Why do Catholics distrust Muslims?

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The Muslim State sent a messenger to the Byzantines, with the aim of asking them to Islam. The Byzantines killed the messenger. . . .
So, if the Byzantines had just said “We don’t want any of your preaching, go away,” that would have been it, the Muslims would have gone away? Or was/is it all about being made an offer you can’t refuse?
It’s basically a type of preaching. This is referred to in the Qur’an, “so obey not the disbelievers, but strive against them (by preaching) with the utmost endeavor with it (the Qur’an)” [25:52]. Here the word “strive” , is used to mean struggle by means of the tongue—preaching and exhortation—and persevere.
In Italy, Jews used to be forced to listen to Christian preachers (in our synagogues) so this sort of thing echoes a bit. How much Muslim preaching would people have to put up with?
 
So, if the Byzantines had just said “We don’t want any of your preaching, go away,” that would have been it, the Muslims would have gone away? Or was/is it all about being made an offer you can’t refuse?
Yeah basically, it’s not an Islamic concept to start hostilities without some kind of cause. If the Byzantines said, no but thanks anyway let’s live in peace then it’d have been fine. Thing is Byzantines generally thought Muhammad was the Anti Christ and things like the Muslims were Gog and Magog so I guess they weren’t likely to 🙂 As the Arabs saying goes: ‘if you don’t fight the Byzantines, they’ll fight you.’ Relations weren’t exactly good.
In Italy, Jews used to be forced to listen to Christian preachers (in our synagogues) so this sort of thing echoes a bit. How much Muslim preaching would people have to put up with?
Theoretically not a lot. There’s lots of examples of the early Muslims merely asking and the person saying no thanks and that was the end of it. However ‘preaching’ is not generally considered the best method, good character and virtuous action being considered superior. They have no concept of ‘compelle intrare’ as the Italians used or more appropriately abused there.
 
In Italy, Jews used to be forced to listen to Christian preachers (in our synagogues)
After the Hierarchy of the Church was turned on to the revolutionary nature and out right blasphemies against our lord and Savior Jesus Christ found in the Talmud.
 
Catholics distrust everyone thats not themselves, just look at the posts on Protestant Christians.

Muslims have even less truth than them.

Simply to believe in Abraham’s God is to take divine self revelation back 4100 years.
Really? So we distrust everyone:confused: Would it not be better to say because we do not agree with the many interpretations of man through many man made churchs.

I trust many Protestant Christians. Many!
 
After the Hierarchy of the Church was turned on to the revolutionary nature and out right blasphemies against our lord and Savior Jesus Christ found in the Talmud.
Ah, another StormFront Talmud reader.
 
I haven’t read it. If I did, would I find that the Church and Saints were lying and it was actually pro-Christian?
It’s a generic term for the usual suspects in the 'Talmud tells Jews to eat Christian babies for breakfast" industry.
 
Yeah basically, it’s not an Islamic concept to start hostilities without some kind of cause. If the Byzantines said, no but thanks anyway let’s live in peace then it’d have been fine.
Do you have some support for this claim?
Thing is Byzantines generally thought Muhammad was the Anti Christ and things like the Muslims were Gog and Magog so I guess they weren’t likely to 🙂 As the Arabs saying goes: ‘if you don’t fight the Byzantines, they’ll fight you.’
Where is this saying found?

And did the Byzantines think these things before and after they were attacked by Arab armies?

I certainly take the point that both Byzantines and Persians had attacked the Arabs long before Islam–and vice versa. Some historians see the wars of Arab conquest as primarily secular–extensions of the longstanding practice of raiding the large neighboring empires, and spectacularly successful in the seventh century both because of the unity brought by Islam and because of the weakness of the Romans and Persians at that point. I’m not sure I buy that theory, though.
Theoretically not a lot. There’s lots of examples of the early Muslims merely asking and the person saying no thanks and that was the end of it.
Can you point to some examples?
However ‘preaching’ is not generally considered the best method, good character and virtuous action being considered superior. They have no concept of ‘compelle intrare’ as the Italians used or more appropriately abused there.
What exactly are you talking about? Compelle intrare is a term used by St. Augustine for how one should treat Christian schismatics, not non-Christians. If you’re claiming that Christians were more likely to force conversion than Muslims, can you provide some support for this claim?

Edwin
 
Ok. But what does it have to say about Jesus?
Hey, you’re the “Jews eat Christian babies for breakfast” guy, you’d know better than me. As to what the Jewish Talmud says, why not check out a Jewish site for a change.
 
Do you have some support for this claim?

Where is this saying found?

And did the Byzantines think these things before and after they were attacked by Arab armies?

I certainly take the point that both Byzantines and Persians had attacked the Arabs long before Islam–and vice versa. Some historians see the wars of Arab conquest as primarily secular–extensions of the longstanding practice of raiding the large neighboring empires, and spectacularly successful in the seventh century both because of the unity brought by Islam and because of the weakness of the Romans and Persians at that point. I’m not sure I buy that theory, though.

Can you point to some examples?

What exactly are you talking about? Compelle intrare is a term used by St. Augustine for how one should treat Christian schismatics, not non-Christians. If you’re claiming that Christians were more likely to force conversion than Muslims, can you provide some support for this claim?

Edwin
To be honest it will take too long for me to answer these (good) questions. So I recommend reading ‘A History of Christian - Muslim relations’ by Hugh Goddard [Edinburgh University, 2000]. I’ve got a pdf available here
Also, The End of the Jihad state by K Y Blankship [SUNY, 1994]. There may be a pdf? But you can get some through google books here
Generally there is a bit of discrepancy between theroy and practice (unsurprisingly) and I think the ‘theory’ that early Muslim conquest was really a continuation of the pre Islamiic tribal skirmishes for economic reasons is on the money so to speak. The momentum of expansion was out of direct control and so you have a group of ‘nominal Muslim’ Arabs simply acting as they always did (this tyope of behaviour is of course normal for tribal systems as evident in Saxon England). Another example of this is like the newly converted Berbers when they invaded Spain against the Caliphs wishes.
The Arab saying is very famous, just like the English: ‘its like telling your Grandmother to suck eggs.’ Most Arabs will know of it.
Some others I’d recommend are ibn Rushd’s Bidayat al-Mujtahid Vol 1 pdf trans;ated can be found here
And Tolerance and coersion in Islam by Y Friedmann (Cambridge University, 2003) there maybe a pdf? But the amazon link is here
There are some others, but this should give a good objective overview. Hope you enjoy the books.
 
Goddard’s work is pretty good, but I would also suggest some more reading critical of Islamic practice. Bat Yeor’s “Islam and Dhimmitude: Where Civilizations Collide” is a good starting point, Bernard Lewis’ “Islam and the West” and Hillaire Belloc’s “The Crusades” for a Catholic perspective.
 
Goddard’s work is pretty good, but I would also suggest some more reading critical of Islamic practice. Bat Yeor’s “Islam and Dhimmitude: Where Civilizations Collide” is a good starting point, Bernard Lewis’ “Islam and the West” and Hillaire Belloc’s “The Crusades” for a Catholic perspective.
Hmm, Bernard Lewis is OK. Bat Ye’or is just another Spencer i.e. mere opinion and dangerously right wing. Belloc is rather outdated, modern Islamic studies has ome a long way. Either way critical works are useless to understand ‘the Muslims’ instead it just gives perceptions of the author. Always best to stick with objective balanced reputable works first IMO
 
Hmm, Bernard Lewis is OK. Bat Ye’or is just another Spencer i.e. mere opinion and dangerously right wing. Belloc is rather outdated, modern Islamic studies has ome a long way. Either way critical works are useless to understand ‘the Muslims’ instead it just gives perceptions of the author. Always best to stick with objective balanced reputable works first IMO
I’ve found one man’s “objective and balanced word” is anothers apologetic. I try to read all sides involved, and make my own conclusion. There is a nugget of truth even in what you might consider “dangerously right-wing”, or even the dangerously left wing, like Edward Said.
 
What exactly are you talking about? Compelle intrare is a term used by St. Augustine for how one should treat Christian schismatics, not non-Christians. If you’re claiming that Christians were more likely to force conversion than Muslims, can you provide some support for this claim?
One thing that often upsets me is the double standards my fellow Catholics have. I’m not saying you are and I’m not saying most people do it deliberately, just that this quote reminded me (and I have a few minutes) and so I thought I’d share some thoughts.

It seems odd that some amongst us Catholics are so critical of the ‘tolerance’ of Islamic history. Whilst it certainly has its dark times, compared to its comparitive Europe it was really quite liberal. Maybe general rights of the dhimma were not quite up to the standard of the modern concept of ‘freedom of religion,’ but it would seem naive to think a rich tradition like Islam can’t accomodate such a view as Christiaity has. Especially when it has such priciples within itself.

There are fine examples like the covenant in Madina where Jews are described as part of one community' (Clause 1), and it is affirmed that a Jew who follows the Muslims has the same right as them to help and support (Clause 16). On the other hand, religious diversity is recognised and tolerated: . . . To the Jews their religion and to the Muslims their religion . . .’(Clause 25); and `It is for the Jews to bear their expenses and for the Muslims to bear their expenses. There is to be [mutual] ``help’’ between them against whoever wars against the people of this document. Between them there is to be [mutual] giving of advice, consultation, and honourable dealing, not treachery . . .’ (Clause 37).

Admittedly this idillic Madina was rarely actualised, but none the less it exists within their tradition and so it is a matter of merely reviving it (which many Muslims are or have tried to do). This ideal has lived on in the Muslim conscience and whilst some practice may be at variance with it, it has been reflected in their literature.

The chapter Al-Siyar in Al Hidaya (one oth the most authorotative works in the Hanafi school) makes interesting reading:
If non Muslims pay the jizya they have ‘the same right as Muslims.’
Non payment of the jizya does not invalidate agreement only joining the enemy
Its only due on free able bodied adult males, even monks and the poor are excempt (even the cost is small)
A Muslim in Dar al Har or Dar al Amn (Abode of trust, what the West is) are not to be treacherous and must observe the laws of the land as a sacred trust.
Churches/synagogues etc can’t be newly built but can be repaired or rebuilt
In the chapter on Hadd it states that a forced conversion is invalid so that if one were to revert they would not have any punishment.
Perhaps its worth noting that Dar al Islam is defined here, by Abu Hanifa, as anywhere where Muslims are not stopped from praying.
The whole book is really quite brief relative to the Dhimma and all the ‘2nd class citizen’ stuff is not really apparent (i.e. its got flexibility in terms of law and much we see in history is due to whatever government is in at the time).

If you trawl through all the books of jurisprudence then you’'ll find less understanding opinions, but they are not the norm (they are really there as discussion points between teacher and student). Generally the scholars of Islam have enjoyed healthy debate, but this does not mean its all available to the masses - traditionally. The masses on the whole only got the ‘mu’tamad’ positions, as articulated above.

Compelle Intrare (lead them in), as you say, was something Augustine mentioned as a commentary of Lk 14:12-24 relative to schismatics. He was against violence, as is clear, and by this coersive measure saw it more as economic penalties for wealthy heretics and whipping for the poor to try and ‘lead them in’ to the truth. However, during the Medieval period heretic became synonomous with apostate and then really with infidel and this ‘doctrine’ took on a new form.

When the Christians became the Imperium Christiana the Roman concept of sycritism, or a common belief for political stability, which had been the Emporer cult was repalced with Christianity. This is evident from the declaration of the Nicene Creed at the start of Justinians Law code (The medievals most influencial law book), that Christianity is the State religion and that which defines it. There are some interesting laws in there like should someone convert they loose all their assests and should anyone try to convert someone or throw stones at one who has converted then they are to be burned at the stake.

After the revival of Roman law and its Christianising as Canon Law during the Papal revolution (after 1075) then compelle intrare became used more and more to justify crusades (not just to the Levant) and the inquisition. Heresy became not only a sin, but also the crime of treason to the Papal state, like the Roman law of ‘lese majeste,’ and people were burnt (there is evidence this practice started in the 5th Century, though took off generally much later on).

Now we can try and ‘apologise’ or even deny it, but there is no escaping that this is part of our past. The reality was little like the emotive works that are in popular circulation, but stll somewhat ‘disturbing’ for us. Really it is just an affront to modern sensibilities not pre-modern (they had no problem with it). Personally I don’t have a problem with this history at all, it was just a different mindeset. Now we have a new one and Christianity can accomodate it.
 
Muslims likewise may try and ‘apologise’ or deny, but they can’t its there palainly. However, like us why can’t they adapt to the challenges of modernity? Islamic Law is more like Natural Law than Divine Law (i.e. its trying to uncover the sacred its not saying it is) and has a lot of flexibility especially when it comes to the mu’amalaat (worldly laws). Many of the ‘customs’ of the Dhimma laws have been attributed to the Persians (and interestingly it was a very similar situation in the Crusader states for Muslims). There’s no reason why they can’t revamp what they have to be ‘up with the times.’

They have bad Muslims and some terrible history, but so do we. They can use any argument we can. If we’re honest there is scope for peacful and beneficial co-habitation. If we’re dishonest like Robert Spencer who only point to little snippets of information and makes broad simplistic statements and the Muslims decide to ignore their ulama (scholars) and listen to DIY scholars then we better get prepared for war… do we really want that?

Lord, make me an instrument of your peace.
 
I’m equally outraged by the continual apologetic “but we did it too!” argument. In Islam, we have a DOCTRINAL, jurisprudential, AND historical record of this activity. While Islam lacks a central authority (since the fall of the caliph), when is the last time the Pope issued a fatwa encouraging people to attack Jews? Where is the doctrinal support in centuries of of Catholic philosophy for treating non-Christians as 2nd class citizens? Sure, every civilization or faith has had its share of monsters, but one only need look to the treatment of non-Muslims, the human rights record, etc., of the Islamic world TODAY to see this moral equivalence is silly at its best, and outright dangerous at its worst.

Islam might have been considered progressive for a 7th century desert raider culture, but what is even more surprising is its inability to modernize. Of course, I’m sure this will be dismissed as some cultural phenomena, or as the fault of the big ole mean colonial West…
 
Muslims likewise may try and ‘apologise’ or deny, but they can’t its there palainly. However, like us why can’t they adapt to the challenges of modernity? Islamic Law is more like Natural Law than Divine Law (i.e. its trying to uncover the sacred its not saying it is) and has a lot of flexibility especially when it comes to the mu’amalaat (worldly laws). Many of the ‘customs’ of the Dhimma laws have been attributed to the Persians (and interestingly it was a very similar situation in the Crusader states for Muslims). There’s no reason why they can’t revamp what they have to be ‘up with the times.’

They have bad Muslims and some terrible history, but so do we. They can use any argument we can. If we’re honest there is scope for peacful and beneficial co-habitation. If we’re dishonest like Robert Spencer who only point to little snippets of information and makes broad simplistic statements and the Muslims decide to ignore their ulama (scholars) and listen to DIY scholars then we better get prepared for war… do we really want that?.
Honest Q: Why do you call Robert Spencer dishonest? I ask because in the debates I’ve seen, nothing he says is “from his head”. He always points to Islamic authoritative texts and interpretations, and his opponents can never point to any concrete thing he says as being false because he cites authoritative scholars who hold sway in Islamic understanding of their own texts. They genuinely seem only to make broad generalizations like they accuse him of doing with Islam, except they can’t point to anything actually false about what he says. So could you tell me what it is that is dishonest with him?- I’m genuinely curious about this.

And true Christians have been horrible at times, but we can look at Jesus and the Apostles and say w/out fear of contradiction that certain popes, bishops, Christians were wrong, so we can reform w/out abandoning our faith. Can Muslims do the same? They would have to criticize their own Prophet, it would seem! Do you really think that is possible?

Peace!
 
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