Why do Catholics distrust Muslims?

[pismopal]

I met a Palestinian Muslim who had all his teeth knocked out by Israeli soldiers, he thanked Allah because sometimes - he said - he bad mouths people and it was a good reminder. You can find people anywhere my friend if you want. However, individual cases are neither here nor there, it’s trends we’re interested in isn’t it.
So how do you know what you say? From news reports? Is that knowing something or being fed what someone wants you to think? Bit like Arab TV being plastered with ‘news’ of Palestinians being killed or Chechens or Iraqis or… It just goes on. The religious person just prays for these people and says only God is victorious. I dislike all this media attention driving an us vs them agenda.
Seriously look at you history too. Why are Copy’s in Egypt? How on earth did they get there? Exterminated in Byzantine lands. Hang on why is it Christians have been part of Muslim society since it’s inception? And why is it the first Ottoman diplomats were not allowed into England until they took baptism? Why have all the Muslims been expelled or exterminated in Spain or Sicily? They were there for centuries, so why is that? Why did the Ottomans and Maghribis build synagogues for Jews fleeing Christian armies in the reconquista. Why was that?
There’s obviously loads going on isn’t there and you can’t just reduce everything to we good they bad. It doesn’t help that Churches in the middle east have used underhand tactics to spread or that they have often been a means to implement the hegemony of foreign colonialist powers.
Maybe we can’t find a Christian country these days… Because they aren’t any? They’re secular. So with that in mind then when Christian bad because ritually burned Muslims like in UK 200 years ago then when fully secularised then good. QED Christianity must be evil! C’mon man! You can’t make such simple, biased media influenced arguments because Muslims and all non Christoans can (and do!) so now what?
I sincerely ask you to read a few general books on the middle east from reputable universities like Oxford or Harvard. Don’t take my word for it, just read them then we can discuss it ok

By asking me to “read about the middle east” you are trying to capture the intellectual high ground just as you have tried to capture and hold the moral high ground by calling me a hater and preaching to me about how Christians are “just as bad”. You have danced around current events long enough to convince me that you are just going to dance. You assume that I am motivated by hate because you don’t agree with what I have said…now you explain that I need to catch up with you by doing a little reading…the assumption you would like for others to make is that I have not read about the subject. Nice try but you have not answered the question I asked because you can’t and now everyone who reads these little tidbits…knows it. I am not practising Jr college debating skills here. I found out what I always suspected…so have a nice day…" That means goodbye for awhile…

 

[karebear92]

First, my apologies. I was reading the hating Islam thread and wrote hate. It was an accident. Notice how in the next sentence I typed “trust”. It was an accident. I do apologize for that, however. I didn’t quote you as saying that, though. If you did I would have placed it in quotes.

In view of historical events…current or ancient, are there any reasons to trust muslims?..Just askin’

I don’t know all muslims but I do know islam and I choose not to trust the adherants until I have a good reason. I don’t know all the inmates in the prison at Pelican Bay ,California either but for safety, they must all be lumped together.

You live in California! Why wouldn’t you trust them? I presume we are not talking about a portion of Afghanistan controlled by the Taliban. I wouldn’t trust anyone in that environment.

You failed to answer my question. And you accuse me of lumping an entire religion with the fact that it’s adherants are persecuting Christians and other religions. How do YOU judge whether something is “good or bad”?

I did not accuse you of lumping them together. You said you did, as you would for prisoners at Pelican Bay. See how offensive that sounds? You place Muslims in the same category as prisoners. Innocent Muslims. Most prisoners at Pelican Bay are not innocent.

You find the word “hate” in any of my posts and if so bring it to my attention or correct the accusation.You speak as if I don’t know anything about the creation of men by God.

I apologized for the first, but then you do the same thing? I never said that you don’t know anything about the creation of men by God. I simply think that you have an unfair prejudice against Muslims.

pismopal:

There is a manner of thinking that I believe is called “new age”…but whatever it is called, when people refuse to recognize things as good or bad. The usual position is “who are we to judge”? I think you might…I say might, benefit from a conversation with a Christian victim of muslim violence toward Christians. I have had about 6 of these conversations and they are tragic and scary.One of these is an ethnic Chinese Catholic lady who fled Indonesis because of real threats…you do know that Indonesia is the largest islamic country in the world? Yea, I thought so…

Okay, I will finally answer your question the way you want me to: America. People do things, like not trust Muslims, make fun of Muslims, ask to not sit next to Muslims on airplanes. Muslim children are bullied and called terrorists in school. That is persecution…mostly by Christians, and following your logic, Christians are persecuting Muslims, and Muslims should not trust Christians.

pismopal:

If you call my position of recognizing the danger and threat of islam and being vocal and honest about it as “persecution”…you are simply so wrong it is incredible.

I disagree. By not trusting them the same as you would a Catholic, Protestant, or atheist, for no reason other than their religion, and then comparing them to prisoners at Pelican Bayyou are being offensive. You are not physically persecuting them, but you are emotionally and mentally. Imagine if someone said they don’t trust you or your children for no reason other than you are one of those arrogant Catholics who always think they’re better than everyone else and condone pedophilia… Wait, what? No, I am not calling you a pedophile or arrogant, but many people do lump us Catholics into that because they have met Catholics who act like that and they see think of our leaders as pedophiles, who’s offenses against children we tried to hide, which allows them to go to a different area and do it again. I know it isn’t true and so do you, but it is offensive, right?

pismopal:

You have not answered the challenge you gave yourself by naming the persecution of muslims by Christians…only old bromides about crusades. You talk about not judging individuals as if what they profess has no meaning. You have not addressed situations where huge mobs of muslims in islamic coutries have burned Churches with Christians inside. You write this off as if it was an assasination involving 1 renegade muslim. If we are to judge people who say that they hate Jews and wish to exterminate all Jews…but they haven’t actually harmed one yet…I suppose that individual is welcome to come over for dinner and a drink?

Either this is a terrible analogy, or you are wrong. Not all Muslims want to kill Christians and Jews. Most Muslims don’t. We have large gangs who share our skin color (doesn’t matter which race you are) and kill people for no reason other than their skin color. SHould blacks not trust white because the KKK did terrible things? People choose their religion, but it is not as easy as you say to dismiss what they believe as children. Some even argue that most people don’t choose but inherit their religion.

 

[karebear92]

pismopal:

You are in the annoying habit of misquoting and mis characterizing what I say. I said in my original post that trusting a muslim comes to me as a result of one showing that he can be trusted…and this is not theory, it is something I have practised in real life…not in a college class room.
I am again challenging you to “make the case” that muslims are no worse than Christians when it involves persecution and violence…now…today please. You said it could be easilly done. We are waiting:blush:

To be habitual, you have to do it more than once.
If you practice that we all people, then it isn’t a problem, but it appears that you only do that with Muslims and criminals. There aren’t many Muslims in Nebraska, so I only have one Muslim that I know. Ironically, she sits next to me in my Christianity in Context class. I trusted her just as much as I trusted anyone else that I didn’t know. She is not an exception to the rule but the norm. She has told me stories about how her parents have been treated poorly (by Americans) for looking the way they do and believing differently. I don’t have six people that I have talked to, but it is happening all over America. I also never said that it was easy. Please find where I say that or correct your claim. You have a habit of misquoting me.

I don’t mean to sound snippy. I am just kidding about the misquoting and correcting thing.

God bless!

 

[Peace_of_cake]

By asking me to “read about the middle east” you are trying to capture the intellectual high ground just as you have tried to capture and hold the moral high ground by calling me a hater and preaching to me about how Christians are “just as bad”. You have danced around current events long enough to convince me that you are just going to dance. You assume that I am motivated by hate because you don’t agree with what I have said…now you explain that I need to catch up with you by doing a little reading…the assumption you would like for others to make is that I have not read about the subject. Nice try but you have not answered the question I asked because you can’t and now everyone who reads these little tidbits…knows it. I am not practising Jr college debating skills here. I found out what I always suspected…so have a nice day…" That means goodbye for awhile…

I think pismopal that you’ve mistaken me for the other chap - I never said you hate etc. However I generally agree with him.
I didnt really try to dance around the issue, I just think the question is so hopelessly unspecific that it can’t really be answered. Basically are you saying show me a modern Christian country where Muslims are Ill treated with violence. Firstly where is there a Christian country? Ok 72% of English people defined themselves as Christian in the census so will that do? Personally i think it’s tenuous. Anyway what kind of violence? You mentioned attacks in churches so I assume you’re referring to the church in Baghdad? Well around the same time a mosque was firebombed in Yorkshire. Will that do? Obviously most brits where horrified just as Iraqis were, it was done by people that claimed a religious background but shunned by it, and the locals helped victims in both cases. In fact the only difference is that the Baghdad Church made international news.
My argument is fairly simple: it’s complex and can’t be reduced into us and them.
Noticed you didn’t deal with one point I made. Seriously though, they weren’t there for you to respond to point by point, but simply to make you think and hopefully understand my argument. The liking of Islam or otherwise is irrelevant, I simply want you to be aware of the complexity of the middle east and remind you as your brother to love your neighbour - it’s difficult with reductionist perspectives to do so.
All the best

 

[KathleenGee]

CompSciGuy…is pretty much on the same page as this…

What citizens are unable to do is voice public grievance and visibly united against that class of Muslims who are committing evil against their neighbor in the name of God.

And people here have to know that Egypt, Syria, and Palestine were once heavily populated Christian countries.

 

[hosemonkey]

From Catholic World News:

Ayman Nabil Labib, a 17-year-old Coptic Christian student, was murdered by Muslim classmates after refusing to remove a crucifix he was wearing, the Assyrian International News Agency is reporting.
The murder, which took place on October 16 in the central Egyptian town of Mallawi, took place after a teacher asked Labib to cover up a tattooed cross on his wrist. Labib refused, instead uncovering a cross necklace.
“The teacher nearly choked my son, and some Muslim students joined in the beating,” said Labib’s father.
“They beat my son so much in the classroom that he fled to the lavatory on the ground floor, but they followed him and continued their assault,” the victim’s mother added. “When one of the supervisors took him to his room, Ayman was still breathing. The ambulance transported him from there dead, one hour later.”

Islam, “religion of peace?” I don’t think so. When the first Catholic Church goes up in Saudi Arabia, then maybe I will start to trust them. Until then, no.

 

[Brendan]

I didn’t know that we did. Perhaps it stems from the crusades for some, .

It started well before the Crusades.

All of North Africa and Asia Minor were once Christian. St. Augustine was Bishop of Hippo, in what is now Libya, for example and virtually no one in Egypt was ethnicly Arab. The residents of what is now Turkey were ethnic Greeks.

Those lands were conqured by Muslim Arabs and Turks and the Christian populations dispersed.

That does not exactly inspire trust.

 

[karebear92]

It started well before the Crusades.

All of North Africa and Asia Minor were once Christian. St. Augustine was Bishop of Hippo, in what is now Libya, for example and virtually no one in Egypt was ethnicly Arab. The residents of what is now Turkey were ethnic Greeks.

Those lands were conqured by Muslim Arabs and Turks and the Christian populations dispersed.

That does not exactly inspire trust.

Wow, the crazy thing is that I just learned that in my world literature class twenty minutes ago…

I hope that you aren’t saying that we should hold that against Muslims today.

 

[karebear92]

From Catholic World News:

Ayman Nabil Labib, a 17-year-old Coptic Christian student, was murdered by Muslim classmates after refusing to remove a crucifix he was wearing, the Assyrian International News Agency is reporting.
The murder, which took place on October 16 in the central Egyptian town of Mallawi, took place after a teacher asked Labib to cover up a tattooed cross on his wrist. Labib refused, instead uncovering a cross necklace.
“The teacher nearly choked my son, and some Muslim students joined in the beating,” said Labib’s father.
“They beat my son so much in the classroom that he fled to the lavatory on the ground floor, but they followed him and continued their assault,” the victim’s mother added. “When one of the supervisors took him to his room, Ayman was still breathing. The ambulance transported him from there dead, one hour later.”

Islam, “religion of peace?” I don’t think so. When the first Catholic Church goes up in Saudi Arabia, then maybe I will start to trust them. Until then, no.

In America we burn Korans. Or we try to blow up Mosques. Many Muslims view America as going to war against them (as a religious war). Is it true? Of course not. Some people acted in hatred and violence, but you can’t judge an entire culture because of it.

 

[Brendan]

I hope that you aren’t saying that we should hold that against Muslims today.

No more so than they should hold the Crusades against us

 

[chevalier]

I do not distrust individual Muslims just because of their faith but I do distrust the religion itself and Muslim regimes from Abu Bakr (or even Muhammad himself) to modern times, on account of the conquests and violence. Issues with certain parts of the Qu’ran have already been mentioned. It feels to me like casting Islam as a religion of peace would require some impossible logical leaps in the light of this. Persecutions, including the recent death penalty for Asia Bibi for “blasphemy of Islam” when she just defended herself from nagging women that wanted to convert her to Islam, don’t help matters.

 

[scipio337]

I met a Palestinian Muslim who had all his teeth knocked out by Israeli soldiers, he thanked Allah because sometimes - he said - he bad mouths people and it was a good reminder. You can find people anywhere my friend if you want. However, individual cases are neither here nor there, it’s trends we’re interested in isn’t it.
So how do you know what you say? From news reports? Is that knowing something or being fed what someone wants you to think? Bit like Arab TV being plastered with ‘news’ of Palestinians being killed or Chechens or Iraqis or… It just goes on. The religious person just prays for these people and says only God is victorious. I dislike all this media attention driving an us vs them agenda.
Seriously look at you history too. Why are Copy’s in Egypt? How on earth did they get there? Exterminated in Byzantine lands. Hang on why is it Christians have been part of Muslim society since it’s inception? And why is it the first Ottoman diplomats were not allowed into England until they took baptism? Why have all the Muslims been expelled or exterminated in Spain or Sicily? They were there for centuries, so why is that? Why did the Ottomans and Maghribis build synagogues for Jews fleeing Christian armies in the reconquista. Why was that?
There’s obviously loads going on isn’t there and you can’t just reduce everything to we good they bad. It doesn’t help that Churches in the middle east have used underhand tactics to spread or that they have often been a means to implement the hegemony of foreign colonialist powers.
Maybe we can’t find a Christian country these days… Because they aren’t any? They’re secular. So with that in mind then when Christian bad because ritually burned Muslims like in UK 200 years ago then when fully secularised then good. QED Christianity must be evil! C’mon man! You can’t make such simple, biased media influenced arguments because Muslims and all non Christoans can (and do!) so now what?
I sincerely ask you to read a few general books on the middle east from reputable universities like Oxford or Harvard. Don’t take my word for it, just read them then we can discuss it ok

Do you know enough about the history of Sicily or Spain to even make that statement? Did Muslims just emigrate from the Middle East to Sicily and Spain? (and there are PLENTY still there)

Did the Crusades or Spanish Inquisition spring up in a vaccuum?

Doctor, heal thyself before you start admonishing others to “read a few general books”. Start with a little research on the “Pact of Umar”, or read up on the different fiqh schools.

It doesn’t help that Churches in the middle east have used underhand tactics to spread or that they have often been a means to implement the hegemony of foreign colonialist powers.

Well, its a good thing that all major schools of Islamic jurisprudence call for the death penalty for an “apostate”, isn’t it??

 

[Peace_of_cake]

Do you know enough about the history of Sicily or Spain to even make that statement? Did Muslims just emigrate from the Middle East to Sicily and Spain? (and there are PLENTY still there)

Did the Crusades or Spanish Inquisition spring up in a vaccuum?

Doctor, heal thyself before you start admonishing others to “read a few general books”. Start with a little research on the “Pact of Umar”, or read up on the different fiqh schools.

Well, its a good thing that all major schools of Islamic jurisprudence call for the death penalty for an “apostate”, isn’t it??

I know a little, was going to do my PhD on medieval Spain. Anyway, my comments were to try and challenge a few ideas people may hold. Of course your right the Muslims invaded and the Reconquista and Inquisition etc were not entirely unprovoked. But some to make it an us vs them type situation and even worse, we good them bad! As you’ve suggested things are a little more complex and that’s my point!
How many times has the Church been blamed for the Crusades as if they were an entirely religious thing? There was so much going on… You can read books and books and still not be sure what the cause was. Islamic history is no less complex.
That’s true about apostasy. Personally I don’t have a problem with it, since it was very much a part of Canon Law ‘banished from the community and banished from the Earth.’ needless to say it’s pretty complex

 

[GaryTaylor]

I distrust anyone who carrys weapons and wants to kill . I’m not really prejudice towards Islam or anyone for that matter. Killing for some lofty idea, in my mind is another form of evil insanity. Can’t really wrap my mind around it.

At the moment they just happen to be the main one’s persecuting Christians. While I’m not their, I can feel their pain.

We can talk all day about the attrocites of the past. However it would probly be wiser to focus on the one’s in front of us at the moment with the sticks. stones and other weapons.

And yes I believe the USA ought to bring its troops home also. And that would be all of them.

Peace

 

[duneman]

neat you have a source i have been looking for opportuity to askk this question… is it true the Koran says Muslims have to kill us because we are infadels, i.e. not Muslim???

 

[GaryTaylor]

Good muslims are a foregone conclusion.

I could say very easily I know very good people who are muslim’s.

How does that quantify the world population percentage wise of Islam? I’ve never heard this question answered. Simple math would imply that if that percentage is less than 50%. Than there’s a fundamental problem. Truth be told, I doubt the stats. are that high is favor of moral ethical people who follow Islam.

Now look at the mob mentallity in the middle-east and its escalation? That percentage becomes a concern…No? What is it that breathes fire into an equation and makes it universal? Mathmatic resolution no? Its the simple dynamics of good and evil. In the end good and sanity will have the final say…or there will be no-one left alive.

If everyone goes home and lets the issue defuse itself, then at some point either Islam will unify and become a world issue which will result in a major war. Or they will resolve their own issues. I see no good reason to step in the middle of civil war. You?

Just Sayin

 

[andrewstx]

I do not trust Muslims for all the atrocities they have commited in the past.
When the Muslims conquered Constantinople they did permit the Christians to live without converting to Islam, but they were second class citizens. Their sons were forced to enter the army but they were forcibly converted to Islam.

Other Christians have not fared so well. The Turks conquered Armenia which was the first nation to become officially Christian. And the Turks were the first people to practice genocide.

They outright murdered the Armenians. Some were forced on long marches though the desert where the rest died of starvation and/or thirst. Only a few managed to escape.

To this day the Turks deny, to say it politely this genocide. Most Turks are not even aware of it, so thouroghly it was covered up.

When Hitler was planning his anti Jewish genocide he was reported to say: “Who remembers the Armenians”.

There is a film “Ararat” that gives a fairly accurate view of the Armenian genocide.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Truth is…

The USA and Israel have bent over backwards to give Palestine their own state. Fact is in 07 Bush along with the Israel leaders had the agreement drawn up. Giving Palestine 100% of what existed pre-67. They balked at the last minute. In comes Obama and its a dead issue basically.

Part of the reason most are thinking Republican this coming election by large concerns. Israel, Religious persecution, abortion etc. All issue’s our present administration has dropped the ball on.

Bascially its “the” reason I haven’t spent a great deal of time here as of late. I’m a bit more concerned with what we could accomplish in the short term. And thats to solidify the above issues and get back to “economy”.

Simply a matter of picking your battles where you can actually win them.

Peace

 

[Peace_of_cake]

neat you have a source i have been looking for opportuity to askk this question… is it true the Koran says Muslims have to kill us because we are infadels, i.e. not Muslim???

I think you might be referring to this verse:

Fight those of the People of the Book who do not [truly] believe in God and the Last Day, who do not forbid what God and His Messenger have forbidden, who do not obey the rule of justice, until they pay the tax and agree to submit’ [9:29].

Given that one may understand this verse to mean legitamising of indiscriminate killing of the People of the Book (i.e. Christians and Jews and the like) then I see how people are angry or confused. There are Muslim oppressors who use this verse to justify their evil agendas, but they are not Orthodox Muslims. Their scholars (ulama) have been very vocal against any such suggestion. Should we refer to the understanding of the commentaries (tafsirs) then we will see that the perceived thing is not the actual thing.

The Muslim State sent a messenger to the Byzantines, with the aim of asking them to Islam. The Byzantines killed the messenger. The Muslims sent an army and although thwarted, seriously unnerved the Byzantines who at that point were the World’s biggest superpower. The Byzantines were nervous by the strength of the Muslims and thus sent an army. A counter army was sent by the Muslims and they met at Tabuk. The Muslims were nervous to fight the Byzantines because they were people of God (i.e. Christians) at this point this verse was revealed. It was a reassurance that even though they be Christian they may be fought because whilst they intend the Divine in their worship etc in reality it is not what they worship, hence of the use by Haleem (the translator) of the word truly. The verse legitimises fighting them until they desist or surrender. Should the day be of the Muslims and they win the Byzantines’ (i.e. Christian’s) lands then they should leave them as a Vassal state providing they pay the tax and in so doing agree to submit to the Muslim rule, a true polytheist would be expelled. The verse is specific, but remains in the Qur’an should a similar situation present itself, i.e. an invading Christian force. It cannot mean fight any People of the Book under Muslim protection since this is impermissible (as stated) by virtue of the tax. It cannot mean fight People of the Book indiscriminately outside of the Muslims protection because it goes against the whole ethos of Islamic thought, to name but one verse: ‘But if they incline towards peace, you must also incline towards it, and put your trust in God: He is the All Hearing, the All Knowing’ [8:61]. There is a lot more that could be said, but that is an overview.

Some may claim it abrogates other verses, but it’s clear from their books they haven’t meant that. Abrogation used to mean one verse gave details to another general one. Abrogation where one verse completely overrides another ruling (as a term only comes later) and refers only to about 5 verses (as Suyuti said), which this and 9:5 (or the verse of the sword) are not part of.

It may also be worth noting that jihad is not perpetual war in the traditional view. Jihad in Arabic means “to strive for some objective”. Thus, the common assumption, that Jihad is combat, is incorrect. In fact Jihad, in its technical meaning, has several branches, among which are the combative forms of Jihad.

It’s basically a type of preaching. This is referred to in the Qur’an, “so obey not the disbelievers, but strive against them (by preaching) with the utmost endeavor with it (the Qur’an)” [25:52]. Here the word “strive” , is used to mean struggle by means of the tongue—preaching and exhortation—and persevere.

The explanation of Jihad in Imam al-Dardir’s book Aqarab al-Masalik is that it is propagating the knowledge of the Divine Law, commending right and forbidding wrong. He emphasized that it is not permitted to skip this category of Jihad and implement the combative form, saying, “the first [Islamic] duty is to call people to enter the fold of Islam, even if they had been preached to by the Prophet beforehand.”Similarly, Imam Bahouti commences the chapter on Jihad in his book Kashf al-Kinaa by showing the injunctions of collective religious duties (kifaya) that the Muslim Nation must achieve before embarking on combative Jihad, including preaching and education about the religion of Islam.

Basically they see it as people will be better off with Islam than without, Rather like the Romans thought of civilising the barbarians. However the main difference is that the Muslims do not have to rule nor do you have to accept their invitation (dawah) for them to achieve their aim. They basically want to be allowed to invite people, and jihad al sayf (physical jihad) is a reaction to those that stop them doing this by force. Perhaps somewhat double standards in that they won’t return the favour to another religion, but their main aim is to preserve their religion - not all that unreasonable

Hope that helps

 

[Poof]

From the Pope: "As a Christian I want to say at this point: yes, it is true, in the course of history, force has also been used in the name of the Christian faith. We acknowledge it with great shame.

Taking into consideration both the facts and the circumstances during that era, The Spanish Inquisition wasn’t all THAT bad. I mean, looking back at history from where we are, we easily brush the inquisition off as something wrong, which it is, however, the Spanish Inquisition can be justified to a certain level and it is NO WHERE as grave as its depictions in modern day media

The crusades on the other hand were filled with several shameful injustices, most notably, the sack of Jerusalem and Constantinople, however, the crusades were a just war and the sackings mentioned in this sentence were condemned by its (the crusades) leaders. Immoral actions during a war do not detract from the just cause of the war. Also, being a large unorganized group, injustices were also inevitable.

I love Pope John Paul II and him making a public apology on the crusades was a great thing to do. However, if someone had to make an apology on the subject matter then I believe the Muslims have more to say than we Christians do.