Why do Catholics believe Mary is a "virgin"?

  • Thread starter Thread starter WhoDatChristian
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Sorry but my understanding is correct you are wrong. Period
So, according to your understanding, Jesus will not sit at the right hand of God forever?

“But this man offering one sacrifice for sins, for ever sitteth on the right hand of God, from henceforth expecting, until (eos) his enemies be made his footstool.” – Hebrews 10.12-13
 
I came on this forum to learn, not to be insulted, and no, your emoticon does not automatically make it better.
I wonder if it 's for more than to “learn”. Are you leaning toward Catholicism?? Praise be!!! I have to believe this. I would NEVER become a “baptist”, and therefore would NEVER go on a baptist forum.😛
 
You’ve still yet to prove anything that you’ve said using either Scripture or history.
I have but you nor any of the other Catholics here will accept it, therefore I will be wrong until I come to the dark side. Ops did I say until.
 
I have but you nor any of the other Catholics here will accept it, therefore I will be wrong until I come to the dark side. Ops did I say until.
Until does not have the same meaning as Eos. You are going only by an English translation. The Bible itself is flawless. It’s translations are not. Not every word in every language can be translated perfectly into English. Surely you realize that and are just playing dumb?

Also, way to not answer any of my questions or any of the points I’ve raised. 👍
 
Sorry but my understanding is correct you are wrong. Period
If what you state was true, you would be able to refute or at least counter with an argument. Than you could at least say how you arrived at your understanding. But as it stands you have no true understanding.
 
If what you state was true, you would be able to refute or at least counter with an argument. Than you could at least say how you arrived at your understanding. But as it stands you have no true understanding.
You won’t accept it so why refute it or counter with an argument.

I believe she wasn’t you believe she way so be it. We will never agree on this.
 
You won’t accept it so why refute it or counter with an argument.

I believe she wasn’t you believe she way so be it. We will never agree on this.
You have no reason for your belief, though. That’s like if someone tried to say, “The sky is neon green.” And then, when someone refuted that statement with, “No, the sky is blue,” the reply they receive is, “You won’t accept it so why refute it with a counter-argument? I believe the sky is neon green and you don’t. So be it. We will never agree on this.” Well, why won’t you agree with me that the sky is blue when I have evidence that it is?
Why won’t you, who have no evidence, agree with us that Mary is a virgin when we have evidence that she is?
 
You have no reason for your belief, though. That’s like if someone tried to say, “The sky is neon green.” And then, when someone refuted that statement with, “No, the sky is blue,” the reply they receive is, “You won’t accept it so why refute it with a counter-argument? I believe the sky is neon green and you don’t. So be it. We will never agree on this.” Well, why won’t you agree with me that the sky is blue when I have evidence that it is?
Why won’t you, who have no evidence, agree with us that Mary is a virgin when we have evidence that she is?
Because there is no evidence that she stayed a virgin and thats may final word.
She did not say a virgin.
Personally if they want to believe the sky is neon green then let them believe it. It don’t bother me at all. Just like it don’t bother me what you want to believe.
You have your belief and I have mine. One day we will find out who is right.
 
Because there is no evidence that she stayed a virgin and thats may final word.
Yes, there is. The Bible supports the fact that she had no other children in John 19 when Jesus entrusts Mary to St. John’s care. He would not have done so had she had other sons as you contend. The betrothed Mary would not have asked the angel how she would become pregnant in Luke 1 if she had not intended to remain a virgin after her marriage. History supports these assertions. Your position has absolutely no evidence. Our position has an absolute mountain of historical evidence.
She did not say a virgin.
Which you’ve still not proven…
Personally if they want to believe the sky is neon green then let them believe it. It don’t bother me at all. Just like it don’t bother me what you want to believe.
Why did you even get on this forum, for people who believe Mary is a perpetual virgin (Catholics), and assert your (unsupported) position that Mary is not a virgin in the first place if what we believe doesn’t bother you?
You have your belief and I have mine. One day we will find out who is right.
Why do we have to wait for “one day” when we have today? Provide your evidence that she is not a virgin. We have provided plenty of evidence for the fact that she is a virgin, but you have provided no evidence (other than that which has been easily countered) that she is not a virgin. So go ahead. Provide your undeniable evidence that she is not a virgin. You must have some, right? Otherwise you would not be so vehement in denying her virginity?
 
+JMJ+
Because there is no evidence that she stayed a virgin and thats may final word.
She did not say a virgin.
Personally if they want to believe the sky is neon green then let them believe it. It don’t bother me at all. Just like it don’t bother me what you want to believe.
You have your belief and I have mine. One day we will find out who is right.
Wow.

I mean wow.

Why are you posting here then?
 
+JMJ+

Wow.

I mean wow.

Why are you posting here then?
Lets see its says non-Catholic religions.

Why are you here?

By the way I did not but in bold letters “thats may final word.” Please don’t mess with my postings in that way.
 
Lets see its says non-Catholic religions.

Why are you here?
That’s because it is a place for people from non-Catholic religions to ask questions about Catholicism and receive answers from Catholics. You haven’t asked any questions or accepted any answers from Catholics. All that you’ve done is make baseless assertions and accusations against the Virgin Mother of Jesus Christ. So, really, why are you here?
By the way I did not but in bold letters “thats may final word.” Please don’t mess with my postings in that way.
I think they were just trying to emphasize what you said…
 
you call me immatury but you are the one acting in that way by saying its willful ignorance and that I am laughing at myself which would at least be logical.
I agree with you that immature thinking has nothing to do with age. A man who is old enough to know better can still be immature in mind, digging in heels, refusing to look at evidence and stubbornly repeat the same refrain over and over with no support. It really does come across as willful ignorance. I have seen children do the same when they stuff their fingers into their ears and recite “I don’t want to hear it, I don’t want to hear it”. This refusal, unfortunately, is not necessarily related to age. If it were, we might expect people to grow out of it, but clearly all of them do not.
Mary was a virgin before and during the birth of Jesus but after that she was not. I don’t understand why it is so hard for Catholics to accept the fact that Mary had sex, which is what God intended for a husband and wife to have and is in no way a sin.
If you do not understand, it is because you are not reading the posts in this thread. All of it has been explained to you. That is why it seems that you refues to understand. An intelligent person is able to understand the position of the opponent, even if he does not agree with it.
There is nothing in the Bible that indicates she did not have other children or that she stayed a virgin all her life.
Well, we read it differently, don’t we? 😃
It seems to me that Catholics put Mary equal to Jesus. There were only 3 people who were born or created without sin Adam and Eve, and Jesus. Yes Mary was born like the rest of us with sin.
Let’s not get the immaculate conception into this thread. You seem to be already overwhelmed and unable to understand what has already been presented, without adding more to the mix.
 
That’s because it is a place for people from non-Catholic religions to ask questions about Catholicism and receive answers from Catholics. You haven’t asked any questions or accepted any answers from Catholics. All that you’ve done is make baseless assertions and accusations against the Virgin Mother of Jesus Christ. So, really, why are you here?

I think they were just trying to emphasize what you said…
Its a place for discussion to debate one another in a civil manner. I have asked many questions here on the CAF just not on this thread.

Where in the Bible does it say she stayed a virgin? It don’t.

So I must accept what the CC teaches even if I disagree?

I can only ask questions and make no comment?
 
Its a place for discussion to debate one another in a civil manner. I have asked many questions here on the CAF just not on this thread.
Then why did you even get on this thread in the first place if all that you wanted to do was make baseless assertions and accusations against the Mother of Christ and refuse to even consider our evidence against your false belief?
Where in the Bible does it say she stayed a virgin?
It doesn’t say it loud and clear, but it definitely implies it in Luke 1.34 and John 19.26-27 for reasons I have already discussed and clarified in detail. The Bible implies many things that we accept as necessary to our Faith, such as the Trinity. Where in the Bible does it say “the Holy Trinity”? “It don’t.” But it definitely strongly implies it.
It don’t.
You mean it doesn’t?
So I must accept what the CC teaches even if I disagree?
I didn’t say that. But you completely refuse to even consider our belief, which is what is done in honest discussion and debate.
I can only ask questions and make no comment?
Maybe if your comments had any evidence or if you were even a little willing to even begin to consider our evidence.
 
If you only know how many times I and other non-Catholics have had the same kind of responce from Catholics here. You know the :rotfl: but nothing is said to the Catholics .

.

/QUOTE]

rev kevin ,
I stand by every word of my posts to you ( # 400 & 404 ) , why shouldn’t I ?
Your explanation for your inapprporiate & unenlightening response ( your post # 402 ) is that because OTHER people have treated you rudely then it’s just swell to treat me rudely ! And you wonder WHY I asked how old you are ? And if I had assumed , I wouldn’t have asked , I made it clear that you can’t excuse your thoroughly boorish and unenlightening behavior because of your age . Let me make this clear , if you act immaturely , someone will question your age . AT least I directly engage the very people who treat me discourteously ,not some innocent surrogate . Clear reasoning on your part , though . You are a Victim! Apparently it gives you license to treat anyone rudely , how convenient . Not logical , but convenient .
Some advice , as long as VICTIMHOOD is the source of your empowerment ,Recovery is the enemy & is destructive to your sense of self .
The 1st Bible you quoted was a Catholic Bible ? In post # 403 you quote 4 Bibles , but the 1st was designated KJV . Does KJV stand for King James Version ? Since when is that a Catholic Bible . By the way , you know I’m a Catholic , what religion are you ?
I didn’t assume , You actually DID act immaturely & I CALLED you on it . If you don’t like that , comport yourself in a more mature manner !
RE: wilful ignorance , there is a question mark at the end of the sentence . I asked a question , & you had an opportunity to clarify …
RE : laughing at yourself , look at the sentence again , I am asking you if you are laughing at yourself , that’s why there is a ? at the end of that sentence !
And , if you were in fact laughing at yourself , why would it not be logical ?
I’m not attacking you , BUT I am holding you responsible for your DISRESPECTFUL non-response . You started this & I am simply holding your feet to the fire !! If you don’t like it , COMPORT yourself better !
But , to the real issues . You still haven’t addressed my explanation of Mary’s Perpetual Virginity . You don’t want to acknowkledge that all Consecrated Perpetuall Virgins serving in the Temple were EXPECTED to be Lifelong Virgins , even after they were married .These Virgins were supposed to be ritually married ! Why these youg women were married to MUCH Older men . These were NOT NORMal marriages . Why do you never offer any refutation that these older men WERE EXPECTED to honor their wives VOW of PERPETUAL VIRGINITY ? These women were married to these much older men to ensure that these women kept their vow of virginity . You keep saying that Mary and Joseph had a normal marriage , then why was she married off to a much older man ( as were her sister virgins in the Temple )? Does that sound like a normal marriage to you ? Why was this special class of women ( Temple virgins ) treated DIFFERENTLY than the other young single women of Israel ? Was it the Jewish custom to marry all their young women to much older men ? How is that the most efficient way to ensure the propogation of their tribe ? Maybe because it was not intended to ! You don’t seem familiar with some of the Jewish customs of this era . If you doubt my explanation , ask a Jewish Rabbi ( preferably Orthodox ) about this , & make sure you give him the correct time frrame .
WE Catholics endorse SEX IN MARRIAGE ! Marriage is even a Sacrament to us . But , your Bible translation is incorrect and that naturally leads to faulty exegesis . Many , including Randy Carson , have tried to point this out to you . You do realize that not only the Catholic Church believes in Mary’s Perpetual Virginity , but so does the Orthodox Church , the Lutherans ( and why shouldn’t they, Martin Luther did ) , John Calvin and Zwingli ! This has been settled ! What do you think you bring NEW and FRESH to the PARTY ? You act as though no one before the modern era had these questions & actually addressed them ! Believe it or not , they did ! By the way , what is your authority to interpret Scripture accurately ( i.e. , authoritively ) ?
Mary’s Perpetual Virginity was even pre-figured in the Old Testament .
Why don’t you address my challenge regarding Protestants cutting themselves off from 2 of the 3 sources of Truth , Sacred Tradition & the Magisterium ? Why is your Bible lighter than ours ? You do know why Luther excised 7 Books from the Bible , don’t you ?
Why would God choose a stained or impure vessel to carry HIs Son( You claimed Mary sinned )? And after His Son was born , why would he allow a man to enter the Holy Of Holies ? Why was Joseph WORTHY to be where God had been ?Our position is actually more humble than yours , we don’t think any man was worthy to be where God had been , not even a rightous man like Joseph . And we Catholics hold Joseph in high regard .
I am all grown up , that’s why I don’t countenance disrespect from you ! Clear ?
So the ball is in your court . Are you going to show us that you really got game ? So far , you are all heat and no light ,or maybe the more appropriate analogy would be , all hat and no cattle ! Rotfl in the context you used it is for children and/or someone who has Nothing to contribute . We are waiting .
PS It’s hard for us to believe Mary had sex because it simply wasn’t in her job description ! If Joseph & Mary were meant to have sex , why was Joseph in trouble when the Priests found her pregnant ? Joseph and Mary m a betrothed couple would not have been the first couple in Jewish history to have sex before the wedding ceremony . Joseph was in trouble because he was NEVER supposed to have sex with Mary , because she was a Consecrated Virgin ! Do you know what that meant to the Jews of their erea ?
 
Here is a question that I should have posted as an earlier follow-up, would anyone be able to direct me to a good book regarding the oral history of the Catholic church? Considering this is the basis for the perpetual virginity of Mary, I am now genuinely curious about how this has been passed through history?
Mary Through the Centurys by Dr.Pelikan
 
To charge that my beliefs are corrupted by Satan is quite a statement.
If you place your personal feeling aside and re-read what was said, you will find its a {question?} Not a personal statement aimed at you!

This wording was used by Pope Paul 6th “Smoke of satan” in the 60’s in regards to the Catholic Church.

The serpent found his way in GODS GARDEN, What in the world makes anyone believe he could not enter any church? Protestants have been writting on this for decades also. Not new by any means.

Council of Basil first apporved the Immaculate Conception is was denied as Valid by the CC. The Immaculate Conception was held in high regard dating back to the early 1300 century,

But lets not confuse the Immaculate Conception with Virgin Birth.

google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBsQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.catholicapologetics.info%2Fapologetics%2Fgeneral%2Fmary.htm&ei=Kb–TYb4F8u4twf6hYW9BQ&usg=AFQjCNF8qYT4wwhnHfMjq75Eg57dm7V6CA

Irenaeus
The Virgin Mary, being obedient to his word, received from an angel the glad tidings that she would bear God (Against Heresies, 5:19:1 [A.D. 189]).

Hippolytus
[T]o all generations they [the prophets] have pictured forth the grandest subjects for contemplation and for action. Thus, too, they preached of the advent of God in the flesh to the world, his advent by the spotless and God-bearing (theotokos) Mary in the way of birth and growth, and the manner of his life and conversation with men, and his manifestation by baptism, and the new birth that was to be to all men, and the regeneration by the laver [of baptism] (Discourse on the End of the World 1 [A.D. 217]).

Gregory the Wonderworker
For Luke, in the inspired Gospel narratives, delivers a testimony not to Joseph only, but also to Mary, the Mother of God, and gives this account with reference to the very family and house of David (Four Homilies 1 [A.D. 262]).

It is our duty to present to God, like sacrifices, all the festivals and hymnal celebrations; and first of all, [the feast of] the Annunciation to the holy Mother of God, to wit, the salutation made to her by the angel, “Hail, full of grace!” (ibid., 2).

Peter of Alexandria
They came to the church of the most blessed Mother of God, and ever-virgin Mary, which, as we began to say, he had constructed in the western quarter, in a suburb, for a cemetery of the martyrs (The Genuine Acts of Peter of Alexandria [A.D. 305]).

Methodius
Hail to you forever, you virgin Mother of God, our unceasing joy, for unto you do I again return. . . . Hail, you fount of the Son’s love for man. . . . Wherefore, we pray you, the most excellent among women, who boast in the confidence of your maternal honors, that you would unceasingly keep us in remembrance. O holy Mother of God, remember us, I say, who make our boast in you, and who in august hymns celebrate your memory, which will ever live, and never fade away (Oration on Simeon and Anna 7 [A.D. 305]).

Cyril of Jerusalem
The Father bears witness from heaven to his Son. The Holy Spirit bears witness, coming down bodily in the form of a dove. The archangel Gabriel bears witness, bringing the good tidings to Mary. The Virgin Mother of God bears witness (Catechetical Lectures 10:19 [A.D. 350]).

Ephraim the Syrian
Though still a virgin she carried a child in her womb, and the handmaid and work of his wisdom became the Mother of God (Songs of Praise 1:20 [A.D. 351]).

Athanasius
The Word begotten of the Father from on high, inexpressibly, inexplicably, incomprehensibly, and eternally, is he that is born in time here below of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God (The Incarnation of the Word of God 8 [A.D. 365]).

Epiphanius of Salamis
Being perfect at the side of the Father and incarnate among us, not in appearance but in truth, he [the Son] reshaped man to perfection in himself from Mary the Mother of God through the Holy Spirit (The Man Well-Anchored 75 [A.D. 374]).

Ambrose of Milan
The first thing which kindles ardor in learning is the greatness of the teacher. What is greater than the Mother of God? What more glorious than she whom Glory Itself chose? (The Virgins 2:2[7] [A.D. 377]).

Gregory of Nazianz
If anyone does not agree that holy Mary is Mother of God, he is at odds with the Godhead (Letter to Cledonius the Priest 101 [A.D. 382]).

Jerome
As to how a virgin became the Mother of God, he [Rufinus] has full knowledge; as to how he himself was born, he knows nothing (Against Rufinus 2:10 [A.D. 401]).

Theodore of Mopsuestia
“When, therefore, they ask, ‘Is Mary mother of man or Mother of God?’ we answer, ‘Both!’ The one by the very nature of what was done and the other by relation” (The Incarnation 15 [A.D. 405]).

Cyril of Alexandria
I have been amazed that some are utterly in doubt as to whether or not the holy Virgin is able to be called the Mother of God. For if our Lord Jesus Christ is God, how should the holy Virgin who bore him not be the Mother of God? (Letter to the Monks of Egypt 1 [A.D. 427]).

John Cassian
You cannot then help admitting that the grace comes from God. It is God, then, who has given it. But it has been given by our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore the Lord Jesus Christ is God. But if he is God, as he certainly is, then she who bore God is the Mother of God (On the Incarnation of Christ Against Nestorius 2:2 [A.D. 429]).

google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=5&ved=0CD8QFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.catholic.com%2Flibrary%2FMary_Ever_Virgin.asp&ei=j8G-TbnjHZK2twfq5YDZBQ&usg=AFQjCNFaIuM4aMo-1ZKtH1HZjZMCZMYXPA
 
Here’s a geart link by Orthodox Apologetics.

google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CB4QFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Forthodox-apologetics.blogspot.com%2F2010%2F07%2Fmary-according-to-bible.html&ei=0dW-TeaUDdGgtge47sHnCQ&usg=AFQjCNH2EWgQZA1yGTPAekV-x6NtVfXK8A

Lutherans agree dogmatically with Catholics and Orthodox on the perpetual virginity of Mary. As I’ve showed

Queen of Heaven:

And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. (Revelation 12:1)

Mary here is wearing a Crown of Twelve Stars. As we saw in Joseph’s dream, the stars are a symbol of Israel. Mary is wearing the Crown of Israel. However, the New Israel is the people of the Church, the Kingdom of Heaven. Christ says:

Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.” (John 18:36)

The kingdom of New Israel is the kingdom of heaven. Thus, Mary is here presented as wearing the Crown of New Israel- she is the Queen of Heaven.

Another important fact is that Jesus is a king after the order of David- he is a Davidic king. Who were the queens of Davidic kings? Interestingly, it was not their wives. It was their mother. Consider this passage:

Say to the king and the queen mother: "Take a lowly seat, for your beautiful crown has come down from your here. {Jeremiah]

New Eve:

St. John writes:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. (John 1:1-3)

He opens by discussing the beginning of the world, opening with “in the beginning”. Remember that ancient Jews knew the Hebrew Bible from memory. They would immediately think of:

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. (Genesis 1:1)

Further parallels are drawn:

In him was life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. (John 1:4-5)

And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. And God saw that the light was good. And God separated the light from the darkness. (Genesis 1:3-4)

Thus, John is writing to parallel the opening chapters of Genesis. He counts the days:

Start with one in John’s opening.

The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! (John 1:29)

Two.

The next day again John was standing with two of his disciples. (John 1:35)

Three.

The next day Jesus decided to go to Galilee. He found Philip and said to him, “Follow me.” (John 1:43)

Four.

On the third day there was a wedding at Cana in Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there. (John 2:1)

Seven.

The wedding at Cana occurs on the seventh day. On the seventh day, Mary asks Him to do something:

When the wine ran out, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.” (John 2:3)

Jesus does a miracle:

When the master of the feast tasted the water now become wine, and did not know where it came from (though the servants who had drawn the water knew), the master of the feast called the bridegroom (John 2:9)

We know from the Scripture that Jesus is the New Adam:

What does Eve do to Adam on the seventh day?

So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate. (Genesis 3:6)

On the seventh day after the opening of Genesis, Eve entices Adam to commit his first sin. On the seventh day after the opening of John, who is drawing our minds back to Genesis, Mary entices the New Adam to perform His first miracle. The conclusion is clear: Mary is the New Eve. One can consider also Mary’s obedience to Gabriel vs. Eve’s obedience to Satan:

But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” (Genesis 3:4-5)

So, Eve obeys the evil angel Satan, who entices her to bring death into the world.

And the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. {Luke 1:30}

Jesus is the Life. Mary consents to the message of the good angel, Gabriel, in bringing Life into the world. Eve consents to the message of the evil angel, Satan, in bringing death into the world. It is clear what the Bible is doing. Mary is clearly the New Eve.

Most Holy

Orthodox Christians believe that by the grace of God, Mary was preserved from the stain of personal sin. We believe that she, in part because of this, is exalted above all the holy angels. What is the evidence for this? Most of it derives from Luke 1:28.

And he came to her and said, “Hail” (Luke 1:28)

Ever-Virgin

Finally, Orthodox Christians believe that Mary remained a virgin all of her life. The traditional Orthodox position is that the “brothers of Jesus” were actually step-brothers from Joseph’s earlier marriage (he was a widower). Does this position find any support in Scripture? Yes! Let us first address the two indications put forward by Protestants that Mary did not remain a virgin.

Does it ever say that these other children are the children of Mary? No, it says that they are the “brothers of Jesus”. Could this mean stepbrothers? Yes, it could, unless you want to argue that Joseph was actually Jesus’ blood father.

PAX!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top