong! It helped people wrap their heads around a difficult concept. But, it’s not like there are stopwatches in a place called ‘purgatory’, and when your stopwatch goes off, you’re done.
The Church teaches that those destined for heaven may undergo a process of purification prior to entry into heaven. It doesn’t teach that this process is ‘timed’ in any way. In fact, when talking about the ways that our prayers are efficacious, it discusses them only as being ‘partial’ or ‘plenary’ (i.e., ‘partially’ or ‘completely’ aiding the purification process). There’s no current teaching in the Church that attempts to ‘quantify’ the process of purgation.
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Tomdstone
Guest
Here is a link to a book on Purgatory posted at EWTN. Yes, it does say that Purgatory “is a prison of fire in which nearly all [saved] souls are plunged after
death and in which they suffer the intensest pain.”
"So grievous is their suffering that one minute in this awful fire seems
like a century.
St. Thomas Aquinas, the Prince of Theologians, says that the fire of
Purgatory is equal in intensity to the fire of Hell, and that the slightest
contact with it is more dreadful than all the possible sufferings of this
Earth!"
ewtn.com/library/SPIRIT/READRUE.TXT
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steve_b
Guest
You didn’t address the points in #276Right. In other words, on Easter, He did not “leave the present mode of existence” – this permanent exit from our ‘present mode of existence’ happened definitively at the Ascension. However, that does not imply that He did not go to the Father prior to the Ascension.
On the face of it, your reading of the sentence you quote is untenable. The ‘many events’ are insufficient to posit that their sheer number precludes that they took Jesus 40 days to perform. Therefore, the quote would seem only to be saying that, since there were many events, it cannot be asserted that the Ascension happened on Easter Sunday.
This doesn’t prove your point, though. It simply asserts that there are appearances in the 40 days following the resurrection.
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zz912
Guest
So we have competing and disagreeing understandings of this doctrine and these scripture passages. Who does Jesus and the Bible tell us to turn to for resolution of this disagreement so that all can be on the same page? Who should we turn to so we can know the truth?
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eddie_too
Guest
the RCC teaches that purgatory is a time of temporal punishment. I believe that the use of the term temporal punishment is primarily intended to provide a counterpoint to the eternal punishment of hell. the pain of purgatory will not last forever.
the RCC does not address how time is measured in purgatory, but the use of the word temporal certainly implies that it is not a mere experience of different degrees (levels) of pain or punishment experienced for an instant and then over.
the RCC does not address how time is measured in purgatory, but the use of the word temporal certainly implies that it is not a mere experience of different degrees (levels) of pain or punishment experienced for an instant and then over.
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benhur
Guest
Well, as the OT so is the new in this regard. The OT survived and delivered perfectly on all promises, even with doctrinal disagreements. Somebody has it right.
I would not get rid of differing peripheral views , for one of them may be right (and the one held onto in a universal attempt may be wrong).
Blessings
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zz912
Guest
You avoided answering my question. Who does the Bible and Jesus say we should turn to for resolution?
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benhur
Guest
The bible says many things take care of resolution.
If we find fault with a brethren we are to take it to the brother ,and then with a witness and then ultimately to take it to the church. That is for a fault. When apostles disputed, they got together to figure out as in council of Jerusalem. When the apostles heard conflicting views of whom Jesus was, the Father in heaven gave “resolution”. As Job says, ,“God giveth understanding to a man”. Scripture and it’s historical view (tradition) also are to give resolution.
Beyond these the goat and sheep of a matte rare together till His coming.
Blessings
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