Why do Catholics leave Jesus "on the Cross" & Protestants do not?

[LutheranScholar]

I wouldn’t expect any other explanations from a Protestant than the ones you’ve given. Sure, by our baptisms were all Christians, but we weren’t left to wonder about important matters of faith and morals. Christ gave that authority to his Apostles not to all of us. We see succession very clearly in the pages of the NT. The whole history of the Church shows one group after another trying to usurp the authority of the pope through various coups and heresies. If there’s no defined leadership, then why all the bother to try to take control? Why all the battles over doctrine? Why even bother to have any sort of leadership? Why not just let everyone believe what he pleases? Sorry, but your ideas simply don’t match reality. You’re holding on to what makes you happy, and I hope you gain your salvation, as I hope to gain mine, but you are simply wrong on all counts.

As you wish. Our salvation has already been won by Jesus on Calvary and if that makes me wrong, then so be it. Nothing is beyond my God’s power to do, even to look at a sinner like me and send His Holy Spirit to strengthen and invigorate my faith, which itself is God’s gift to me. I guess we both have our ideas on who is wrong and who is right, but when we rejoice in the presence of God our Heavenly Father, maybe those differences we cling so tenaciously to will disappear in the light of God’s glory.

All the power struggles are due to human sin and ecclesiastical corruption. That was why the Reformation had to happen. We didn’t name ourselves Lutherans or Protestants, after all. Nor were we eager to be expelled and anathematized by someone who thought he could speak for God. The Gospel continued to be preached, though! Baptisms, Divine Services and retention of the creeds while newer creeds based more fully on Scripture were written. The Rock of Peter’s Confession of Jesus Christ as the Messiah, the Son of God, stood and stands fast! Every Catholic, every Orthodox, every Lutheran, every Anglican, every Presbyterian, every Baptist and Methodist who has been revitalized by the Holy Spirit has the hope of salvation and the love of Christ in his or her heart.

May God bless you in your journey!

 

[Della]

As you wish. Our salvation has already been won by Jesus on Calvary and if that makes me wrong, then so be it. Nothing is beyond my God’s power to do, even to look at a sinner like me and send His Holy Spirit to strengthen and invigorate my faith, which itself is God’s gift to me. I guess we both have our ideas on who is wrong and who is right, but when we rejoice in the presence of God our Heavenly Father, maybe those differences we cling so tenaciously to will disappear in the light of God’s glory.

Actually, our redemption has been won for us by Jesus on Calvary. Our individual salvation is another matter. And God will send his Holy Spirit upon all who are willing, but that doesn’t negate the need for proper authority in deciding matters of faith and morals. We can see how the Church dealt with the first challenge to her authority in Acts 15. It very much looks like the Apostles decided what was right and what was wrong to me.

All the power struggles are due to human sin and ecclesiastical corruption. That was why the Reformation had to happen. We didn’t name ourselves Lutherans or Protestants, after all. Nor were we eager to be expelled and anathematized by someone who thought he could speak for God. The Gospel continued to be preached, though! Baptisms, Divine Services and retention of the creeds while newer creeds based more fully on Scripture were written. The Rock of Peter’s Confession of Jesus Christ as the Messiah, the Son of God, stood and stands fast! Every Catholic, every Orthodox, every Lutheran, every Anglican, every Presbyterian, every Baptist and Methodist who has been revitalized by the Holy Spirit has the hope of salvation and the love of Christ in his or her heart.

May God bless you in your journey!

Indeed, all such struggles are caused by human sin–and rebellion against the authority God gave to the Apostles and their successors. This is historical fact. And calling a heresy by it’s name is something the Church has the right and responsibility before God to do, so the faithful are not led astray. Jesus definitely founded his Church with a visible structure and authority. You cannot get around it by spiritualizing it away. You just can’t.

 

[LutheranScholar]

Actually, our redemption has been won for us by Jesus on Calvary. Our individual salvation is another matter. And God will send his Holy Spirit upon all who are willing, but that doesn’t negate the need for proper authority in deciding matters of faith and morals. We can see how the Church dealt with the first challenge to her authority in Acts 15. It very much looks like the Apostles decided what was right and what was wrong to me.

Indeed, all such struggles are caused by human sin–and rebellion against the authority God gave to the Apostles and their successors. This is historical fact. And calling a heresy by it’s name is something the Church has the right and responsibility before God to do, so the faithful are not led astray. Jesus definitely founded his Church with a visible structure and authority. You cannot get around it by spiritualizing it away. You just can’t.

I don’t question the Will of God. I don’t need to " get around" anything, nor would I seek to deprive you of your faith and I’m glad that the Holy Spirit led you to the Catholic Church. I’m not interested in sheep- stealing, but in trying to approach various topics from a Confessional Lutheran perspective. For a Catholic, these views are necessarily wrong. One cannot rebel against an authority one has never acknowledged ( which is why people such as Orthodox and Protestants exist, much to the good Catholic’s chagrin, I’m sure)

I don’t question the authority of the Apostles in the Book of Acts, nor do I question the authority of the first three Ecumenical Creeds. Trying to isolate me from the rest of the Church, when I’m one part of many of the Body of Christ on earth will elicit little more than a hearty belly- laugh from me, as I’m aware of my predecessors in the faith, going all the way back to Jesus and the Apostles themselves. Luther’s Confessions all emphasize the continuity of the Evangelical Lutheran Church from the time of the Apostles to the Medieval Church, to the Reformers, to the Confessional Movement all the way up to the present day. Saying I’m wrong may confirm Catholic faith and teachings, but it doesn’t actually prove that I’m wrong.

Martin Luther’s criteria seem to apply here:

When Martin Luther was summoned to the Diet of Worms in 1521 and asked to recant his teaching, he replied, “Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not recant anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe. God help me. Here I stand, I can do no other.” gty.org/resources/articles/A243/Scripture-and-Plain-Reason.

If that happens to inconvenience churches that claim power not only over their own followers, but over followers of other churches ( who also have the Gospel and Sacraments), then that’s just what’ll have to be. It’s like a Lutheran sneering " heretic" at a Mennonite. The Mennonite will stare at him blankly and say, " that’s not what my own minister or congregation tell me and their opinions are the ones that matter to me."

The Lutheran might go home with elevated blood pressure, but the Mennonite will just have an anecdote for his friends the next time they get together.

 

[MichaelP3]

I don’t question the Will of God. I don’t need to " get around" anything, nor would I seek to deprive you of your faith and I’m glad that the Holy Spirit led you to the Catholic Church. I’m not interested in sheep- stealing, but in trying to approach various topics from a Confessional Lutheran perspective. For a Catholic, these views are necessarily wrong. One cannot rebel against an authority one has never acknowledged ( which is why people such as Orthodox and Protestants exist, much to the good Catholic’s chagrin, I’m sure)

I don’t question the authority of the Apostles in the Book of Acts, nor do I question the authority of the first three Ecumenical Creeds. Trying to isolate me from the rest of the Church, when I’m one part of many of the Body of Christ on earth will elicit little more than a hearty belly- laugh from me, as I’m aware of my predecessors in the faith, going all the way back to Jesus and the Apostles themselves. Luther’s Confessions all emphasize the continuity of the Evangelical Lutheran Church from the time of the Apostles to the Medieval Church, to the Reformers, to the Confessional Movement all the way up to the present day. Saying I’m wrong may confirm Catholic faith and teachings, but it doesn’t actually prove that I’m wrong.

Martin Luther’s criteria seem to apply here:

When Martin Luther was summoned to the Diet of Worms in 1521 and asked to recant his teaching, he replied, “Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not recant anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe. God help me. Here I stand, I can do no other.” gty.org/resources/articles/A243/Scripture-and-Plain-Reason.

If that happens to inconvenience churches that claim power not only over their own followers, but over followers of other churches ( who also have the Gospel and Sacraments), then that’s just what’ll have to be. It’s like a Lutheran sneering " heretic" at a Mennonite. The Mennonite will stare at him blankly and say, " that’s not what my own minister or congregation tell me and their opinions are the ones that matter to me."

The Lutheran might go home with elevated blood pressure, but the Mennonite will just have an anecdote for his friends the next time they get together.

 

[Peter_J]

the now meaningless term ‘protestant’

anglicancontinuum.blogspot.com/search/label/Protestantism

 

[GKC]

anglicancontinuum.blogspot.com/search/label/Protestantism

I suspect KjetilK has a simpler point in mind.

 

[KjetilK]

Because those two terms merely describe subsets of the larger, Protestant, set.

One could also talk of Latin Rite Catholics, Eastern Rite Catholics, and so forth, but the word “Catholic” still has meaning.

As does the term “Protestant”.

Perhaps, but my point was that saying ‘Protestants’ is weird when you actually mean ‘evangelicals’ and ‘non-denominationals.’ It would be like saying ‘Roman Catholics don’t like popcorn.’ Yes, there are probably Roman Catholics who do not like popcorn but that doesn’t make the general sentence true. There isn’t anything in the term ‘Roman Catholic’ that would entail not liking popcorn, and there is nothing in the term ‘Protestant’ (as it is used today) that would entail that crosses should be or even are empty.

 

[KjetilK]

the now meaningless term ‘protestant’

anglicancontinuum.blogspot.com/search/label/Protestantism

I suspect KjetilK has a simpler point in mind.

My point in regards to this discussion was that if you use ‘Protestant’ to mean any (Western, or Western derived) Christian who isn’t Eastern Orthodox or Roman Catholic, then you can’t say ‘Protestants have empty crosses,’ as that would be like saying ‘Europeans hate cheese.’

But my other point (which I alluded to in the words cited), that didn’t really pertain to this discussion, but is tied to it, is that these days ‘Protestant’ have become a meaningless term that only confuses. Now people lump together anything from High Church Lutherans to Baptists and non-denominationals and call this lump ‘Protestantism.’ That results in threads like this, where everyone who either identifies as ‘Protestants’ or is identified by others as ‘Protestants’ (even if they reject the determination themselves) have to ‘answer for’ everything that is said and done by anyone who identifies or is identified as a ‘Protestant.’ I don’t know how many times I have been asked to defend why I don’t believe in baptismal regeneration or the real presence because of course I must believe the same as some random presbyterian or evangelical. So in its modern usage, I don’t identify as a ‘Protestant,’ mainly because it has become meaningless.

Now, the historic definition was only used of those Lutherans (the six princes and rulers of fourteen Imperial Free Cities) who protested against Holy Roman Emperor Charles V’s enforcement of the edict of the Diet of Speyer in 1529, thus reversing concessions made to the Lutherans in 1526. I am from Norway, and in Norway the situation was completely different. Norway has never been part of the Holy Roman Empire, and in Norway it was the Reformation that was enforced by the government, not the other way around, just like in England. So in Norway (and England) the ‘Protestants’ would have been Roman Catholics.

 

[Della]

I don’t question the Will of God. I don’t need to " get around" anything, nor would I seek to deprive you of your faith and I’m glad that the Holy Spirit led you to the Catholic Church. I’m not interested in sheep- stealing, but in trying to approach various topics from a Confessional Lutheran perspective. For a Catholic, these views are necessarily wrong. One cannot rebel against an authority one has never acknowledged ( which is why people such as Orthodox and Protestants exist, much to the good Catholic’s chagrin, I’m sure)

I don’t question the authority of the Apostles in the Book of Acts, nor do I question the authority of the first three Ecumenical Creeds. Trying to isolate me from the rest of the Church, when I’m one part of many of the Body of Christ on earth will elicit little more than a hearty belly- laugh from me, as I’m aware of my predecessors in the faith, going all the way back to Jesus and the Apostles themselves. Luther’s Confessions all emphasize the continuity of the Evangelical Lutheran Church from the time of the Apostles to the Medieval Church, to the Reformers, to the Confessional Movement all the way up to the present day. Saying I’m wrong may confirm Catholic faith and teachings, but it doesn’t actually prove that I’m wrong.

Martin Luther’s criteria seem to apply here:

When Martin Luther was summoned to the Diet of Worms in 1521 and asked to recant his teaching, he replied, “Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not recant anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe. God help me. Here I stand, I can do no other.” gty.org/resources/articles/A243/Scripture-and-Plain-Reason.

If that happens to inconvenience churches that claim power not only over their own followers, but over followers of other churches ( who also have the Gospel and Sacraments), then that’s just what’ll have to be. It’s like a Lutheran sneering " heretic" at a Mennonite. The Mennonite will stare at him blankly and say, " that’s not what my own minister or congregation tell me and their opinions are the ones that matter to me."

The Lutheran might go home with elevated blood pressure, but the Mennonite will just have an anecdote for his friends the next time they get together.

At the time of Luther there was no Lutheran church–only the Catholic Church (in Europe) of which he was not only a member but a vowed religious. Of course the Church had authority over him. His was an act of rebellion. He may have believed to his very core that the Church was wrong, but he was still one of her sons who decided, of his own free will to disassociate himself from her. The pope of the time had every right to anthamize (if that’s a word) those who taught teachings contrary to the Church and left her for their own opinions. When a person is baptized into the Catholic Church he is subject to her canon laws. He knew that full well.

Now days people are not in open rebellion who were born into Protestant denominations. They are not considered formal heretics, but material ones–ones who aren’t guilty of formally rejecting the Catholic faith. Again, this has nothing to do with anyone’s spirituality or relationship with God, but rather with authority. Christian ecclesial bodies outside the Church are not in full communion with the Catholic Church, but they are our brethren in Christ. The differences in doctrinal understanding may be great, and we still want our Protestant brethren to be one with us again. But you are separated from the Catholic Church, hence you cannot receive the Church’s sacraments.

Jesus prayed that his Church might be one. One under one pope and one Magisterium, not many. No matter who was at fault, and there is plenty of fault to go around, it remains true that Christ founded one Church not many and that we should all be full members of her.

 

[GKC]

My point in regards to this discussion was that if you use ‘Protestant’ to mean any (Western, or Western derived) Christian who isn’t Eastern Orthodox or Roman Catholic, then you can’t say ‘Protestants have empty crosses,’ as that would be like saying ‘Europeans hate cheese.’

But my other point (which I alluded to in the words cited), that didn’t really pertain to this discussion, but is tied to it, is that these days ‘Protestant’ have become a meaningless term that only confuses. Now people lump together anything from High Church Lutherans to Baptists and non-denominationals and call this lump ‘Protestantism.’ That results in threads like this, where everyone who either identifies as ‘Protestants’ or is identified by others as ‘Protestants’ (even if they reject the determination themselves) have to ‘answer for’ everything that is said and done by anyone who identifies or is identified as a ‘Protestant.’ I don’t know how many times I have been asked to defend why I don’t believe in baptismal regeneration or the real presence because of course I must believe the same as some random presbyterian or evangelical. So in its modern usage, I don’t identify as a ‘Protestant,’ mainly because it has become meaningless.

Now, the historic definition was only used of those Lutherans (the six princes and rulers of fourteen Imperial Free Cities) who protested against Holy Roman Emperor Charles V’s enforcement of the edict of the Diet of Speyer in 1529, thus reversing concessions made to the Lutherans in 1526. I am from Norway, and in Norway the situation was completely different. Norway has never been part of the Holy Roman Empire, and in Norway it was the Reformation that was enforced by the government, not the other way around, just like in England. So in Norway (and England) the ‘Protestants’ would have been Roman Catholics.

In its own way, “Anglican” is also problematic.

And this is what I suspected you were saying.

 

[adamhovey1988]

Some high church Protestants have no problem with crucifixes. I don’t know what you’re asking.

 

[LutheranScholar]

At the time of Luther there was no Lutheran church–only the Catholic Church (in Europe) of which he was not only a member but a vowed religious. Of course the Church had authority over him. His was an act of rebellion. He may have believed to his very core that the Church was wrong, but he was still one of her sons who decided, of his own free will to disassociate himself from her. The pope of the time had every right to anthamize (if that’s a word) those who taught teachings contrary to the Church and left her for their own opinions. When a person is baptized into the Catholic Church he is subject to her canon laws. He knew that full well.

Now days people are not in open rebellion who were born into Protestant denominations. They are not considered formal heretics, but material ones–ones who aren’t guilty of formally rejecting the Catholic faith. Again, this has nothing to do with anyone’s spirituality or relationship with God, but rather with authority. Christian ecclesial bodies outside the Church are not in full communion with the Catholic Church, but they are our brethren in Christ. The differences in doctrinal understanding may be great, and we still want our Protestant brethren to be one with us again. But you are separated from the Catholic Church, hence you cannot receive the Church’s sacraments.

Jesus prayed that his Church might be one. One under one pope and one Magisterium, not many. No matter who was at fault, and there is plenty of fault to go around, it remains true that Christ founded one Church not many and that we should all be full members of her.

Luther wasn’t interested in blaming the Church for some errant teachings and newer traditions that some of those who were her temporal leaders introduced as critical to the life of faith. He remained loyal to the Church to the day of his death. His teachings regarding faith had also been taught by luminaries such as St. Francis of Assisi and St. Augustine of Hippo. Pope Leo X, Johann von Eck and others who were interested in raising revenue for the construction of St. Peter’s Basilica in Rome sold indulgences for that purpose. Luther appealed to a General Church Council to address some of his ( and others’) concerns. That Council was delayed over and over again, during which time Luther was excommunicated ( and responded by excommunicating in his turn those who thought to cut him off from the Church:law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/luther/againstexecrablebull.html ) and the five solae were introduced; sola Scriptura, sola Fide, sola Gratiae, Solus Christus and Soli Deo Gloria. Scripture alone, from which Luther and his followers derived their doctrine and expanded that doctrine in their Confessions. Faith alone, through which we are brought to a knowledge of God’s saving work and the salvation won for us through Jesus Christ. Grace alone, God’s compassion and favor by which the Holy Spirit is delivered into the hearts of people. Christ alone, Who alone is the Author and Finisher of our faith and through Whom we enter into eternal life. To God alone be the glory. Only God is to be prayed to. Only God is to be looked to for help and salvation. No saints, not the blessed Mother, nobody’s " extra merits" can be applied to another by invocation or works.

Luther saw clerical abuses and appealed in good faith to a Council. He was derided as a " drunken German who will change his mind when he’s sober." Rich, coming from a Medici Pope who seems to have been famous for his own propensity for self- indulgence ( the papacy as a temporal kingdom, really?) britannica.com/biography/Leo-X. The Catalog of Testimonies declare that the Evangelical ministers ( " Lutherans," if you wish) taught no strange and new doctrines, but simply acted in continuity with the teachings of the apostles from the earliest age: bookofconcord.org/testimonies.php.

Of course, what is authoritative for us is meaningless to you, which is to be expected. In turn, those things that you believe vital to the life of the church might be regarded as just so much adiaphora ( nonessential teachings) by us. Catholics blame Lutherans for sundering the Church and our Confessions hold the Catholic Bishops accountable for the split. Frankly, we call* each other* heretics, but that’s meaningless in the face of our own communities as I pointed out above. It’s also irrelevant. Where two or more are gathered in Jesus’ name, there He is among them. I don’t recall reading that " there He is among them, as long as they share the same doctrine, have the same hierarchy, believe everything the higher- ups pass down to them." Also, elitist apostles tried to hinder somebody from outside their group from working wonders in Jesus’ name, but Jesus told them to butt out and leave the poor guy alone. The Gospel will spread, with or without the temporal " stamp of approval" of one church or other and the Holy Spirit’s not bound, neither is the Word of God, to the protestations of an institution.

 

[Peter_J]

Perhaps, but my point was that saying ‘Protestants’ is weird when you actually mean ‘evangelicals’ and ‘non-denominationals’.

Good point. (I didn’t quite get what you were saying at first.)

 

[LutheranScholar]

Jesus prayed that his Church might be one. **One under one pope and one Magisterium, **not many. No matter who was at fault, and there is plenty of fault to go around, it remains true that Christ founded one Church not many and that we should all be full members of her.

The bolded is an inserted qualification. Let’s look at John 17 in its context:

The High Priestly Prayer
*17 When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, 2 since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. 3 **And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. **4 I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

6 “I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. 7 Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you. 8 For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me. 9 I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. 10 **All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them. 11 And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one. 12 While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. 13 But now I am coming to you, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15 I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one.[a] 16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. 19 And for their sake I consecrate myself,[c] that they also may be sanctified[d] in truth.

**20 “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23 I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. ****24 Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father, even though the world does not know you, I know you, and these know that you have sent me. 26 I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them.”

I see no mention of either a Pope or a Magisterium in these words. I do see that followers of Jesus Christ are to love one another with the love that Jesus showed for all His people since before the world began.

I partake of the Sacraments of the Church Catholic not because I am somehow " worthy," or because I " made a good Confession," but because Jesus summons me to His table and He gives me the faith I need to know that He has forgiven me of my sins. Jesus feeds my faith day by day and week by week because of His own grace. That is something nobody can take away from me. Thanks be to God for His ineffable gift!*

 

[PJM]

We have the risen Christ in “touchdown” fashion, with a “glorified” cross of light behind him. The sense of those in the parish office is:
Christ is risen and we should not depict suffering that has already been conquered.
In my opinion, this is symptomatic of a comfortable culture that does not want to be disturbed from it’s slumber. But that’s just my opinion.

The sense of the people in the pews is one of commitment, and those who care would like to see the cross with the corpus. The corpus should remind us of the total commitment Christian faith asks for.
As a compromise the corpus is in the balcony where at least the priest can see it.

AGREED, Thanks for sharing.

Like Paul Said we TEACH “Christ Crucified” 1st Cor. 1:23:thumbsup:

There is noting wrong in reflecting on the Risen Christ that is what EASTER is all about and precisely why we ARE “An Easter People”; BUT we should always have in our minds tha price Christ payer for our sins. AMEN!

God Bless you

 

[PJM]

When I see a crucifix, I am reminded of how much Jesus loved mankind and the price He paid to redeem us. After all, He was the spotless lamb who was slain for the sins of the world and he voluntarily died a painful, gruesome death so that we might achieve salvation through Him.

When I see an empty cross, it is a symbol of Christ’s love but also a reminder that He conquered the grave. As someone else mentioned, perhaps an empty tomb with a large stone rolled away attached to it would be an even more fitting symbol of Jesus conquering the grave, but for whatever reason it never caught on in sculpture and art like the cross did.

The empty cross also serves as a reminder that I must take up my cross daily and follow Him and not *just *be grateful that He died for me.

I added the emphasis, to make the point that MIGHT does not means “does”

This is a very good post, thank you; but know my friend that in biblical terms; “Redemption” and “Salvation” do not mean the precisely same things.

Christ REDEEMED all of humanity {post Resurrection} for all time, BUT Christ is Savior on only those that know and DO His Divine Will. Amen

Thanks and God Bless you

 

[PJM]

Luther wasn’t interested in blaming the Church for some errant teachings and newer traditions that some of those who were her temporal leaders introduced as critical to the life of faith. He remained loyal to the Church to the day of his death. His teachings regarding faith had also been taught by luminaries such as St. Francis of Assisi and St. Augustine of Hippo. Pope Leo X, Johann von Eck and others who were interested in raising revenue for the construction of St. Peter’s Basilica in Rome sold indulgences for that purpose. Luther appealed to a General Church Council to address some of his ( and others’) concerns. That Council was delayed over and over again, during which time Luther was excommunicated ( and responded by excommunicating in his turn those who thought to cut him off from the Church:law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/luther/againstexecrablebull.html ) and the five solae were introduced; sola Scriptura, sola Fide, sola Gratiae, Solus Christus and Soli Deo Gloria. Scripture alone, from which Luther and his followers derived their doctrine and expanded that doctrine in their Confessions. Faith alone, through which we are brought to a knowledge of God’s saving work and the salvation won for us through Jesus Christ. Grace alone, God’s compassion and favor by which the Holy Spirit is delivered into the hearts of people. Christ alone, Who alone is the Author and Finisher of our faith and through Whom we enter into eternal life. To God alone be the glory. Only God is to be prayed to. Only God is to be looked to for help and salvation. No saints, not the blessed Mother, nobody’s " extra merits" can be applied to another by invocation or works.

Luther saw clerical abuses and appealed in good faith to a Council. He was derided as a " drunken German who will change his mind when he’s sober." Rich, coming from a Medici Pope who seems to have been famous for his own propensity for self- indulgence ( the papacy as a temporal kingdom, really?) britannica.com/biography/Leo-X. The Catalog of Testimonies declare that the Evangelical ministers ( " Lutherans," if you wish) taught no strange and new doctrines, but simply acted in continuity with the teachings of the apostles from the earliest age: bookofconcord.org/testimonies.php.

Of course, what is authoritative for us is meaningless to you, which is to be expected. In turn, those things that you believe vital to the life of the church might be regarded as just so much adiaphora ( nonessential teachings) by us. Catholics blame Lutherans for sundering the Church and our Confessions hold the Catholic Bishops accountable for the split. Frankly, we call* each other* heretics, but that’s meaningless in the face of our own communities as I pointed out above. It’s also irrelevant. Where two or more are gathered in Jesus’ name, there He is among them. I don’t recall reading that " there He is among them, as long as they share the same doctrine, have the same hierarchy, believe everything the higher- ups pass down to them." Also, elitist apostles tried to hinder somebody from outside their group from working wonders in Jesus’ name, but Jesus told them to butt out and leave the poor guy alone. The Gospel will spread, with or without the temporal " stamp of approval" of one church or other and the Holy Spirit’s not bound, neither is the Word of God, to the protestations of an institution.

So my friend, WHAT exactly is the basis, the justification if I may use that therm for the 5 SOLAS?

God Bless you

Patrick

 

[LutheranScholar]

So my friend, WHAT exactly is the basis, the justification if I may use that therm for the 5 SOLAS?

God Bless you

Patrick

The Five Solas

These five statements sum up what lies at the heart of Protestant belief:

By Grace alone (Sola Gratia)
Through Faith alone (Sola Fide)
In Christ alone (Solus Christus)
According to Scripture alone (Sola Scriptura)
For God’s Glory alone (Soli Deo Gloria)

1. Sola Gratia (Grace alone)]

Salvation is the free gift of God to man. It is given by God’s Grace alone and not through any merit on the part of the Christian.

GRACE = God’s Riches At Christ’s Expense.

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”
Ephesians 2:8-9 (KJV).

The importance of this doctrine in Protestant theology was underlined by Martin Luther, in his Commentary on the Epistle to the Galatians :

“If the Pope would concede that God alone by His grace through Christ justifies sinners, we would carry him in our arms, we would kiss his feet.”

2. Sola Fide (Faith alone)

We are judged righteous in the sight of God purely on the basis of our faith. The atoning sacrifice of Christ leads to righteousness being imputed to us as sinners through a legal declaration by God. This is often stated as Justification by faith alone. There is a clear distinction between Justification and Sanctification, the latter being the growth in holiness arising from the work of the Holy Spirit in the Christian.

FAITH = Forsaking All I Trust Him.

“But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for the just shall live by faith.”
Galatians 3:11 (KJV).

Commenting on Justification in his writings, Martin Luther argued that:

“This one and firm rock, which we call the doctrine of justification, is the chief article of the whole Christian doctrine, which comprehends the understanding of all godliness.”

3. Solus Christus (Christ alone)

Christ is the one Mediator between God and man and our salvation is accomplished only through His death and resurrection.

“For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;”
1 Timothy 2:5 (KJV).

In addition, every believer is a priest before God, with immediate access to him for the forgiveness of sins. This is known as the dcotrine of the Priesthood of all believers. It was classically articulated by Martin Luther, but Protestants point to 1 Peter 2:9 as evidence of support for the doctrine:

“But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.”
1 Peter 2:9 (KJV).

The doctrine is not unique to Protestantism, being also found in the Roman Catholic Church, for example, but Protestants insist that no other special form of Priesthood is necessary, as opposed to the Catholic view of a ministerial priesthood being required for the administration of the Sacraments and forgiveness of sins.

4. Sola Scriptura (Scripture alone)

Scripture alone is the only infallible source of divine revelation and the final authority for matters of faith and practice. Sola Scriptura does not mean that all truth is contained in the Bible (for example the Nicene Creed is widely accepted and recited within orthodox Christianity), but rather that all mankind needs to know for salvation is contained within its pages.

“All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.”
2 Timothy 3:16-17 (KJV).

“For concerning the divine and holy mysteries of the Faith, not even a casual statement must be delivered without the Holy Scriptures; nor must we be drawn aside by mere plausibility and artifices of speech. Even to me, who tell thee these things, give not absolute credence, unless thou receive the proof of the things which I announce from the Divine Scriptures. For this salvation which we believe depends not on ingenious reasoning, but on demonstration of the Holy Scriptures.”
Cyril of Jerusalem (Catechetical Lectures, 4:17)

Protestants typically argue that scripture is perspicuous or clear to all people regarding the essential truths of the Christian gospel of salvation. In contrast to the Roman Catholic view of a Magisterium (or teaching office) of the church, which is required to infallibly interpret scripture; Protestants argue that through the Holy Spirit, individuals can, by themselves interpret the scriptures responsibly.

5. Soli Deo Gloria (To the glory of God alone)

Every aspect of the Christian life is to be seen as giving glory to God. In essence, this summarises the other four Soli above. It also stemmed from the reformers opposition to what they perceived as the unwarranted glorification of the Popes and other clergy.

“If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion forever and ever. Amen.”
1 Peter 4:11 (KJV).

bible Wise words:
“We cannot but admit that not even the least thing takes place unless it is ordered by God… Indeed, nothing is too small in us or in any other creature, not to be ordered by the all-knowing and all-powerful providence of God. ”

Ulrich Zwingli (1484-1531)*

protestantism.co.uk/solas

 

[Della]

The bolded is an inserted qualification. Let’s look at John 17 in its context:

The High Priestly Prayer
*17 When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, 2 since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. 3 **And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. ***4 I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

6 “I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. 7 Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you. 8 For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me. 9 I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. 10 **All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them. 11 And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one. 12 While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. 13 But now I am coming to you, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15 I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one.[a] 16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. 19 And for their sake I consecrate myself,[c] that they also may be sanctified[d] in truth.

**20 “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23 I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. ****24 Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father, even though the world does not know you, I know you, and these know that you have sent me. 26 I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them.”

I see no mention of either a Pope or a Magisterium in these words. I do see that followers of Jesus Christ are to love one another with the love that Jesus showed for all His people since before the world began.

I partake of the Sacraments of the Church Catholic not because I am somehow " worthy," or because I " made a good Confession," but because Jesus summons me to His table and He gives me the faith I need to know that He has forgiven me of my sins. Jesus feeds my faith day by day and week by week because of His own grace. That is something nobody can take away from me. Thanks be to God for His ineffable gift!

Excuse me, you may quote any number of Scriptures, out of context I may add, but you are most decidedly not allowed to choose to partake of the sacraments of the Catholic Church without the dispensation of a Catholic bishop, and it has nothing to do with anyone’s worthiness. And I suspect you know that. You are not in full communion with the Catholic Church. That’s it, plain and simple.

You can claim anything you want about Lutheran history or ideologies–it makes no difference. Christ still founded his Church on Peter and the Apostles and their successors not on Luther or anyone else. And Luther definitely thought the Church wrong about several things. You seem to employ a very selected history to support your contentions. But the fact is, Christ’s Church is still one. The fullness of truth still subsists in the Catholic Church. You don’t have to agree with me about that. I’m not here to judge you. You are free to do whatever you like and believe whatever you wish. But the truth is still the truth. Christ didn’t found several churches. He only founded one. And Luther wasn’t there at the time, nor was he even a bishop. He usurped authority he had no right to. That’s the simple fact of the matter.

Now, we’ve taken the thread way off topic, although the OP seems fine with that. But, I have other things to do and I find no merit in repeating myself or going around in circles. All the best to you. :tiphat:

 

[LutheranScholar]

Excuse me, you may quote any number of Scriptures, out of context I may add, but you are most decidedly not allowed to choose to partake of the sacraments of the Catholic Church without the dispensation of a Catholic bishop, and it has nothing to do with anyone’s worthiness. And I suspect you know that. You are not in full communion with the Catholic Church. That’s it, plain and simple.

You can claim anything you want about Lutheran history or ideologies–it makes no difference. Christ still founded his Church on Peter and the Apostles and their successors not on Luther or anyone else. And Luther definitely thought the Church wrong about several things. You seem to employ a very selected history to support your contentions. But the fact is, Christ’s Church is still one. The fullness of truth still subsists in the Catholic Church. You don’t have to agree with me about that. I’m not here to judge you. You are free to do whatever you like and believe whatever you wish. But the truth is still the truth. Christ didn’t found several churches. He only founded one. And Luther wasn’t there at the time, nor was he even a bishop. He usurped authority he had no right to. That’s the simple fact of the matter.

Now, we’ve taken the thread way off topic, although the OP seems fine with that. But, I have other things to do and I find no merit in repeating myself or going around in circles. All the best to you. :tiphat:

Peace be with you also. :tiphat: May God bless you in your endeavors and increase your faith.