Why do Catholics believe that all non-Catholics hold the same beliefs?

  • Thread starter Thread starter ICA04
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Snerticus said:
Because Christ wanted us all to be one just as He and His Father are one. I don’t recall anywhere in the NT where Jesus and the Father bickered constantly over doctrine. Or over anything else for that matter… 😦
Click to expand...
I suspect it is your interpretation that says that Christ wanted One church. I believe he wanted his understanding of God to be spread, that he was concerned that his fellow Jewish religious leaders had gotten off the track. (Sound familiar). He was in fact leading a revision of his own faith. It seems to be your claim, (correct me of course) that “upon this rock” is interpreted by RC’s as the call for one church. Other interpretations are of course out there, and quite obviously millions don’t agree that you interpret this correctly.

In any case, it is not the Non-RC here that is constantly bickering about this issue. It is always brought up by RC members who apparently need to believe this to the extent that they must argue it to everyone at every juncture. No one else seems to be much interested in the issue of claiming “first” as if that is some prize.
 
rinnie said:
You just kind of answered your own question. Re-read first sentence. ONE. We agree that Jesus Christ and his church cannot be separated from the truth. THere you have it, we can only have ONE truth. Not many. And actually the other Catholic Church do have the fullness of the truth if indeed they do have the 7 sacraments.

As far as I can see as long as we agree on the teaching’s of the Church which I believe we do, it is indeed the fullness of the truth. I was told the Byzantine Church and the RCC do agree on the same teaching’s. It just the authority of the Pope that is in question. I could be wrong.
Click to expand...
I think what he is saying is that we are One --all of Christendom. We too have the 7 sacraments. We would agree that Rome is correct in many things, our liturgies are nearly the same, we engage in much of the same ritual. We agree that those things are right. We don’t agree with Rome on some things as well, and actually, if you talk to those engaged in ecuminism, there is some reason to believe that Rome agrees that in some liturgical matters, perhaps some other churches are closer to the mark, and they are studying the matter to offer changes in certain liturgical issues.

What I seem to hear from my Protestant brethren, is that they don’t make claims to absolute truth. They do what they believe to be right based on scripture, tradition, and reason, and make changes as they conclude that they are wrong about something and/or some other church is more right. The point is that together we hope that we have as full a truth as has yet been revealed. But God of course is continually revealing.

This is difficult to those who rely on some group that defines all truth for them. I suspect it has more to do with a type of personality that anything else. Some need hard and fast rules and assurance. Others can live with more mystery and uncertainty.
 
SpiritMeadow said:
I suspect it is your interpretation that says that Christ wanted One church. I believe he wanted his understanding of God to be spread, that he was concerned that his fellow Jewish religious leaders had gotten off the track. (Sound familiar). He was in fact leading a revision of his own faith. It seems to be your claim, (correct me of course) that “upon this rock” is interpreted by RC’s as the call for one church. Other interpretations are of course out there, and quite obviously millions don’t agree that you interpret this correctly.

In any case, it is not the Non-RC here that is constantly bickering about this issue. It is always brought up by RC members who apparently need to believe this to the extent that they must argue it to everyone at every juncture. No one else seems to be much interested in the issue of claiming “first” as if that is some prize.
Click to expand...
John: 20-26
20 I pray not only for these but also for those who through their teaching will come to believe in me. 21 May they all be one, just as, Father, you are in me and I am in you, so that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe it was you who sent me. 22 I have given them the glory you gave to me, that they may be one as we are one. 23 With me in them and you in me, may they be so perfected in unity that the world will recognise that it was you who sent me and that you have loved them as you have loved me. 24 Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, so that they may always see my glory which you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. 25 Father, Upright One, the world has not known you, but I have known you, and these have known that you have sent me. 26 I have made your name known to them and will continue to make it known, so that the love with which you loved me may be in them, and so that I may be in them.
Click to expand...
As it is, because or our bickering, we do not appear as one so that the world knows the Father sent Christ. And believe what you will, the bickering has been instigated by both sides in equal amounts, not any more one side’s fault than the other. It may appear so in these forums because they are Catholic. However, go elsewhere and the sides will even out. Even within Protestantism and Catholicism, we bicker. It’s no wonder the world doesn’t see Christ in us.
 
racing59 said:
It is a historical fact that RCC placed Galileo under arrest for teaching the Earth revovles around the Sun, look it up in history.It greatly troubled me. The teaching of RCC at that time come from Genesis Chapter one. In fact there is a picture in the NAB showing this. So is not the Bishop of Rome Pope? Bowing before Jesus is alot different than prostrating yourself before him. Correct me if I’m wrong, you are saying only RCC is guided by the Holy Spirit. Is it not in Scripture anyone can recieve the Holy Spirit?
Click to expand...
You are substantially right. Rinnie is forgetting the Magisterium and tradition, the other two aspects of Catholic dogma. Additionally he said that the OT has nothing to do with the RCC, which I would say is not Catholic teaching whatsoever. There is nothing in the bible that says that Jesus resides in the RCC and nowhere else, and such would be shameful to most Catholics I would believe, having been one for a number of years. Most RC’s are merely taught that the RCC has “more” truth not all of it to the exclusion of anyone else. Claims that the Spirit is the private possession of the RCC is simply not its’ teaching, and may really reflect a very tiny ultra conservative interpretation that is not supported by the Church herself.

No one here speaks for the RCC officially. These people, like you and me, merely interpret as best we can what we have been taught, and what we read. So I would not accept such statements as “official” Catholic belief by any means, since I don’t think it is.
 
racing59 said:
It is a historical fact that RCC placed Galileo under arrest for teaching the Earth revovles around the Sun, look it up in history.It greatly troubled me. The teaching of RCC at that time come from Genesis Chapter one. In fact there is a picture in the NAB showing this. So is not the Bishop of Rome Pope? Bowing before Jesus is alot different than prostrating yourself before him. Correct me if I’m wrong, you are saying only RCC is guided by the Holy Spirit. Is it not in Scripture anyone can recieve the Holy Spirit?
Click to expand...
If you can find it, on the matter of Galileo, I highly recommend de Santillana’s THE CRIME OF GALILEO, for a look at what was really going on. Like most of history, it is complicated.

GKC
 
SpiritMeadow said:
You know Rinnie when you surround yourself with people who agree with you, you can get the idea you’re absolutely right. I don’t think Peter started any church but that at Antioch. I would ask for any proof that that church was called Catholic, or any church of the earliest times such as the one as Corinth, or Jerusalem, or Galatia, etc. I find no evidence that he started a church in Rome. Indeed, when Paul writes in Roman’s he never greets Peter as he did everyone else in his letters, and indeed his letter would be the highest form of insult if Peter was in charge of things there. The pope does “run” the Roman Catholic church. I have no reason to deny the RCC is holy and apostolic. Your point?

The creeds refer to a little c catholic, meaning the church universal. Do you honestly think that Lutherans, Methodists, Anglicans/Episcopalians, and goodness knows how many otehrs would use those words if they thought they referred to the RCC?

Did they not teach you this?
Click to expand...
Where does it say anything in the RCC or the Apostles Creed about a little c?
 
SpiritMeadow said:
You are substantially right. Rinnie is forgetting the Magisterium and tradition, the other two aspects of Catholic dogma. Additionally he said that the OT has nothing to do with the RCC, which I would say is not Catholic teaching whatsoever. There is nothing in the bible that says that Jesus resides in the RCC and nowhere else, and such would be shameful to most Catholics I would believe, having been one for a number of years. Most RC’s are merely taught that the RCC has “more” truth not all of it to the exclusion of anyone else. Claims that the Spirit is the private possession of the RCC is simply not its’ teaching, and may really reflect a very tiny ultra conservative interpretation that is not supported by the Church herself.

No one here speaks for the RCC officially. These people, like you and me, merely interpret as best we can what we have been taught, and what we read. So I would not accept such statements as “official” Catholic belief by any means, since I don’t think it is.
Click to expand...
Okay so now lets see, You deny that Peter started the RCC. You I guess also deny that Jesus left the Church to Peter, and you deny What that Peter was First Pope? Am I correct.

Now you are also saying the we can intrepret the bible ourself, and the bible does not tell us we do not have the Gift of the Holy Spirit to do that. Is that what you are saying? I want to makes sure I understand you.
 
Also are you saying I deny the O.T. Because if you are please show me where I said that, I said that the O.T. is as very much a part of our faith. That the RCC has the teaching of the O.T. and the N.T.
 
SpiritMeadow said:
Rinnie there is no need to be rude. You can disagree with me without claiming I am in need of more learning. Perhaps it is you. I agree, the word Catholic means universal. After that, you make no sense. What has Christ’s presence got to do with the world universal? Christ is present in all of Christendom, RC or not. There is no definition I know of that aligns Roman Catholicism with universal by virtue of mission. All of Christendom is called to preach the gospel.

YOur second paragraph is not intelligible to me. What are you claiming the rest of us do regards you? Are you saying we look to you as our foundation? Perhaps in a sense. We acknowledge that at some point in time, Rome consolidated all power to herself. Of course from that point, groups have left in disagreement of that consolidation. The EO and then those that formed Lutheranism, and so forth. All claim that the Roman Catholic Church diverged from true teaching and they split because of it. The Anglicans split off mostly on the issue of who ran the Church, pope or king.

I can only reinterate that it is uniformly taught that the catholic in the creeds does not refer to the RCC and such was I taught by Catholics themselves from RCIA and in Master’s level classes conducted by theologians. Such is universally taught in every Protestant denomination that uses the creed. They could all be wrong and you right though, but somehow I’m putting my faith in the experts.
Click to expand...
Actually the second paragraph that is not my words they are the words of the CCC. Actually most of that whole paragraph is.
 
SpiritMeadow said:
You know Rinnie when you surround yourself with people who agree with you, you can get the idea you’re absolutely right. I don’t think Peter started any church but that at Antioch. I would ask for any proof that that church was called Catholic, or any church of the earliest times such as the one as Corinth, or Jerusalem, or Galatia, etc. I find no evidence that he started a church in Rome. Indeed, when Paul writes in Roman’s he never greets Peter as he did everyone else in his letters, and indeed his letter would be the highest form of insult if Peter was in charge of things there. The pope does “run” the Roman Catholic church. I have no reason to deny the RCC is holy and apostolic. Your point?

The creeds refer to a little c catholic, meaning the church universal. Do you honestly think that Lutherans, Methodists, Anglicans/Episcopalians, and goodness knows how many otehrs would use those words if they thought they referred to the RCC?

Did they not teach you this?
Click to expand...
When I said that the Pope runs the Church, what I meant was the Roman Ponfiff by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ and as Pastor of the entire Church has full supreme and universal power over the whole church, a power he can always exercise.

What they DID TEACH me is the college of body of bishops have NO AUTHORITY unless united with the Roman Pontiff.

By Jesus making Peter the leader this is handed down to the Pope. This authority never dies.

Yes Bishops have authority, but the authority must be exercised in communion with the whole church under the guidance of the Pope.
 
GKC said:
It varies. In the Episcopal 1928 Book of Common Prayer, it’s “C”.

GKC
Click to expand...
Sorry, I’m referring to current Catholic missals in the OF. As a matter of fact, I think that when I was little, I wondered why the “c” in the creed at mass was a small “c” too. So perhaps it was always that way… :hmmm:
 
In the CCC the Apostles creed and the Nicene Creed both have catholic small c. So whats the point?
 
I believe (apostles creed is the faith the church professed personally by each believer principally during baptism. We believe Niceno Constantinopolititan creed is the faith of the church confessed by the bishops assembly in council or more generally by the liturgical assembly of bleievers. I believe is also the Church our mother responding to God by faith as she teaches us to say both I believe and We believe.
 
Snerticus said:
Sorry, I’m referring to current Catholic missals in the OF. As a matter of fact, I think that when I was little, I wondered why the “c” in the creed at mass was a small “c” too. So perhaps it was always that way… :hmmm:
Click to expand...
I suspected something like that. Still, it’s “C”, some places.

GKC
 
Since the earliest century the Church was Catholic.

Matt 6:18 says church not Church’s.

There is nothing biblical to prove that there is a small c or C. Because it did not exist in the early church. It was something made up centurys later.
 
Snerticus said:
That’s actually quite interesting!
Click to expand...
Same in the 1898 Book. And in the 1789 Book. And the 1871 Book.

And in the Church of England Book of 1662.

In the CoE Book of 1549, the first Book of Common Prayer, it’s “c”. Also in the 2nd Book, of 1559.

One other point. Only the 1549, the first, Book, includes the word “Holy”. We add it, in our use of the 1928 Book.

GKC
 
SpiritMeadow said:
Right next to Roman Catholic church. You tell me. There are 4 marks to the universal church, you are right. What is this thing with a tiny fragment of the RCC that requires that everyone bow to them as first, best? It’s sad that your understanding of faith requires this kind of prideful demand of everyone.
Click to expand...
The question was " where is Roman Catholic Church" in the Bible as if every name jot or title of an idea must be spelled out in the Bible…this idea is ridiculous in an extreme. Why are you asking me a question regarding an idea of YOURS. I know of no part of the Church that requires you or anyone else to bow to “them”. Whoever them is. You don’t know what my “understanding of the faith” is so pull in your horns. I make no prideful demand of anyone. You are barking at the moon my friend. I am a thoughtful happy Catholic brought into the RCC on my own after years of study and I would never go back. I am too busy to make demands on you or anyone. If anything is sad it is the over the top ignorance of some…I think you included…of the Catholic Church:shrug:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top