Why do Catholics believe that all non-Catholics hold the same beliefs?

[rinnie]

You mean to tell me that they did not teach you this is a Catholic College?

196 ccc Our presentation of the faith will follow the Apostles Creed which constitutes as it were the OLDEST ROMAN CATECHISM. The The presentation will be completed however by constant references to the Nicene Creed which is more explicit and more detailed.

You are telling me that they did not teach you in a Catholic College that the CHurch must have the 4 marks. One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic.

You are telling me in colllege they deny the Roman Catholic Church?

 

[rinnie]

Yes I say the Creed every Sunday. it is One Holy catholic and Apostolic Church. It is the universal church of Christendom. You will find that many many non RCC denominations say the exact same Creed as you, and realize that it has nothing to do with the Roman Catholic Church. I was taught that first in RCIA many years ago.

I think you are stretching the interpretation a good bit here. Jesus did indeed tell Saul he was persecuting Him. But of course that as easily means when you persecute one who follows me, you persecute me, much as Jesus said, when you deny food or clothing to anyone, you deny me. Or was he talking about Church there as well?

And the bible makes no reference to the “Catholic Church.” If you studied some biblical exegesis, you might learn, or not as you choose to reject or admit, that the references to church in the NT writings were later additions meant to clarify what was by then in some truth, namely that “churches” had arisen wherein people gathered in homes to celebrate Jesus resurrection and to worship in his name.

I have read the bible for years, every single day. I’ve read it cover to cover six times, and obviously man more times through the daily readings, Office, bible study at church, bible studies at the Masters level in Catholic college, and so forth. I have yet to find mention of the “Roman Catholic Church,” anywhere in it.

You may want to hit the books again, The word Catholic means universal. The Church is catholic in a double sense. First the Church is Catholic because Christ is present in her. Secondly the Church is Catholic because she has been sent out by Christ on a mission to the whole human race.

From the Incarnate words descent ot us, all Christian churches everywhere have held and hold the great Church that is here (at ROME) to their only basis and foundation since according to the Saviors promise the gates of hell have never prevailed against her.

You are telling me you never learned that in school either?

 

[pismopal]

Yes I say the Creed every Sunday. it is One Holy catholic and Apostolic Church. It is the universal church of Christendom. You will find that many many non RCC denominations say the exact same Creed as you, and realize that it has nothing to do with the Roman Catholic Church. I was taught that first in RCIA many years ago.

I think you are stretching the interpretation a good bit here. Jesus did indeed tell Saul he was persecuting Him. But of course that as easily means when you persecute one who follows me, you persecute me, much as Jesus said, when you deny food or clothing to anyone, you deny me. Or was he talking about Church there as well?

And the bible makes no reference to the “Catholic Church.” If you studied some biblical exegesis, you might learn, or not as you choose to reject or admit, that the references to church in the NT writings were later additions meant to clarify what was by then in some truth, namely that “churches” had arisen wherein people gathered in homes to celebrate Jesus resurrection and to worship in his name.

I have read the bible for years, every single day. I’ve read it cover to cover six times, and obviously man more times through the daily readings, Office, bible study at church, bible studies at the Masters level in Catholic college, and so forth. I have yet to find mention of the “Roman Catholic Church,” anywhere in it.

The term " Episcopalian " is found where in the Bible? And so…what? There are four marks of the Church…One ,Holy, Catholic and Apostolic…and that Church is…may I have the envelope please?

 

[racing59]

The term " Episcopalian " is found where in the Bible? And so…what? There are four marks of the Church…One ,Holy, Catholic and Apostolic…and that Church is…may I have the envelope please?

Why can’t the four marks of the Church be refering to the Heavenly Church or better yet all Christian Churches?

1. The Church is to be One: All Christian Churches are one in their acceptance of Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior.
2. The Church is to be Holy: As the Bride of Christ the Church in heaven is Holy according to the Book of Revelation. The Church on earth is led by man and any time man runs things he messes things up! Look at Solomon and his Temple, with all his wisdom he disobeyed God (1 Kings 10:14-Chp11:3). What I do not understand is if the Eucharist is the Heart of RCC and is believed that it is Jesus’ ,Body, blood,soul, and divenity I would be on my face before recieving. I have seen abuses in some of the RCC I’ve been to.Then why aren’t Churches treated as THE HOLY OF HOLIES?
3. Catholic means Universal: Are we not all united by faith in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior? Would not then Universal mean all Christian faiths?
4. Apostolic: John 20:20-23 Jesus gave the authority of binding and loosening to all the Apostiles. Andrew started the Byzantine Church. There where 10 other apostles besides Peter, that started Churches all over the known world. Just by geographics at that time, they were seperated from Rome. They had no telephones or internet. Is it not posible there are other Apostolic Churches out there besides RCC then?

 

[Snerticus]

Why can’t the four marks of the Church be refering to the Heavenly Church or better yet all Christian Churches?

Because Christ wanted us all to be one just as He and His Father are one. I don’t recall anywhere in the NT where Jesus and the Father bickered constantly over doctrine. Or over anything else for that matter…

 

[racing59]

Because Christ wanted us all to be one just as He and His Father are one. I don’t recall anywhere in the NT where Jesus and the Father bickered constantly over doctrine. Or over anything else for that matter…

To me this does not answer my questions above on the four marks of the Church. We all are One through Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior!

 

[Snerticus]

To me this does not answer my questions above on the four marks of the Church. We all are One through Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior!

My point is that we are not one if we bicker between ourselves. We are one in the way that we all bilieve, yes, but there is more to “being one” than belief. There are believers that do not live their faith and do whatever their own whims tell them yet still believe in Christ and that they’re going to heaven. Jesus tells us that not everyone who says Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom. I don’t know what it means to you, but to me it means that not everyone who thinks they are a believer is truly a believer. Mankind has a certain “knack” of convincing himself that he believes something when he doesn’t. That’s why I always pray that I’m on the right road and why I always say that God knows our own hearts better than we do.

God Bless,
Snert

 

[racing59]

My point is that we are not one if we bicker between ourselves. We are one in the way that we all bilieve, yes, but there is more to “being one” than belief. There are believers that do not live their faith and do whatever their own whims tell them yet still believe in Christ and that they’re going to heaven. Jesus tells us that not everyone who says Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom. I don’t know what it means to you, but to me it means that not everyone who thinks they are a believer is truly a believer. Mankind has a certain “knack” of convincing himself that he believes something when he doesn’t. That’s why I always pray that I’m on the right road and why I always say that God knows our own hearts better than we do.

God Bless,
Snert

Your premise is your faith in RCC is the one and only true Church. That is an act of Faith.The fact is no where in the Bible is RCC deirectly qouted as the one true Church. I have seen alot of good and bad in all kinds of churches including RCC.You still have not adressed all my questions especially on the Eucharist. I’m not trying to upset you, but I myself am searching for answers to all my questions.

 

[rinnie]

Why can’t the four marks of the Church be refering to the Heavenly Church or better yet all Christian Churches?

1. The Church is to be One: All Christian Churches are one in their acceptance of Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior.
2. The Church is to be Holy: As the Bride of Christ the Church in heaven is Holy according to the Book of Revelation. The Church on earth is led by man and any time man runs things he messes things up! Look at Solomon and his Temple, with all his wisdom he disobeyed God (1 Kings 10:14-Chp11:3). What I do not understand is if the Eucharist is the Heart of RCC and is believed that it is Jesus’ ,Body, blood,soul, and divenity I would be on my face before recieving. I have seen abuses in some of the RCC I’ve been to.Then why aren’t Churches treated as THE HOLY OF HOLIES?
3. Catholic means Universal: Are we not all united by faith in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior? Would not then Universal mean all Christian faiths?
4. Apostolic: John 20:20-23 Jesus gave the authority of binding and loosening to all the Apostiles. Andrew started the Byzantine Church. There where 10 other apostles besides Peter, that started Churches all over the known world. Just by geographics at that time, they were seperated from Rome. They had no telephones or internet. Is it not posible there are other Apostolic Churches out there besides RCC then?

You just kind of answered your own question. Re-read first sentence. ONE. We agree that Jesus Christ and his church cannot be separated from the truth. THere you have it, we can only have ONE truth. Not many. And actually the other Catholic Church do have the fullness of the truth if indeed they do have the 7 sacraments.

As far as I can see as long as we agree on the teaching’s of the Church which I believe we do, it is indeed the fullness of the truth. I was told the Byzantine Church and the RCC do agree on the same teaching’s. It just the authority of the Pope that is in question. I could be wrong.

 

[wolfgang]

…Are you really that ignorant of those with faiths other than yours? …

Not at all.

 

[racing59]

You just kind of answered your own question. Re-read first sentence. ONE. We agree that Jesus Christ and his church cannot be separated from the truth. THere you have it, we can only have ONE truth. Not many. And actually the other Catholic Church do have the fullness of the truth if indeed they do have the 7 sacraments.

As far as I can see as long as we agree on the teaching’s of the Church which I believe we do, it is indeed the fullness of the truth. I was told the Byzantine Church and the RCC do agree on the same teaching’s. It just the authority of the Pope that is in question. I could be wrong.

**This still does not answer my questions on #2. Seven Sacraments are fine if the are truely believed as Seven Covenants with God, but they are things I do not understand that have been done as far as Holyness,that I brought up in #2. **

 

[rinnie]

**This still does not answer my questions on #2. Seven Sacraments are fine if the are truely believed as Seven Covenants with God, but they are things I do not understand that have been done as far as Holyness,that I brought up in #2. **

But that is just it. Where did anyone ever say that the RC was led by man. Jesus promised us that he would send us the gift of the Holy Spirit to guide his Church.

The RCC is not led by Man, it is led by Jesus Christ himself. We do not go by the teaching’s of Man, we go by the Apostolic Teachings. The Priest has the gift of the Holy SPirit that was given to him the same way that the Apostles got it, by the laying of Hands. We call that Holy Orders. THe teachings’s of the RCC have never changed, never will. Until Jesus comes down. What in the RCC does the Church teach in your opinions disagrees with Scripture?

 

[Snerticus]

Your premise is your faith in RCC is the one and only true Church. That is an act of Faith.The fact is no where in the Bible is RCC deirectly qouted as the one true Church. I have seen alot of good and bad in all kinds of churches including RCC.You still have not adressed all my questions especially on the Eucharist. I’m not trying to upset you, but I myself am searching for answers to all my questions.

Oh, I didn’t think you were trying to upset me! I know you want answers. I just don’t think I can answer you if I don’t think we’re “one” yet. I do believe the Catholic Church is the true Church Christ founded, but I don’t think that Heaven excludes others. In that respect, yes we are one, but here on earth, I can’t tell who’s included in the “one”. Even some in the CC will call on the Lord and will be turned away, so I really can’t answer your other questions if this is what I believe to begin with.

 

[racing59]

But that is just it. Where did anyone ever say that the RC was led by man. Jesus promised us that he would send us the gift of the Holy Spirit to guide his Church.

The RCC is not led by Man, it is led by Jesus Christ himself. We do not go by the teaching’s of Man, we go by the Apostolic Teachings. The Priest has the gift of the Holy SPirit that was given to him the same way that the Apostles got it, by the laying of Hands. We call that Holy Orders. THe teachings’s of the RCC have never changed, never will. Until Jesus comes down. What in the RCC does the Church teach in your opinions disagrees with Scripture?

Why then when a mistake is made by the RCC are a priest or Bishop only human?
Example: RCC use to believe the Earth was the center of the Universe according to Genisis. The Sun then revolved around the Earth. When Galileo proved the Earth revovled around the Sun this was a direct contrast to the doctrine and divine inturpretation of RCC. Galileo was arrested and impressioned in his own home for 19 years until he died. RCC later changed this doctrine. So to me their have been man mad errors. Are not all Christian Churches guided by the Holy Spirit? Judism has been around for 4,000 years do they not follow God and the Tora?Last of all my question on the Eucharist, if this truely is God in the second person of the Trinity, why wouldn’t people be on their fa ce before recieving? Were is the Holy of Holies, should it not be during the Mass?

 

[rinnie]

Why then when a mistake is made by the RCC are a priest or Bishop only human?
Example: RCC use to believe the Earth was the center of the Universe according to Genisis. The Sun then revolved around the Earth. When Galileo proved the Earth revovled around the Sun this was a direct contrast to the doctrine and divine inturpretation of RCC. Galileo was arrested and impressioned in his own home for 19 years until he died. RCC later changed this doctrine. So to me their have been man mad errors. Are not all Christian Churches guided by the Holy Spirit? Judism has been around for 4,000 years do they not follow God and the Tora?Last of all my question on the Eucharist, if this truely is God in the second person of the Trinity, why wouldn’t people be on their fa ce before recieving? Were is the Holy of Holies, should it not be during the Mass?

First of all what does a Priest or Bishop being Human have to do the the Dogma of the Church. Secondly where does the RCC teach that the earth is the center of the world according to genesis. Could you show me scripture on that one? Third what does the O.T. have to do with the teaching’s of the RCC. We believe in the N.T. and it is a big part of our faith. Where does it say in the bible that ALL Christian Church’s are guided by the HOly Spirit. Actually it says quite the opposite. It says not to be misled by false teachers. And lastly when Jesus said this is my body which has been given up for you, do this in memory of me, What are you saying that what he said is a lie or what? I don’t understand. And when we receive the body of Christ do we not bow before the Eucharist.

Could you show me where it says that a priest or Bishop cannot make a mistake. Where does the CHurch teach that a Priest or Bishop stating their personal opinion on something become Church teaching’s. You have me at a loss here, I don’t understand where you are getting these thing’s. ITs not from the RCC. thats for sure!

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Well, Maybe you need to go over it again. Let me start here. Is the Church that Peter Started not Catholic, Did Peter not start the Church in Rome. Does the Pope not run the Roman Catholic Church. Is the Catholic Church not Holy, And does it not go by Apostolic Teachings. They did not teach you this in a Catholic college in Bible Study?

You know Rinnie when you surround yourself with people who agree with you, you can get the idea you’re absolutely right. I don’t think Peter started any church but that at Antioch. I would ask for any proof that that church was called Catholic, or any church of the earliest times such as the one as Corinth, or Jerusalem, or Galatia, etc. I find no evidence that he started a church in Rome. Indeed, when Paul writes in Roman’s he never greets Peter as he did everyone else in his letters, and indeed his letter would be the highest form of insult if Peter was in charge of things there. The pope does “run” the Roman Catholic church. I have no reason to deny the RCC is holy and apostolic. Your point?

The creeds refer to a little c catholic, meaning the church universal. Do you honestly think that Lutherans, Methodists, Anglicans/Episcopalians, and goodness knows how many otehrs would use those words if they thought they referred to the RCC?

Did they not teach you this?

 

[SpiritMeadow]

You mean to tell me that they did not teach you this is a Catholic College?

196 ccc Our presentation of the faith will follow the Apostles Creed which constitutes as it were the OLDEST ROMAN CATECHISM. The The presentation will be completed however by constant references to the Nicene Creed which is more explicit and more detailed.

You are telling me that they did not teach you in a Catholic College that the CHurch must have the 4 marks. One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic.

You are telling me in colllege they deny the Roman Catholic Church?

Rinnie, you need to calm yourself and read more slowly. You’ve gone around the bend here. I said…that from RCIA onward, I was taught in complete agreement by different thoroughly Roman Catholic sources that the creeds referral to catholic was little c, meaning universal church, and NOT the RCC.

I said nothing whatsoever about the RCC not being Holy, and apostolic. I have no claim that that is not true. But so are many others, hopefully most. But I understand that many do not claim apostolic succession. The universal church does have the four marks of course. Again, it would be ludicrous from millions to say these creeds if they believed it referred only the the RCC. Idiotic and self defeating as a matter of fact. Logic dictates otherwise, plain and simple.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

You may want to hit the books again, The word Catholic means universal. The Church is catholic in a double sense. First the Church is Catholic because Christ is present in her. Secondly the Church is Catholic because she has been sent out by Christ on a mission to the whole human race.

From the Incarnate words descent ot us, all Christian churches everywhere have held and hold the great Church that is here (at ROME) to their only basis and foundation since according to the Saviors promise the gates of hell have never prevailed against her.

You are telling me you never learned that in school either?

Rinnie there is no need to be rude. You can disagree with me without claiming I am in need of more learning. Perhaps it is you. I agree, the word Catholic means universal. After that, you make no sense. What has Christ’s presence got to do with the world universal? Christ is present in all of Christendom, RC or not. There is no definition I know of that aligns Roman Catholicism with universal by virtue of mission. All of Christendom is called to preach the gospel.

YOur second paragraph is not intelligible to me. What are you claiming the rest of us do regards you? Are you saying we look to you as our foundation? Perhaps in a sense. We acknowledge that at some point in time, Rome consolidated all power to herself. Of course from that point, groups have left in disagreement of that consolidation. The EO and then those that formed Lutheranism, and so forth. All claim that the Roman Catholic Church diverged from true teaching and they split because of it. The Anglicans split off mostly on the issue of who ran the Church, pope or king.

I can only reinterate that it is uniformly taught that the catholic in the creeds does not refer to the RCC and such was I taught by Catholics themselves from RCIA and in Master’s level classes conducted by theologians. Such is universally taught in every Protestant denomination that uses the creed. They could all be wrong and you right though, but somehow I’m putting my faith in the experts.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

The term " Episcopalian " is found where in the Bible? And so…what? There are four marks of the Church…One ,Holy, Catholic and Apostolic…and that Church is…may I have the envelope please?

Right next to Roman Catholic church. You tell me. There are 4 marks to the universal church, you are right. What is this thing with a tiny fragment of the RCC that requires that everyone bow to them as first, best? It’s sad that your understanding of faith requires this kind of prideful demand of everyone.

 

[racing59]

First of all what does a Priest or Bishop being Human have to do the the Dogma of the Church. Secondly where does the RCC teach that the earth is the center of the world according to genesis. Could you show me scripture on that one? Third what does the O.T. have to do with the teaching’s of the RCC. We believe in the N.T. and it is a big part of our faith. Where does it say in the bible that ALL Christian Church’s are guided by the HOly Spirit. Actually it says quite the opposite. It says not to be misled by false teachers. And lastly when Jesus said this is my body which has been given up for you, do this in memory of me, What are you saying that what he said is a lie or what? I don’t understand. And when we receive the body of Christ do we not bow before the Eucharist.

Could you show me where it says that a priest or Bishop cannot make a mistake. Where does the CHurch teach that a Priest or Bishop stating their personal opinion on something become Church teaching’s. You have me at a loss here, I don’t understand where you are getting these thing’s. ITs not from the RCC. thats for sure!

It is a historical fact that RCC placed Galileo under arrest for teaching the Earth revovles around the Sun, look it up in history.It greatly troubled me. The teaching of RCC at that time come from Genesis Chapter one. In fact there is a picture in the NAB showing this. So is not the Bishop of Rome Pope? Bowing before Jesus is alot different than prostrating yourself before him. Correct me if I’m wrong, you are saying only RCC is guided by the Holy Spirit. Is it not in Scripture anyone can recieve the Holy Spirit?