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MusicMan
Guest
It’s interesting, because God spoke directly to Moses. Gave him things like the Ten Commandments. Even appeared as a burning bush to tell him to get outta Egypt.
So much for speaking directly to God …
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So much for speaking directly to God …
D
distracted
Guest
yes - we are forgiven by the human priest and also by Christ…
i wouldn’t want my parents or just about anyone else knowing my sins… for one thing, they are involved in my confession… for example… there is this one person i have a great disliking of… if i were to talk about that person to that person’s face… well, i don’t believe in hurting people’s feelings. this one person i am thinking of is not someone i can speak to so… i need to speak to a priest who is “neutal” on our relationship. There is nothing wrong w/ confessing to another ordinary person… but that is not Sacramental confession… no power to really absolve…
i gotta go… will finish responding later…
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pismopal
Guest
Confronting one’s sin is important to avoiding repetition. Getting on your knees and confessing to God is one step but it is important to remember that God already knows about your mistake…so the real issue in reconcilliation is doing more than having a “thought” about how wrong you were. A confession to a priest (besides having Holy Orders, a priest is trained in dealing with these things) is uplifting because the sinner is actually taking action and responsibility for the sin…directly. If you cannot understand the difference… I apologize for being inarticulate.
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PJM
Guest
[QUOT]=distracted=one reason is that when we sin we sin not only against God (and ourselves) but against other human beings, whom we are to love as we love ourselves…
and so going to a priest offers us the chance to confess our sins to, and be forgiven by, someone who is just like us - weak, sinful… human.
it is SO awesome to be forgiven by another human being, especially a priest who usually knows more about God / Jesus than ordinary people do…
Also because Jesus told us to (John 20:19)
***Friend, here is why Catholics do and YOU SHOULD TOO:***thumbsup:
15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, you are Peter, * and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." *
Mt. 19:"17 And he said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments."
**1 John 1: 8-10 **"If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. "
1 John 5: 16-17 "If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is morta Which of course means that there are sins that are “mortal” and completely remove us from a persoanl relationship with God.
Mt. 18:15-18 "If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; [SINGULAR] and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
***John 20:21-23 "On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” ***
Yes, the Catholic Church knows, teaches and practices that ONLY God can “forgive sins!” The role of the priest is to determine if one is sincerely repentant, to give spiritual advise on how to avoid sin, and with the words "I ABSOLVE YOU [NOT “I forgive you”] IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER, THE SON AND THE HOLY SPIRIT, we can know with 100% certitude that are sins ARE FORGIVEN. NOT GUESS, actually know
Love and prayers,
Pat
and so going to a priest offers us the chance to confess our sins to, and be forgiven by, someone who is just like us - weak, sinful… human.
it is SO awesome to be forgiven by another human being, especially a priest who usually knows more about God / Jesus than ordinary people do…
Also because Jesus told us to (John 20:19)
***Friend, here is why Catholics do and YOU SHOULD TOO:***thumbsup:
15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, you are Peter, * and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." *
Mt. 19:"17 And he said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments."
**1 John 1: 8-10 **"If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. "
1 John 5: 16-17 "If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is morta Which of course means that there are sins that are “mortal” and completely remove us from a persoanl relationship with God.
Mt. 18:15-18 "If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; [SINGULAR] and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
***John 20:21-23 "On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” ***
Yes, the Catholic Church knows, teaches and practices that ONLY God can “forgive sins!” The role of the priest is to determine if one is sincerely repentant, to give spiritual advise on how to avoid sin, and with the words "I ABSOLVE YOU [NOT “I forgive you”] IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER, THE SON AND THE HOLY SPIRIT, we can know with 100% certitude that are sins ARE FORGIVEN. NOT GUESS, actually know
Love and prayers,
Pat
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Departed_Light
Guest
PJM said in conclusion:
Man says = God acts.
No.
God acts because He wishes to act in spite of anything man says or does.
Yes, the Catholic Church knows, teaches and practices that ONLY God can “forgive sins!” The role of the priest is to determine if one is sincerely repentant, to give spiritual advise on how to avoid sin, and with the words "I ABSOLVE YOU [NOT “I forgive you”] IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER, THE SON AND THE HOLY SPIRIT, we can know with 100% certitude that are sins ARE FORGIVEN. NOT GUESS, actually know
Is it important that we know we are forgiven (Gnostic idea) or is it important that God forgives (Christian idea)? God will do as He wishes. If He wishes to forgive sins through the mediation of a priest that is His wish. But to presume that He does because a priest uses a certain formula and or says certain words makes God act because of man. This is what many non-Catholics Christians point to as superstitions. It may be that God forgives 100% of the time because a priest says so, but to presume that is making voodoo out of Christianity.
Man says = God acts.
No.
God acts because He wishes to act in spite of anything man says or does.
D
Departed_Light
Guest
For any interested this link (newadvent.org/cathen/11618c.htm) is to the article “The Sacrament of Penance” in the Catholic Encyclopedia. It is very interesting, and as usual well documented and cited.
Hanna, Edward. “The Sacrament of Penance.” The Catholic Encyclopedia. Vol. 11. New York: Robert Appleton Company, 1911. 30 Sept. 2009 http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11618c.htm.
Transcription. This article was transcribed for New Advent by Donald J. Boon.
Ecclesiastical approbation. Nihil Obstat. February 1, 1911. Remy Lafort, S.T.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York.
Hanna, Edward. “The Sacrament of Penance.” The Catholic Encyclopedia. Vol. 11. New York: Robert Appleton Company, 1911. 30 Sept. 2009 http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11618c.htm.
Transcription. This article was transcribed for New Advent by Donald J. Boon.
Ecclesiastical approbation. Nihil Obstat. February 1, 1911. Remy Lafort, S.T.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York.
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PJM
Guest
Nice try!But if we are going to vote I’ll vote with Peter and The 2000 year old Bible Teaching of the Catholic Church: Acts 5: ***29 But Peter and the apostles answered, “We must obey God rather than men.” John 20:21-23 "**Jesus said to them ***again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “**Receive the Holy Spirit. you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” ****
Friend, is this another one of those verses that a PERFECT GOD did not know what He was saying? Or Perhaps He just didn’t mean it:shrug:
May I suggest friend that you attempt to justify your personal opinion in the very clear, concise and bright light ligt of the Bible [Divinely Inspired Bible, I might add].
Mt. 16:19
Mt.18:15-18
1 John 5:16-18
John 20:21-23
Friend, you’re entitled to you’re personal opinion, but know God will judge us on what is actually His TRUTH, not what we want His truth to be.
And for the record [again!] Catholics understand, teach and practice that ONLY GOD can forgive sins! The priest NEVER EVER used the words " I forgive you," rather the priest affirms sincere repentance and say’s [with the specific authority and power of God Himself]
“I absolve you in the name of the Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit; go in peace, you’re sins ae forgiven”
Catholics Know we are forgiven, others hope, guess, speculate BUT DO NOT, CANNOT KNOW with certainty. That’s a heck of a way to live! I sure would not be looking forward to Judgement not knowing!
Catholics are not BOLD enoungh to challange the Wisdom of God! If God says “do this, or do that”; that friend is precisely what we do! And have done for 2000 years! The Sacraments are instituted By Jesus Chrsit Himself, to aid us in getting to heaven. That too is in the Bible
Love and prayers friend,
D
distracted
Guest
we NEED a mediator because no one knows God’s will except the Great Mediator, Jesus Christ, who is God’s Word Incarnate…
We need more than prayer to God - we need his laws. We need his power… That is why we need Jesus. All power had been given to HIM…
When it was prophesized in Isaiah 53 that Jesus would come… at the end of the passage that describes him it says “And the will of God will be accomplished through Him.” (no one else)
otherwise we would think that whatever notion came into our heads through prayer was “from God”. This is what is wrong with the Muslim religion and others… They claim to know God and pray to him like others (Christians) do… but they do NOT have all his laws… That comes from knowing Jesus Christ and that comes from being in His Church. Jesus would not have had to come to Earth and suffer and die for our sins if we were capable – on our own – of “just going to God” Yes, we can just go to God but cannot just know his perfect will by doing this…
I used to “just have God” with no “mediator”… and you wouldn’t believe the things that happend to me and… how stupid and clue-less i was before i found God’s true Church…
i messed up my life and others’ lives…
you can tell by the uncharitable way people act today… all the evil people do… all the selfishness, etc… that we need something…
most of the people who commit the aformetioned sins… claim to have God… i think 98% of americans believe in God.
as it says in James 2:12: Faith wihout works is dead. True works that God is pleased with are those that are done in HIS will… and the only way to know his will is through HIs Church…
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Departed_Light
Guest
Try at what? Stating my views? I didn’t try, I stated them. In case readers wonder, I am not attempted to draw anyone away from their Spiritual path. If you are following Christ as a Catholic then I rejoice with you that you are and encourage you to continue to do that.
Your friend distracted, a self professed Catholic, disagrees with you when I asked if the Catholic Church teaches that the priest in confession forgives the penitent:Friend, you’re entitled to you’re personal opinion, but know God will judge us on what is actually His TRUTH, not what we want His truth to be.
And for the record [again!] Catholics understand, teach and practice that ONLY GOD can forgive sins! The priest NEVER EVER used the words " I forgive you," rather the priest affirms sincere repentance and say’s [with the specific authority and power of God Himself]
“I absolve you in the name of the Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit; go in peace, you’re sins ae forgiven”
Perhaps Catholics should get on the same sheet of music before attempting to triumph over non-Catholics that disagree with them.
What is the difference between Catholics that say they know they are forgiven by God and a Protestant that says he knows he’s saved? They both mean the same thing. When an evangelical Christian speaks of being saved he is speaking about a moment in his life where he came to know God’s forgiveness. Catholics scoff at such a notion yet turn right around and say that because a priest absolved them from sin that God has forgiven them.Catholics Know we are forgiven, others hope, guess, speculate BUT DO NOT, CANNOT KNOW with certainty. That’s a heck of a way to live! I sure would not be looking forward to Judgement not knowing!
Catholics are not BOLD enoungh to challange the Wisdom of God! If God says “do this, or do that”; that friend is precisely what we do! And have done for 2000 years! The Sacraments are instituted By Jesus Chrsit Himself, to aid us in getting to heaven. That too is in the Bible
Love and prayers friend,
I always enjoy being prayed over. Thank you.
P
PJM
Guest
Originally Posted by distracted
While humanly speaking this is a true statement; Theologially it is confused, and NOT a Catholic Teaching.
No doubt, when the priest grants absoluation, and says “go in peace your sins are forgiven you” as a member of the world at large, and the Catholic Community locally, BECAUSE sin always effect the world, the community and the people in it; and because in the Lords prayer we petition God to ONLY “forgive us to the degree we forgive EVERYONE else,” the priest NOT AS GOD, but individually as himself, grants his personal forgiveness.
I would certainly agree that in a public forum that greater care and selection of words is prudent and required.
While the intent may be similar? The effects are far from being alike. If you are suggesting any form of OSAS, that is an anti-biblical position; not only NOT IN GODS DIVINELY INSPIRED WORDS, but actually opposed to what the Bible actually has to say on the matter.
God will judge deeds, NOT good intentions: 1 Peter 1: 15 “but as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct; since it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.” And if you invoke as Father him who judges each one impartially according to his deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile.”
If you are filmiliar with the OT, God seems to come across and VERY STRICT and quick to punish God. Then we meet Him trhough Jesus in the NT and all of a sudden forget the God of the OT, in favor of our “new and improved model God” who is clearly, kind, loving, merciful, forgiving, but GLOSS OVER THE FACT, it is the SAME GOD.
God by virtue of His Divine Nature, by virtue of God being God has to be [no choice but to be] *** ALSO a God who is Fair and Just***.
God simply cannot be GOD! And judge everyone alike. It denies why He Created us as He did with a mind, intellect and freewill; pecisely and primarily to know, love and serve Him.To do so voids the very purpose we have a mind, intellect and freewill; something God can’t do because it would mean He God made an error [IMPOSSIBLE FOR GOD] by giving us these SPIRITUAL GIFTS and then not allowing us to freely use them.
Please read: **Eph. 2: 11 ** “In him, according to the purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will, we who first hoped in Christ have been destined and appointed to live for the praise of his glory. In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,” Also read [Isaiah 43: 7. 21]
The difference dear friend, is that the Catholic position is expressely articulated in the Bible [Divinely Inspired Bible] while yours simply is not. I invite you friend to give evidence of not what you think, but what God says and promises.
May our Blessed Lord grant you mercy, understanding and wisdom to know what it is He desires, yea, even demands. Amen!
Pat
I appreciate the question. Putting aside for a moment the difference of opinion between our communions about what makes clergy valid, it should be quite reasonable to assume that Lutherans would continue, though admittedly not well at times, the practice of Confession/Holy Absolution, since from the earliest writings of the Lutheran reformers, the evidence is there that they believed in private confession.
IOW, one doesn’t have to be Catholic to believe that a priest-pastor/confessor is given the power by Christ Himself to hear confession and absolve in Christ’s name.
“As a called and ordained servant of Christ, and by His authority, I therefore forgive you all of your sins, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, Amen.”
As for why I am not Catholic, there are unresolved differences between us that I pray the Holy Spirit will one day overcome, and lead us to reconciliation.
Jon
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PJM
Guest
My dear friend, you’re position requires a Catholic Response.
Certainly both Luther and Calvin came from Catholic backgrounds and would have had, one supposes intimate knowledge of the Seven Catholic Sacraments, all of which were “Instituted by Christ Himself,” and all of them with a very long history of belief and practice.
That fact however gives no truth, no evidence to the claim that any Sacrament other than Baptism by water in the Holy Spirit, holds just claim to being valid, recogonized by Christ [which means that it too must be recogonized by Christ Catyholic Church [Mt. 16:15-19] [Mt. 18:15-18] and the issue here is the Sacrament of Known Forgiveness / Confession, [John 20: 21-23.]
The reason Baptism is not limited to the Catholic Church, is that in a real sense, it is essential for ones salvation. [John 3:5.] It is also for this reason that every Christian in a emergrcy can validily Baptize a willing non-Chrisitan. All the other Sacraments are highly benefical in ones salvation, but not in the strict sense “absolutely necessary” all though this sacrament of Confession comes very close to being so.
There is no sureity of forgiveness of sins outside of the Catholic Sacrament of Confession. God will judge deeds, not good intentions.
Love and prayers friends,
The reason for the Sacraments is to assist one with extra graces, to know God, avoid serious sin, and better be able to pay the price of ones personal salvation. It is no accident that these additional graces flow so freely in the Catholic Church, as it is after all is said and done, the only Church Jesus Founded, so that is Gods justification for limiting His Sacramental graces, to His Church.
God is and absolutely must be Fair and Just.
Love and prayers friends,
P
prochrist1
Guest
From what i understand it catholics don’t really confess to a priest per say but rather “through” him they confess to god is this correct?
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PJM
Guest
=JonNC;5763735]Wasn’t a very long moment, was it?
…except what you said about Baptism.
Hi Jon,
Ya know that Jesus did very few truly “new things.” Rather, He perfected, improved, clarified many OT beliefs and traditions.
From earliest times God called and set aside certain men for Priestly, intecessory duty. Look at Lev. 16: 20-22 for example and you will see that men [priest only] had an active role in the forgiveness of sins.
The role is not that mich different today with Catholic priest. yes the form, the proceedures, the process has been updated and perfected by Jesus Christ, but just as OT priest were essential to the “letting go” of sins; so too in this time, a man called to ministery by God * with an active role of participating in the forgiveness of sin. Then and now, it it God who forgives, but then and now the role of the priest was seen as absolutely essentail in the process.
Jon, my friend, the bible is the Divenely [and therefore absolutely true] Word of God; God’s own teaching. One must avoid arrogance in quicky denying what the Bible [yes even the KJB] say’s. God will judge deeds, not “good intentions.”
This is a matter friend that you should prayerfully consider.
Love and prayers, Look again at mt. 16:19, and John 20: 21-23:shrug:*
D
Departed_Light
Guest
PJM said in part:
I am going to do some reading about the history of the Sacrament of Penance. I suspect the early Christian Church did not practice it as it is practiced today in the Catholic Church. I might be wrong, so I will need to check and see. I knew a priest that did his masters thesis on the history of this sacrament and I will start off by reading his research, it’s a two volume set and I have to find it so it might take me a while.
But I would like to add from your post where you said:
I don’t personally subscribe to OSAS so your remarks against it weren’t really for me to ponder or remark on. My question was an open one as I see the ideas of being “saved” or “born again” in various Protestant church speak in similar light to the ideas of Catholic Penance for the penitent immediately after absolution. Each is experiencing the grace of God’s forgiveness.
I am going to do some reading about the history of the Sacrament of Penance. I suspect the early Christian Church did not practice it as it is practiced today in the Catholic Church. I might be wrong, so I will need to check and see. I knew a priest that did his masters thesis on the history of this sacrament and I will start off by reading his research, it’s a two volume set and I have to find it so it might take me a while.
But I would like to add from your post where you said:
I won’t presume to tell God what He can and cannot do. He is God, I am not.
P
PJM
Guest
Excellent responce:thumbsup:
May God guide your path, and please send me a PM with what you discover.
God bless you friend,
Pat
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