Why do Catholics get so offended?

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DaddyGirl, I don’t think if a pope makes an ex cathedra statement, if can be changed. It’s dogma.

Luvtosew, remember you’re writing that on a Catholic, not nondenominational forum
 
From the Catholic Encyclopedia regarding ex cathedra:

But its present meaning was formally determined by the Vatican Council, Sess. IV, Const. de Ecclesiâ Christi, c. iv: "We teach and define that** it is a dogma Divinely revealed that the Roman pontiff when he speaks ex cathedra**, that is when in discharge of the office of pastor and doctor of all Christians, by virtue of his supreme Apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine regarding faith or morals to be held by the universal Church, by the Divine assistance promised to him in Blessed Peter, is possessed of that infallibility with which the Divine Redeemer willed that his Church should be endowed in defining doctrine regarding faith or morals, and that therefore such definitions of the Roman pontiff are of themselves and not from the consent of the Church irreformable."

newadvent.org/cathen/05677a.htm
 
DaddyGirl, I don’t think if a pope makes an ex cathedra statement, if can be changed. It’s dogma.

Luvtosew, remember you’re writing that on a Catholic, not nondenominational forum
Yes I’m aware of that, and I was responding to who gets saved. Tell me what I did wrong?
why did you get offended??

And as far as salvation goes a Church doesn’t save people.🙂
 
Yes I’m aware of that, and I was responding to who gets saved. Tell me what I did wrong?
why did you get offended??

And as far as salvation goes a Church doesn’t save people.🙂
I never got offended, but that’s heresy in Catholicism, just saying. :rolleyes:

Of course actual churches per se don’t save people, but the truth does, which will lead people to Catholicism
 
And I’m saying that not every Catholic gets saved and one does not need to be Catholic to be saved. I stick with that, one needs to have faith in Jesus as our Lord and Saviour.

Is one only allowed to post on this forum if one believes everything the CC teaches??:rolleyes:
 
I, for one, am deeply offended by Catholics who constantly come up with highly contextual and usually reformation-era statements. And, I mean it.
Cantate Domino isn’t just a highly contextual reformation-era statement. It is a Papal Bull, written by the Vicar of Christ. It can’t just be brushed off. The opinions of people that simply attempt to brush it is off yet cannot explain why can not be considered credible on the matter.

The Truth is the Truth. If a Truth is revealed, the era is was made is not relevant.
 
There are two separate discussions going on here. One is that the what a prior Pope stated is correct, and the other is that what the Church currently states is correct. The problem is that these assertations appear to state two entirely different things, and nobody is attempting to reconcile the two. If these two ideas cannot be reconciled, nobody will be convinced.
Post 18 gives the Church’s explanation of what the statement in the OP means. What the Pope stated is correct, and the Church has expounded on what he meant by it. The two have been reconciled.
From the Catholic Encyclopedia regarding ex cathedra:

But its present meaning was formally determined by the Vatican Council, Sess. IV, Const. de Ecclesiâ Christi, c. iv: “We teach and define that it is a dogma Divinely revealed that the Roman pontiff when he speaks ex cathedra, that is when in discharge of the office of pastor and doctor of all Christians, by virtue of his supreme Apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine regarding faith or morals to be held by the universal Church, by the Divine assistance promised to him in Blessed Peter, is possessed of that infallibility with which the Divine Redeemer willed that his Church should be endowed in defining doctrine regarding faith or morals, and that therefore such definitions of the Roman pontiff are of themselves and not from the consent of the Church irreformable.”

newadvent.org/cathen/05677a.htm
Right…but that doesn’t mean that everything a Pope says/writes will be ex cathedra. Dogma is divinely reavealed WHEN the Pope speaks ex cathedra…but the Pope doesn’t always speak ex cathedra.
 
Post 18 gives the Church’s explanation of what the statement in the OP means. What the Pope stated is correct, and the Church has expounded on what he meant by it. The two have been reconciled.
The two have not been reconciled in this thread. Statements and citations have been made about the Church’s current and past positions, but nobody has made any attempt to explain past comments in the context of the current citations.

Reconciliation of the two positions requires certain assumptions. Is it true that a pagan is a person who knew and rejected Christ? The two positions are not reconciliable without it.
Right…but that doesn’t mean that everything a Pope says/writes will be ex cathedra. Dogma is divinely reavealed WHEN the Pope speaks ex cathedra…but the Pope doesn’t always speak ex cathedra.
The current interpretation, like the past interpretation, is not ex cathedra.
 
LilyM #15
Now the church currently believes, professes etc that priests in the Latin rite need to be celibate. But saying so doesn’t make priestly celibacy either doctrine or dogma. It is mere discipline, and one that only became such after about the 1000s AD, and could change again tomorrow without the slightest implication for the dogma of Papal infallibility.
It is a discipline, BUT it is an Apostolic Norm from the very beginning, which will remain (Pastores Dabo Vobis, Bl JP II, #29, 1993).

There seems to be enormous confusion over what a dogma is, and what ex cathedra means. There is absolutely no need for any confusion.
The question of doctrine and dogma:
From Vatican I (Pastor Aeternus), for infallibility to be exercised the Pope must teach
(a) ex cathedra (from the Chair of Peter), that is as Shepherd and Teacher of all Christians,
(b) speaking with Peter’s apostolic authority to the whole Church,
(c) defining a doctrine of faith and morals.

So the Pope’s ‘ex cathedra’ definitions may be either of revealed dogma, to be believed with divine faith, or of other truths necessary for guarding and expounding revealed truth. Vatican Council II and the post-conciliar Magisterium have explicitly affirmed that both ecclesial and papal infallibility extend to the secondary doctrinal truths necessary for guarding and expounding revelation. Thus *Humanae Vitae *(Encyclical) against contraception, and Ordinatio Sacerdotalis (Apostolic Epistle) on male-only priests, contain infallible doctrinal definitions, to remove all doubt.

Vatican II (Lumen Gentium, 25) reaffirms this teaching: “The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful – who confirms his brethren in the faith (cf. Lk 22:32) – he proclaims in an absolute decision a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals.”

Thus, no dogma has to be affirmed, nor anyone anathematized, nor the word “define” or “definition” be used for an infallible papal teaching – only that the Pope is handing down a certain, decisive judgment that a point of doctrine on faith or morals is true and its contrary false.

The three levels of teaching are:
**1) Dogma – infallible **(Canon #750.1) to be believed with the assent of divine and Catholic faith.
2) Doctrine – infallible
(Canon #750.2) requires the assent of ecclesial faith, to be “firmly embraced and held”.
3) Doctrine – non-definitive (non-infallible) and require intellectual assent (“loyal submission of the will and intellect”, Vatican II, *Lumen Gentium *25), not an assent of faith. [See *Ad Tuendam Fidem, Bl JPII]

Vatican II, reiterated the teaching of Vatican I on papal infallibility, and its documents are readily available [from the EWTN Library (http://www.ewtn.com/vlibrary/search.asp, or the Vatican Library) for anyone with the will to know what Christ’s Church is teaching, like most of the documents of Vatican I, and the papal documents before and since Vatican II.

Also, through Google, you can easily access Vatican documents especially Pastor Aeternus of Vatican I, and *Lumen Gentium *of Vatican II.

The salvation of non-Catholics was known from the beginning:
Pope St Clement knew that non-Catholics could be saved from the beginning, for he wrote in about 95 A.D. to the Church in Corinth: “Those who repented for their sins, appeased God in praying and received salvation, even though they were aliens to God.” Catholic Apologetics Today, 1986, Fr William G Most, p 145].

Those who, through no fault of their own, have never known Christ or his Church can still be saved. But their salvation, too, is the effect of Jesus working through his Church. In a positive sense, this theological principle “means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body” (CCC 846).

The teaching MEANS that WITHOUT the Church there is no salvation – ALL salvation comes through Christ’s Church.
 
The salvation of non-Catholics was known from the beginning
If this is the case, then why did the Vicar of Christ, Pope Eugene IV, nearly 14 centuries after this was known, state definitely and assertively to the contrary on this matter of faith? Until that issue is addressed, the question and “confusion” will continue.

Six centuries after this Papal Bull, many Catholics still believe what Pope Eugene asserted. I even know a Catholic Bishop that asserts this (though not of the Latin Rite).
 
Whenever salvation is brought up among my Catholic friends in life or on this forum, Catholics seem to get offended somehow if you bring up Church teaching such as…

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:
“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are
outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics,
cannot share in eternal life"

Pope Gregory XVI, Summo Iugiter Studio (# 2), May 27, 1832:
“Finally some of these misguided people attempt to persuade themselves and
others that men are not saved only in the Catholic religion, but that even
heretics may attain eternal life."

People always bring up the subject of invincible ignorance, but since that’s not the normative means of salvation, why bring it up and vigorously talk about it? My question is, why do Catholics (at least in my experience) get so offended when “difficult” teachings about salvation and such are brought up?
Hi aball1035

Everyone needs to be Baptized in order to get into Heaven. When a person who is not a Christian finds himself in Heaven, it means he was somehow baptized, … probably Baptism of Desire. At any rate, it was a valid Baptism, even though he didn’t know about it.

Baptism makes one a member of the Body of Christ, the Catholic Church. If the person doesn’t know about it, he becomes a member if the Invisible Church (as opposed to the Visible Church), but nevertheless a member of the Catholic Church. Thus, even though many of the people in Heaven didn’t know about it, they were members of the Catholic Church. Thus it can be said that only Catholics go to Heaven.

Granted, saying that non-Catholics cannot go to Heaven is kind of a backdoor way of saying it, but if we look at it in this light, it’s technically true. Define everyone in Heaven as Catholic, and presto… It works.

Xuan
 
It is a discipline, BUT it is an Apostolic Norm from the very beginning, which will remain (Pastores Dabo Vobis, Bl JP II, #29, Library) for anyone with the will to know what Christ’s Church is teaching, like most of the documents of Vatican I, and the papal documents before and since Vatican II
Say what?! Our first Pope, St Peter, was married, doubtless so were other of the Apostles. St Paul warmly recommended celibacy for all, but by no means required it even for bishops. Furthermore, for 1000 years no priest, be they Latin or Eastern Catholic, was required to be celibate. And Eastern Catholic priests still are not required to be celibate!

I would love to know on what basis JPII called it a ‘norm’ - it doesn’t fit any definition of the word that I am aware of.
 
Say what?! Our first Pope, St Peter, was married, doubtless so were other of the Apostles. St Paul warmly recommended celibacy for all, but by no means required it even for bishops. Furthermore, for 1000 years no priest, be they Latin or Eastern Catholic, was required to be celibate. And Eastern Catholic priests still are not required to be celibate!

I would love to know on what basis JPII called it a ‘norm’ - it doesn’t fit any definition of the word that I am aware of.
catholic.com/tracts/celibacy-and-the-priesthood
Even in the Eastern churches, though, there have always been some restrictions on marriage and ordination. Although married men may become priests, unmarried priests may not marry, and married priests, if widowed, may not remarry. Moreover, there is an ancient Eastern discipline of choosing bishops from the ranks of the celibate monks, so their bishops are all unmarried.
But is there scriptural precedent for this practice of restricting membership in a group to those who take a voluntary vow of celibacy? Yes. Paul, writing once again to Timothy, mentions an order of widows pledged not to remarry (1 Tim 5:9-16); in particular advising: “But refuse to enroll younger widows; for when they grow wanton against Christ they desire to marry, and so they incur condemnation for having violated their first pledge” (5:11–12).
What percentage of priests during the first 1000 years of the Church got married though? It would be the norm if most priests chose vows of celibacy during that time period even though they had the option to marry.
 
A quick screen shot of how prominent marriage was during the first 1200 years of the Church is that approximately only 20% of the Popes during this time period were married.
 
ValPal #32
why did the Vicar of Christ, Pope Eugene IV, nearly 14 centuries after this was known, state definitely and assertively to the contrary on this matter of faith? Until that issue is addressed, the question and “confusion” will continue.
No real Catholic believes the confusion in which you are steeped, they believe Pope St Clement and Vatican II.

The definitions of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), Pope Boniface VIII in 1302 and the Council of Florence (1442) were associated with combating defections from Catholic unity and refuting heresies. The Council of Trent (16th century) solemnly defined the dogma of baptism by desire, recognizing “that actual membership of Christ’s Church is not required to reach one’s eternal destiny.” (Fr John A Hardon, The Catholic Catechism, 1975, p235).

The great Ecumenical Council Vatican II reaffirmed in the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church (Lumen Gentium #16) that non-Catholics may obtain salvation: “Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do His will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – those too may achieve eternal salvation.”

Bl John Paul II:
“Since Christ brings about salvation through his Mystical Body, which is the Church, the way of salvation is connected essentially with the Church. The axiom extra ecclesiam nulla salus"–“outside the Church there is no salvation”–stated by St. Cyprian (Epist. 73, 21; PL 1123 AB), belongs to the Christian tradition. It was included in the Fourth Lateran Council (DS 802), in the Bull *Unam Sanctam *of Boniface VIII (DS 870) and the Council of Florence (Decretum pro Jacobitis, DS 1351). **The axiom means that for those who are not ignorant of the fact that the Church has been established as necessary by God through Jesus Christ, there is an obligation to enter the Church and remain in her in order to attain salvation **(cf. LG 14). For those, however, who have not received the Gospel proclamation, as I wrote in the Encyclical Redemptoris Missio, salvation is accessible in mysterious ways, inasmuch as divine grace is granted to them by virtue of Christ’s redeeming sacrifice, without external membership in the Church, but nonetheless always in relation to her (cf. RM 10). It is a mysterious relationship. It is mysterious for those who receive the grace, because they do not know the Church and sometimes even outwardly reject her. It is also mysterious in itself, because it is linked to the saving mystery of grace, which includes an essential reference to the Church the Savior founded.”
(vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19950531en.html)
 
A quick screen shot of how prominent marriage was during the first 1200 years of the Church is that approximately only 20% of the Popes during this time period were married.
You mean only 20% are recorded as being married - wives weren’t always considered to be worth mentioning y’know, even wives of important people, and record keeping wasn’t as reliable as it is today.

Not that percentages matter that much anyway - they are only one factor in determining whether something is a norm (which is a different thing from being ‘normal’ anyways - the majority of people at least occasionally lie cheat and steal but that doesn’t make those things norms).
 
LilyM #34
Furthermore, for 1000 years no priest, be they Latin or Eastern Catholic, was required to be celibate.
False. Unfortunately, such misinformation still persists in some quarters, and it is the Eastern Church which deviated from this norm. Acknowledging facts is the essence of sound discussion.

While in the early Church most priests were married with few unmarried males available in the new Catholic societies, continence was the norm in the Church.

**Fr Ray Ryland explains the apostolic tradition of celibacy for all priests as attested by the then Cardinal Ratzinger ** holyspiritinteractive.net/columns/guests/rayryland/thegift.asp

“In more recent times, the predecessor of the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith issued an instruction in 1858 that stated: "Whoever ponders diligently the true tradition of celibacy and clerical continence will indeed find that, from the first centuries of the Catholic Church, if not by a general and explicit law, at least by behavior and custom, it was firmly established that not only bishops and priests, but [all] clergy in Holy Orders were to preserve inviolate virginity or perpetual continence. " 9

“That priestly celibacy is an apostolic tradition “is shown clearly and convincingly” by the work of Stickler, Cochini, Heid, and others. This is the verdict of then–Cardinal Ratzinger. 10”

**Cardinal Ratzinger in *The Theological Locus of Ecclesial Movements *(note 10), explains the unity existing with and from the apostles, including priestly celibacy. **
“That priestly celibacy is not a medieval invention, but goes back to the earliest period of the Church, is shown clearly and convincingly by Card. A.M. Stickler, *The Case for Clerical Celibacy: Its Historical Development and Theological Foundations *(San Francisco: Ignatius Press, 1995). Cf.
also I: Cochini, Origines apostoliques du celibat sacerdotal (Paris-Namur, 1981); S Heid, Zolibat in der friihen Kirche (Paderborn, 1997).” (p 483 n 2)
Notes
9 Quoted by Roman Cholij, “Celibacy, Married Clergy, and the Oriental Code.” Eastern Churches Journal , Vol. 3, No. 3 (Autumn, 1996), p. 112.
10 Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, “The Theological Locus of Ecclesial Movements.” Communio (Fall 1998), footnote 2, p. 483.
And Eastern Catholic priests still are not required to be celibate!
It is not “still’ it is from the unfortunate Synod of Trullo (692). There are at present married priests in the Church. One group is comprised of converts to the Church from the Anglican Church. The other is the clergy of the Eastern Catholic Churches. The latter priests follow specific norms, in keeping with legislation enacted by the Synod of Trullo in 692 and still in force.
 
No real Catholic believes the confusion in which you are steeped, they believe Pope St Clement and Vatican II.
No real Catholic speaks in this type of tone to another Catholic. It is very childish.
The definitions of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), Pope Boniface VIII in 1302 and the Council of Florence (1442) were associated with combating defections from Catholic unity and refuting heresies.
The words are clear. “It firmly believes, professes, and proclaims” is very strong language coming from a Pope, which is exactly why many Catholics believe this to be an ex cathedra pronunciation. You, and everyone else, continue to discuss everything but the words the actual words that proceeded from the Pope. The Pope’s words trump your opinion and statements any day of the week.

Please discuss the actual words. Are all Jews heretics? Are all pagans heretics?

Put the actual statement of Pope Eugene IV which the Church “firmly believes, professes, and proclaims” in the context of all your references. The continual citing of other sources simply skirts the issue. I expect that of a politician, not a Catholic having a discussion.
 
To ValPal #41
What is childish is stubbornly dissenting from the teaching of Vatican II (post #38), and from the clear explanation of the revered Fr John A Hardon, S.J., and Bl John Paul II as to the historical context of the definitions, as though your erroneous interpretations trump Ecumenical Councils and Popes.

The definitions of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), Pope Boniface VIII in 1302 and the Council of Florence (1442) were associated with combating defections from Catholic unity and refuting heresies.

As Dr Warren Carroll in *A History of Christendom *Vol. 3, The Glory Of Christendom, Christendom Press, 1993, writes (p 340): Pope Boniface in *Unam Sanctam *“was addressing those in almost universally Catholic western, central, and northern Europe who, might willfully refuse obedience to the Pope despite fully understanding the nature of the office he held and his supreme authority in the spiritual realm.” In a footnote Dr Carroll writes: “The entire population in these regions was Catholic except for a relatively small number of Jews. In the Byzantine empire and Russia there were many practicing Christians who did not acknowledge papal authority, but Boniface VIII had nothing to say about their spiritual status in this document or any others he issued.”
 
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