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benhur
Guest
Well then can anyone excommunicate anymore since we are not one, amongst C’s and P’s and O’s ?
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benhur
Guest
yes but did I say the exact same thing as you? Are you an extension of the church’s authority ?Its funny how you have to go in a complete circle around what I said just to agree with me.
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steve_b
Guest
that He could barely fit it all in within the 40 days, anyway.
Are you referring to Fr Most’s statement (emphasis mine)
“The many events between His resurrection and ascension preclude the theory that He ascended on Easter. His ascension does not mean that heaven is somewhere up in space. This was a way of making clear that He was leaving the present mode of existence.”
Look at this post as the reference #301
G:
I never said anything about it.
I’ll add another reference
ARTICLE 6
“HE ASCENDED INTO HEAVEN AND IS SEATED AT THE RIGHT HAND OF THE FATHER”
659 "So then the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken to them, was taken up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God."532 Christ’s body was glorified at the moment of his Resurrection, as proved by the new and supernatural properties it subsequently and permanently enjoys.533 But during the forty days when he eats and drinks familiarly with his disciples and teaches them about the kingdom, his glory remains veiled under the appearance of ordinary humanity.534 Jesus’ final apparition ends with the irreversible entry of his humanity into divine glory, symbolized by the cloud and by heaven, where he is seated from that time forward at God’s right hand.535 Only in a wholly exceptional and unique way would Jesus show himself to Paul “as to one untimely born”, in a last apparition that established him as an apostle.536
660 The veiled character of the glory of the Risen One during this time is intimated in his mysterious words to Mary Magdalene: "I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brethren and say to them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God."537 This indicates a difference in manifestation between the glory of the risen Christ and that of the Christ exalted to the Father’s right hand, a transition marked by the historical and transcendent event of the Ascension.
661 This final stage stays closely linked to the first, that is, to his descent from heaven in the Incarnation. Only the one who “came from the Father” can return to the Father: Christ Jesus.538 "No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended from heaven, the Son of man."539 Left to its own natural powers humanity does not have access to the “Father’s house”, to God’s life and happiness.540 Only Christ can open to man such access that we, his members, might have confidence that we too shall go where he, our Head and our Source, has preceded us.541
662 "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."542 The lifting up of Jesus on the cross signifies and announces his lifting up by his Ascension into heaven, and indeed begins it. Jesus Christ, the one priest of the new and eternal Covenant, "entered, not into a sanctuary made by human hands. . . but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf."543 There Christ permanently exercises his priesthood, for he “always lives to make intercession” for “those who draw near to God through him”.544 As “high priest of the good things to come” he is the center and the principal actor of the liturgy that honors the Father in heaven.545
663 Henceforth Christ is seated at the right hand of the Father: "By ‘the Father’s right hand’ we understand the glory and honor of divinity, where he who exists as Son of God before all ages, indeed as God, of one being with the Father, is seated bodily after he became incarnate and his flesh was glorified."546
664 Being seated at the Father’s right hand signifies the inauguration of the Messiah’s kingdom, the fulfillment of the prophet Daniel’s vision concerning the Son of man: "To him was given dominion and glory and kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed."547 After this event the apostles became witnesses of the “kingdom [that] will have no end”.548
**IN BRIEF **
665 Christ’s Ascension marks the definitive entrance of Jesus’ humanity into God’s heavenly domain, whence he will come again (cf. *Acts *1:11); this humanity in the meantime hides him from the eyes of men (cf. *Col *3:3).
666 Jesus Christ, the head of the Church, precedes us into the Father’s glorious kingdom so that we, the members of his Body, may live in the hope of one day being with him for ever.
667 Jesus Christ, having entered the sanctuary of heaven once and for all, intercedes constantly for us as the mediator who assures us of the permanent outpouring of the Holy Spirit.
Code:
532 Mk 16:19.534 Cf. Acts 1:3; 10:41; Mk 16:12; Lk 24:15; Jn 20:14-15; 21:4.
535 Cf. Acts 1:9; 2:33; 7:56; Lk 9:34-35; 24:51; Ex 13:22; Mk 16:19; Ps 110:1.
536 1 Cor 15:8; cf. 9:1; Gal 1:16.
537 Jn 20:17.
538 Cf. Jn 16:28.
539 Jn 3:13; cf. Eph 4:8-10.
540 Jn 14:2.
541 Roman Missal, Preface of the Ascension: “sed ut illuc confideremus, sua membra, nos subsequi quo ipse, caput nostrum principiumque, praecessit.”
542 Jn 12:32.
543 Heb 9:24.
544 Heb 7:25.
545 Heb 9:11; cf. Rev 4:6-11.
546 St. John Damascene, Defide orth. 4,2
G 94,1104C.547 Dan 7:14.
548 Nicene Creed.
I let those references do the talking.
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Gorgias
Guest
Keep reading.
I’m talking about the rest of the sentence: not just “I have not yet ascended to the Father,” but what follows. I’ll quote it for you, from the NAB:
"Jesus said to her, “Stop holding on to me,* for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am going to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”
Jesus doesn’t say “I will ascend to the Father in 40 days”, or even just “I will go” (in the future tense). Rather, He uses the present tense: “I am ascending.” (The NAB substitutes ‘going’ for ‘ascending’ – ἀναβαίνω – here.)
J
JMM1957
Guest
The only official Church comment on this passage that I know of, comes from the footnotes of John 20:17 in the NAB. It says in the theological sense, Jesus going to the Father to be glorified occurs simultaneously with the resurrection as one event. This is how John and the other writers would have understood it, based on how Jesus spoke to them about His future resurrection and the giving of the Spirit. We can see that on Easter evening, Jesus was already glorified and able to give the Spirit to the disciples (breathing on them). The actual ascension 40 days later that was witnessed by the disciples, was seen as a termination of earthly appearances. Imo, I don’t see this as a big issue where someone must be right and wrong.Keep reading.
I’m talking about the rest of the sentence: not just “I have not yet ascended to the Father,” but what follows. I’ll quote it for you, from the NAB:
"Jesus said to her, “Stop holding on to me,* for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am going to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”
Jesus doesn’t say “I will ascend to the Father in 40 days”, or even just “I will go” (in the future tense). Rather, He uses the present tense: “I am ascending.” (The NAB substitutes ‘going’ for ‘ascending’ – ἀναβαίνω – here.)
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zz912
Guest
That’s not what Jesus said though. Jesus said “as the Father has sent Me, so I now send you” (meaning the Apostles). And how did the Father send Jesus? With ALL authority.
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zz912
Guest
Yes, Catholics still have authority to excommunicate members of the Church. As P’s and O’s are not formally members of the Church in COMMUNION with the Bishop of Rome, there is nothing to ex-COMMUNICATE.
(capitalizing for emphasis, not to indicate yelling).
We don’t acknowledge there being other churches, as there is only one Church that Jesus built, so we can’t excommunicate those who are members of other ecclesial communities not in communion with the Church.
Now c’mon, you DO have to admit this is a fundamental problem for those in the Protestant world, the issue of authority. There simply exists NO authority which actually corresponds to what Jesus and the Apostles describe.
J
JMM1957
Guest
The Church is the extension of Christ’s authority here on earth, that’s fact. Jesus has not come back down to earth physically for 2000 years to preach to us again, although his promised Spirit (the advocate) has been active in the Church for that same period of time, we are not orphans. Those that are part of the one true Church (because Church is people), do have the command from Our Lord to go out and teach others the Truth.
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peace2u2
Guest
From a Scriptural standpoint:The Bible proclaims there is only Heaven and Hell.
Thank you all for your answers.
Matthew 5:48 - be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Hebrews 12:14 - strive for that holiness without which cannot see God.
James 3:2 - we all fall short in many respects.
Revelation 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven.
1 John 5:16-17 - degrees of sins distinguished.
James 1:14-15 - when sin reaches maturity gives birth to death.
2 Samuel 12:13-14 - David, though forgiven, still punished for sin.
Matthew 5:26 - you will not be released until paid last penny.
Matthew 12:32 - sin against Holy Spirit unforgiven in this age or next.
Matthew 12:36 - account for every idle word on judgment day.
2 Maccabees 12:44-46 - atoned for dead to free them from sin.
1 Corinthians 3:15 - suffer loss, but saved as through fire.
1 Peter 3:18-20;l 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in prison.
2 Timothy 1:16-18 - Paul prays for dead friend Onesiphorus
1 Corinthians 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people baptizing for the dead.
Obviously, we all fall short, we are all sinners in need of perfecting if not here on earth then in Purgatory.
A good article “teach your children to pray for the holy souls” by Fr. Andy Davy.
marian.org/imh/issue/Fall_2015/index.html#24
prayforsouls.org/assets/pdf/newsletter/V6_N9_201509.pdf
Oh and by the way the word “Bible”, where is that exact word found in the Sacred Scriptures?
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Gorgias
Guest
Hmm… in my mind, was I conflating you and [user]JMM1957[/user]…?
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Gorgias
Guest
The footnotes in a particular translation of the Bible don’t constitute an “official Church comment” – they’re simply the comments of the translators…
Which is what my point to you was, in rebuttal to your assertion that Jesus was never in the presence of the Father until the Ascension.
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rinnie
Guest
Sometimes I think that you have to use common sense and truth in your heart to understand things. I think this will help.The Bible proclaims there is only Heaven and Hell.
Thank you all for your answers.
Be honest with yourself, how many times have you gone to a funeral and thought I can stand before God to the best of my knowledge and say I KNOW when this person died they were indeed sinless in all accounts.
Now when I say this, here is what you must think. They had no desire for money, lust, smoking, shopping, etc. every single material thing in this world that brings temporal happiness. All they wanted was God and God only.
Very few people can say that before death they know people were in this place. Not to say it is not possible, For God said it is, but few can walk the narrow path.
With this said, Purgatory is the process when we not only are not in a state of Mortal Sin, we must rid ourselves of our old selves, which is the lust for it.
Like everyone in this world who struggles with some kind of addiction, you CAN BEST the addiction, but you know you are one second away from going backwards.
purgatory is the place where you get to see GOD face to face, What a wonderful site this must be. But then you don’t get to be with him, until that LOVE and want for him becomes the ONLY thing you want.
That is why Purgatory is such a place of suffering, It is your temptation inside of you for any sin that must be gone.
But when you come to the point that it is GOD and only GOD that you want, then you are considered a SAINT and deemed for heaven.
Now ask yourself, truthfully, whom do you know that if they would have lived another day, would have had not one craving for some kind of sin.
Example a man who had a beautiful nurse walk in, built to the wildest temptation of his imagination, not have just one evil thought, even though he knew it would not nor could not happen.
That my friend is the place you need to be to be a Saint, and be deemed for heaven.
That is why Roman Catholics are more realistic to what a Saint truly is.
As loving and wonderful as our Pope is, could he be ready right this moment???
Quite Possibly, but maybe not? I believe even he will have to have a little purgatory time, I am sure much less then many, yet I am not God nor can judge. He indeed may be at that place of Sainthood even at this moment.
Hope this helps to show you how we view it, And why as much as we love our Loved ones we always pray for them.
I truly believe that a baby is a prime example of a SAINT in this world who automatically get in. To me no doubt! Simply because I believe sinless is the reason.
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PRmerger
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benhur
Guest
Not sure what part you disagree with .Was the “we” as we are His fingers on the Earth ? The apostles are to make disciples even of all nations. We are to be disciples. A disciple imitates , does as the “teacher” (apostles). WE are priests notwithstanding specific giftings and offices.
Blessings
B
benhur
Guest
Hi zz,
So you can not stop a put out Catholic from going say to an O church or an P church ?
O’s and P’s can excommunicate, but you are right a baptist might perhaps find a home in a say Lutheran church but maybe not, depending on what he did. JW’s certainly “put out” folks with as much authority as C’s.
Blessings
B
benhur
Guest
Amen.
J
JMM1957
Guest
The footnotes are obviously not infallible teaching, but they do convey the believed meaning of the verse by the Church. So, they are more than just comments by any person. In order to have the Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur confirmations, certain books such as the Bible that will be read by the faithful as promoting authoritative Church teaching must have doctrinal and moral agreement by the Church. The reviewing party of the NAB certainly takes into consideration the footnotes to the verses, as there needs to be an interpretation done that is in harmony with Church teaching. The meaning of a particular verse can have a large impact on doctrinal understanding. I do realize that not **every **verse of Scripture has a direct link to a doctrine of faith or morals.The footnotes in a particular translation of the Bible don’t constitute an “official Church comment” – they’re simply the comments of the translators…
Which is what my point to you was, in rebuttal to your assertion that Jesus was never in the presence of the Father until the Ascension.
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