K
Kliska
Guest
Bingo, thanks.
- Status
D
Della
Guest
As I understand it, and I’m sure Don Ruggero will correct me if I’m wrong,
such depictions, while fine for private devotional usage, are not to be display in lieu of a crucifix on or near the altar. I’ve seen them used like that and cannot agree that they’re better nor that they teach the faithful anything useful, but rather are a watering down of the iconic value of the crucifix.
T
truetofaith
Guest
WOW ! That’s what we have over the altar in our parish. It’s beautiful & there are carvings of old people & cripples coming to the Risen Christ.
[stanpr.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Cross.jpg](http://stanpr.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Cross.jpg)
M
Michael68
Guest
We have churches in our diocese with the Risen Christ over the altar but not with a cross
D
Don_Ruggero
Guest
One can resolve the issue of the rubric by placing a crucifix on or near the altar of sacrifice, if, as I have seen the usage, there is such an image displayed on the back wall of the sanctuary.As I understand it, and I’m sure Don Ruggero will correct me if I’m wrong,
You are right that it should not substitute for the prescribed crucifix on or near the altar.
T
truetofaith
Guest
I wish this was bigger …but you get the idea!
D
Don_Ruggero
Guest
That is lovely.
M
mdgspencer
Guest
A Catholic priest wrote on this very matter and has some interesting thoughts about this, in an article on why Catholics have the crucifix, at
dioscg.org/index.php/why-catholics-have-crucifix-rather-than-cross/
dioscg.org/index.php/why-catholics-have-crucifix-rather-than-cross/
J
JB_Brother_4446
Guest
This discussion of the use of the crucifix stems from a misunderstanding of Jesus’ last words, “It is finished.” The work of Jesus which started in the Cenacle and ended on Calvary is finished but we have a part to play. According to St. Paul, “Christ our Paschal lamb has been sacrificed; let us then partake in the feast.”
A
ajcstr
Guest
Just to add, the Eucharist is a participation in the sacrifice of Jesus, the Passover meal if you will, so the crucifix has more meaning in that way.
P
PJM
Guest
And HERE it is, and well worth sharing:thumbsup:
Why Catholics have crucifix rather than cross
A question often posed by non-Catholics is, “Why do Catholics have a crucifix in your churches?” This is a very good question to ask! As Catholics, the crucifix plays a special role in the liturgical tradition of the Church. In most of our parish churches, the crucifix is given a place of honor and prominence, usually located centrally above the altar or tabernacle. When you walk through the doors of the church, the crucifix is one of the first things to grab your attention: The open arms of our Savior gladly welcomes and receives us into His Presence.
In many non-Catholic churches, a simple cross is often used to adorn the “altar” area. There is a growing trend in many churches not to have any type of religious Christian symbol visible on the interior or exterior of the church, especially the cross. So why is the crucifix (a cross which holds an image of the crucified or suffering Jesus) so important in our Catholic tradition? Why not a simple plain cross, as is the custom in other Christian traditions?
The Church requires that a crucifix be visible during the celebration of Mass to remind us of the sacrifice of Jesus on the altar of the cross, which is made present for us each time we celebrate the Holy Eucharist. A simple cross doesn’t have the same visual or spiritual impact. Many non-Catholics will state that “my Savior is risen” and that “having an image of the suffering Jesus on the cross takes away from the power of the Resurrection.”
Catholics also believe that our Lord is risen, but we also need to be reminded of what Christ had to endure before the Resurrection could take place, namely his Passion and Death on the cross. The crucifix helps us better understand and appreciate our “theology of redemption.”
For some non-Catholics, the image of the crucifix is somewhat “offensive” and perhaps a source of “discomfort.” Spiritually speaking, the crucifix can help us better accept and live the words of Christ to “deny yourselves, take up your cross daily, and follow Me” (Mt 16:24). When some type of suffering comes our way, the image of the crucifix can give us spiritual strength and inspiration. We know that the Crucifixion of Jesus is a one-time event that can never occur again in history. But it is an event which should never be forgotten.
The image of the crucifix, whether it be placed in our homes, our churches, our schools, or our hospitals, makes sure that this sacrifice of our Lord for us is not forgotten.
Sometimes key moments and events in history which can never be repeated are memorialized forever through a piece of artwork. One such image which comes to mind is the Iwo Jima statue located on the outskirts of Washington DC. This beautiful and inspiring sculpture memorializes the courage and bravery of the Marines who fought so gallantly in this important battle of World War II. As Christians, when we gaze lovingly upon the image of our suffering Lord on the cross, we are reminded of the depth of Christ’s redeeming love for us.
A plain cross just doesn’t have the same impact. The crucifix is a visual reminder of Christ’s battle over sin, a battle in which He is the Victor!
END QUOTES
While Christ’s Death is memorialized forever in the image of the crucifix, we believe that our Risen Lord is with us, especially in His Sacramental Presence in the Holy Eucharist reserved in the tabernacle. As we gaze upon the crucifix, we see what Mary saw when she stood at the foot of the cross. What thoughts go through your mind when you look at the image of the crucifix? We know what Christ was thinking about when He hung upon the cross. He was thinking about us! END QUOTES
AMEN!
Thanks for posting the site
P
PJM
Guest
No DEAR friend
Let’s look at ALL of 7 “Last Words” to see** just why this is not wrong,** BUT nevertheless, an incomplete understanding:
THE 1st WORD
“Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do.”
Luke 23:34
THE 2nd WORD
“Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”
Luke 23:43
THE 3td WORD
"Jesus said to his mother: "Woman, this is your son."
Then he said to the disciple: "This is your mother."
Gospel of John 19:26-27
THE 4th WORD
“My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”
Matthew 27:46 and Mark 15:34
THE 5th WORD
“I thirst.”
John 19: 20
THE 6th WORD
They put a sponge soaked in wine on a sprig of hyssop and put it up to his mouth.
When Jesus had received the wine, he said, “It is finished;”
and he bowed his head and handed over the spirit.
John 19:29-30
THE 7th WORD
Jesus cried out in a loud voice,
“Father, into your hands I commend my spirit.”
Luke 23:46
Very much like the bible itself, taking just one of the seven words out of the complete context can easily lead one to either a limited, or even an incorrect conclusion.
1st let us explain the 6th word: “It is finished” ought to be taken in view of the “Mission” Jesus accepted on behalf of the Blessed Trinity.
His goal, among other things was to establish a NEW Religion, through a NEW organization that He termed “MY CHURCH”{singular} Mt 16:18… this new faith, {singular} Eph 4:1-7, new religion is the synthesis of what Jesus came to accomplish.
By choosing Peter to be His Visar / prime-minister, empowering Him and his successors Mt.16:18-19, Jn 17:17-20 & Mt 28:18-20, and pledging eternal protection Jn 17:18, Jn 14:26 & Mt 28:20, Jesus Had accomplished his given mission. So “It is finished” is better understood as “mission completed”
This is a critical point of understanding, because the Mission of Jesus, now completed opens the door to the wider and ongoing mission of Peter Mt. 28:18-20, cf. “YOU GO”, teach the entire world ALL that I taught YOU, and I PROMISE to be with YOU until the end of time.”
So even after His Death, there was MORE to be accomplished. And that explains the utterances of the 5th. WORD: “I thirst.” John 19: 20
Certainly having been deprived of food and drink all through His Passion, Christ was in a human sense “thirsty.” BUT Jesus is also Divine, and mere moments from physical death of his mortal body. So we can know that this was not a simple plea, NO! It was a final teaching.
“I Thirst” means that even after all that Jesus had done, all that He had accomplished, all that he had suffered and endured for our Redemption & possible salvation; despite it ALL, He still desired to do MORE. So what form did that “more take?”
The answer has two parts. Part one is HIS Church Mt 16:15-19, Jn 17:17-20, Acts 20:28 {Douay bible}, and Mt 28:18-20
Part 2 is the Third WORD; “"Jesus said to his mother: “Woman, this is your son.”
Then he said to the disciple: “This is your mother.” John 19:26-27
It was Divine Providence, NOT a mere coincidence that Jesus {GOD!} gave to humanity His Mother to be OUR mother too. WHY?
Here is the entire occurrence:
John 19:25-30 “Now there stood by the cross of Jesus, his mother, and his mother’ s sister, Mary of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalen. When Jesus therefore had seen his mother and the disciple standing whom he loved, he saith to his mother: Woman, behold thy son. After that, he saith to the disciple: Behold thy mother. And from that hour, the disciple took her to his own. Afterwards, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, said: I thirst. Now there was a vessel set there full of vinegar. And they, putting a sponge full of vinegar and hyssop, put it to his mouth. Jesus therefore, when he had taken the vinegar, said: It is consummated. And bowing his head, he gave up the ghost.
Notice that Jesus recognized both His MOTHER and John, BUT chooses to call them “WOMEN” and Disciple”; both names for the world in general. WHY?
Because He as “all knowing” GOD knew what a great benefit Mary as OUR Mother would be in the role of Intercessor par-excellence. Jesus KNEW as GOD how many Souls would be saved through Her protection, guidance, intercession and prayers. Jesus knew how many would come to HIM, through His Blessed Mother. So through Mary. Now our Mother too, continues the works {plural} of our salvation, If and when we permit Her to do in the Mission He gave to Her in His last moments on earth. AMEN!
God Bless you: “May the remembrance of Mary be ever in our hearts and May Her name be ever on our lips”.
{Fr. John Hardon S.J.}
God Bless you
Patrick
J
JB_Brother_4446
Guest
We do not commemorate the sacrifice of Mary at Mass but the sacrifice of Jesus, which started in the Cenacle and ended on Calvary. His work is once and for all, finished, done. I thirst does not mean He wanted to do more, it means He thirsts for us. He desires us to take the lifeline He provided us through His Passion in order to be with us forever. Now we must believe in Him and partake of Him.No DEAR friend
Let’s look at ALL of 7 “Last Words” to see** just why this is not wrong,** BUT nevertheless, an incomplete understanding:
THE 1st WORD
“Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do.”
Luke 23:34
THE 2nd WORD
“Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”
Luke 23:43
THE 3td WORD
"Jesus said to his mother: "Woman, this is your son."
Then he said to the disciple: “This is your mother.”
Gospel of John 19:26-27
THE 4th WORD
“My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”
Matthew 27:46 and Mark 15:34
THE 5th WORD
“I thirst.”
John 19: 20
THE 6th WORD
They put a sponge soaked in wine on a sprig of hyssop and put it up to his mouth.
When Jesus had received the wine, he said, “It is finished;”
and he bowed his head and handed over the spirit.
John 19:29-30
THE 7th WORD
Jesus cried out in a loud voice,
“Father, into your hands I commend my spirit.”
Luke 23:46
Very much like the bible itself, taking just one of the seven words out of the complete context can easily lead one to either a limited, or even an incorrect conclusion.
1st let us explain the 6th word: “It is finished” ought to be taken in view of the “Mission” Jesus accepted on behalf of the Blessed Trinity.
His goal, among other things was to establish a NEW Religion, through a NEW organization that He termed “MY CHURCH”{singular} Mt 16:18… this new faith, {singular} Eph 4:1-7, new religion is the synthesis of what Jesus came to accomplish.
By choosing Peter to be His Visar / prime-minister, empowering Him and his successors Mt.16:18-19, Jn 17:17-20 & Mt 28:18-20, and pledging eternal protection Jn 17:18, Jn 14:26 & Mt 28:20, Jesus Had accomplished his given mission. So “It is finished” is better understood as “mission completed”
This is a critical point of understanding, because the Mission of Jesus, now completed opens the door to the wider and ongoing mission of Peter Mt. 28:18-20, cf. “YOU GO”, teach the entire world ALL that I taught YOU, and I PROMISE to be with YOU until the end of time.”
So even after His Death, there was MORE to be accomplished. And that explains the utterances of the 5th. WORD: “I thirst.” John 19: 20
Certainly having been deprived of food and drink all through His Passion, Christ was in a human sense “thirsty.” BUT Jesus is also Divine, and mere moments from physical death of his mortal body. So we can know that this was not a simple plea, NO! It was a final teaching.
“I Thirst” means that even after all that Jesus had done, all that He had accomplished, all that he had suffered and endured for our Redemption & possible salvation; despite it ALL, He still desired to do MORE. So what form did that “more take?”
The answer has two parts. Part one is HIS Church Mt 16:15-19, Jn 17:17-20, Acts 20:28 {Douay bible}, and Mt 28:18-20
Part 2 is the Third WORD; “"Jesus said to his mother: “Woman, this is your son.”
Then he said to the disciple: “This is your mother.” John 19:26-27
It was Divine Providence, NOT a mere coincidence that Jesus {GOD!} gave to humanity His Mother to be OUR mother too. WHY?
Here is the entire occurrence:
John 19:25-30 “Now there stood by the cross of Jesus, his mother, and his mother’ s sister, Mary of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalen. When Jesus therefore had seen his mother and the disciple standing whom he loved, he saith to his mother: Woman, behold thy son. After that, he saith to the disciple: Behold thy mother. And from that hour, the disciple took her to his own. Afterwards, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, said: I thirst. Now there was a vessel set there full of vinegar. And they, putting a sponge full of vinegar and hyssop, put it to his mouth. Jesus therefore, when he had taken the vinegar, said: It is consummated. And bowing his head, he gave up the ghost.
Notice that Jesus recognized both His MOTHER and John, BUT chooses to call them “WOMEN” and Disciple”; both names for the world in general. WHY?
Because He as “all knowing” GOD knew what a great benefit Mary as OUR Mother would be in the role of Intercessor par-excellence. Jesus KNEW as GOD how many Souls would be saved through Her protection, guidance, intercession and prayers. Jesus knew how many would come to HIM, through His Blessed Mother. So through Mary. Now our Mother too, continues the works {plural} of our salvation, If and when we permit Her to do in the Mission He gave to Her in His last moments on earth. AMEN!
God Bless you: “May the remembrance of Mary be ever in our hearts and May Her name be ever on our lips”.
{Fr. John Hardon S.J.}
God Bless you
Patrick
P
PJM
Guest
So according to you and in support on our many Protestant friends, Mary is to have no role?
This discussion would be incomplete without an explanation of WHY we do what we do. To try to make the issue clear we will use the ”HAIL-MARY” [used in the Rosary] prayer, which is by far the most used prayer next to the LORDS PAYER, as our example of what we Catholics actually do, and why we do it.
**Hail Mary, [Lk. 1:28]
Full of Grace [Lk. 1:28]
The Lord is with thee [Lk 1:27]
Blessed are you among all women [Lk 1:42]
And Blessed in the fruit of your womb: Jesus [Lk. 1;42]
Holy Mary [Lk.1: 28]
Mother of God 1:35
Pray for us sinners [our catholic petition]
Now and at the hour of our death
Amen” **
From OUR Catechism
721 Mary, the all-holy ever-virgin Mother of God, is the masterwork of the mission of the Son and the Spirit in the fullness of time. For the first time in the plan of salvation and because his Spirit had prepared her, the Father found the dwelling place where his Son and his Spirit could dwell among men. In this sense the Church’s Tradition has often read the most beautiful texts on wisdom in relation to Mary. Mary is acclaimed and represented in the liturgy as the “Seat of Wisdom.”
In her, the “wonders of God” that the Spirit was to fulfill in Christ and the Church began to be manifested
506 Mary is a virgin because her virginity is the sign of her faith “unadulterated by any doubt”, and of her undivided gift of herself to God’s will. It is her faith that enables her to become the mother of the Savior: “Mary is more blessed because she embraces faith in Christ than because she conceives the flesh of Christ.”
2677 Holy Mary, Mother of God: With Elizabeth we marvel, “And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” Because she gives us Jesus, her son, Mary is Mother of God and our mother; we can entrust all our cares and petitions to her: she prays for us as she prayed for herself: “Let it be to me according to your word.” By entrusting ourselves to her prayer, we abandon ourselves to the will of God together with her: “Thy will be done.”
Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death: By asking Mary to pray for us, we acknowledge ourselves to be poor sinners and we address ourselves to the “Mother of Mercy,” the All-Holy One. We give ourselves over to her now, in the Today of our lives. And our trust broadens further, already at the present moment, to surrender “the hour of our death” wholly to her care. May she be there as she was at her son’s death on the cross. May she welcome us as our mother at the hour of our passing to lead us to her son, Jesus, in paradise
**2679 **Mary is the perfect Orans (pray-er), a figure of the Church. When we pray to her, we are adhering with her to the plan of the Father, who sends his Son to save all men. Like the beloved disciple we welcome Jesus’ mother into our homes, for she has become the mother of all the living. We can pray with and to her. The prayer of the Church is sustained by the prayer of Mary and united with it in hope.
As a life long Catholic, I find your position to be a bit “strange”
GOd Bless you freind,
Patrick**
J
JB_Brother_4446
Guest
So according to you and in support on our many Protestant friends, Mary is to have no role?
This discussion would be incomplete without an explanation of WHY we do what we do. To try to make the issue clear we will use the ”HAIL-MARY” [used in the Rosary] prayer, which is by far the most used prayer next to the LORDS PAYER, as our example of what we Catholics actually do, and why we do it.
**Hail Mary, [Lk. 1:28]
Full of Grace [Lk. 1:28]
The Lord is with thee [Lk 1:27]
Blessed are you among all women [Lk 1:42]
And Blessed in the fruit of your womb: Jesus [Lk. 1;42]
Holy Mary [Lk.1: 28]
Mother of God 1:35
Pray for us sinners [our catholic petition]
Now and at the hour of our death
Amen” ****
From OUR Catechism
721 Mary, the all-holy ever-virgin Mother of God, is the masterwork of the mission of the Son and the Spirit in the fullness of time. For the first time in the plan of salvation and because his Spirit had prepared her, the Father found the dwelling place where his Son and his Spirit could dwell among men. In this sense the Church’s Tradition has often read the most beautiful texts on wisdom in relation to Mary. Mary is acclaimed and represented in the liturgy as the “Seat of Wisdom.”
In her, the “wonders of God” that the Spirit was to fulfill in Christ and the Church began to be manifested
506 Mary is a virgin because her virginity is the sign of her faith “unadulterated by any doubt”, and of her undivided gift of herself to God’s will. It is her faith that enables her to become the mother of the Savior: “Mary is more blessed because she embraces faith in Christ than because she conceives the flesh of Christ.”
2677 Holy Mary, Mother of God: With Elizabeth we marvel, “And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” Because she gives us Jesus, her son, Mary is Mother of God and our mother; we can entrust all our cares and petitions to her: she prays for us as she prayed for herself: “Let it be to me according to your word.” By entrusting ourselves to her prayer, we abandon ourselves to the will of God together with her: “Thy will be done.”
Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death: By asking Mary to pray for us, we acknowledge ourselves to be poor sinners and we address ourselves to the “Mother of Mercy,” the All-Holy One. We give ourselves over to her now, in the Today of our lives. And our trust broadens further, already at the present moment, to surrender “the hour of our death” wholly to her care. May she be there as she was at her son’s death on the cross. May she welcome us as our mother at the hour of our passing to lead us to her son, Jesus, in paradise
**2679 **Mary is the perfect Orans (pray-er), a figure of the Church. When we pray to her, we are adhering with her to the plan of the Father, who sends his Son to save all men. Like the beloved disciple we welcome Jesus’ mother into our homes, for she has become the mother of all the living. We can pray with and to her. The prayer of the Church is sustained by the prayer of Mary and united with it in hope.
As a life long Catholic, I find your position to be a bit “strange”
GOd Bless you freind,
Patrick
My position is that Mary didn’t die on the Cross. Jesus did. We consume His Body and Blood at Mass. How this discussion of the use of the crucifix degenerated into a discussion on Mary I do not know. What I do know is that we should get back on topic.
P
PJM
Guest
P
PJM
Guest
Excuse me
I must of missed when "protestants STOPPED protesting
My friend, I CAN understand the effort to do away with the term; BUT until as Christ desired and commanded to accept ONLY:
One True God
One True set of Faith beliefs {even GOD can do no more, so all competing sets of faith beliefs ARE challenging Christ Own and that my friend seems to ME to still be protesting.
God Bless you
PJM
P
Padres1969
Guest
Simply put many Protestants do not place Christ on the Cross as symbolic of his being risen. He is no longer there, his work for our salvation being done. Catholics depict Christ on the Cross because they place a greater emphasis on his sacrifice for the world and it’s continual present nature during Catholic mass. That said, not all of what Catholics would consider Protestants choose to depict an empty cross. My own church depicts Christ on the cross. Albeit not in his tortured form but rather in his risen glorified form as a middle ground since his sacrifice is central to our mass as well but we also acknowledge his resurrection as well.
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
- Status