Why do Catholics need Mary to guide them to Jesus?

[TimothyH]

Devotion to Mary may be a choice but ignoring her is not.

Ours is a covenant family and a kingdom. No child should ignore his mother and no member of a kingdom should ignore his queen.

-Tim-

 

[friardchips]

Its the way God set things up.

If God had a more perfect or more beautiful plan then he would have given it to us. Mary is part of God’s plan.

-Tim-

Nice.

 

[pacloc]

It would help to learn about how Mary is the new Eve and Christ is the new Adam. Read the beginning of Luke carefully and notice that she shares in the blessings and coming pain of her Son. It is at her words that John the forerunner leaps in Elizabeth’s womb and she is filled with the Holy Spirit and blesses Mary above all women, including Eve and the holy women of the O.T. And Simeon told her that a sword would pierce her soul, causing the hearts of men to be revealed, just as Christ’s passion does. They share in the sacrifice of the Cross, His by the will and action of God, hers by following after Christ (picking up her Cross and following). Where Adam and Eve lusted after the fruit, grabbed it with their hands, ate of it, and were brought down lower to the earth by the tree from a place higher in Heaven, our Lord and blessed Mary practiced asceticism and only longed for God, had their hands and heart pierced, fasted from earthly food, and were raised up to heaven on a tree. They both practiced the new norm for Christians, virginity.

In God’s eyes all mankind is one body, whether we believe so or not. This is the only way scripture speaks of man, we are so linked that it is only because of this link that Christ means anything to any of us. Without realizing that we are only divinized because God has entered into humanity thus bringing divinity to humanity, you would be missing the whole point of the incarnation. God chose Mary by foreknowledge to be the holy vessel of whom he would receive flesh and share our weak nature, to bring it into glory with His nature. What He is by nature, we have become by adoption. Just as what we are by nature, he became by incarnation. The human and divine are now forever together. All through Mary.

 

[Kenny_Kamel]

An excellent explanation I found from Emmett O’Regan:

St. Louis de Montfort gives a detailed explaination of the importance of the Marian apparitions at the end-time. I’ll quote some of the relevant material below:

"“If …as is certain, the knowledge and the kingdom of Jesus Christ must come into the world, it can only be as a necessary consequence of the knowledge and reign of Mary. She who first gave him to the world will establish his kingdom in the world…
The salvation of the world began through Mary and through her it must be accomplished. Mary scarcely appeared in the first coming of Jesus Christ so that men, as yet insufficiently instructed and enlightened concerning the person of her Son, might not wander from the truth by becoming too strongly attached to her…
But in the second coming of Jesus Christ, Mary must be known and openly revealed by the Holy Spirit so that Jesus may be known, loved and served through her. The reasons which moved the Holy Spirit to hide his spouse during her life and to reveal but very little of her since the first preaching of the gospel exist no longer…
In these latter times Mary must shine forth more than ever in mercy, power and grace; in mercy, to bring back and welcome lovingly the poor sinners and wanderers who are to be converted and return to the Catholic Church; in power, to combat the enemies of God who will rise up menacingly to seduce and crush by promises and threats all those who oppose them; finally, she must shine forth in grace to inspire and support the valiant soldiers and loyal servants of Jesus Christ who are fighting for his cause.”

See the earlier post below, which contains links to the original material:

unveilingtheapocalypse.blogspot.co.uk/2011/08/woman-adorned-with-sun.html

Mary is coming to us now to prepare us for the return of her Son, just as she did during the first Advent. Jesus has not appeared in a mass apparition since the ascension. He has only appeared in visions during private revelations - and other occassions such as to St. Paul on the road to Damascus. He will not appear visio sensibilis until His appearance at the Second Coming, when he will bring judgement to the world.

Link to original post: unveilingtheapocalypse.blogspot.com/2012/08/our-lady-of-mt-carmel-visions-of-fatima.html?m=1

 

[Brandon_Cal]

Alternatively, maybe they do understand it, but they do not understand why Mary is venerated simply for being close to God, giving birth to him, raising him, nursing him. It’s like an argument that I had with my Dad once. I argued that Franklin Delano Roosevelt deserved more credit than Richard Nixon for having more accomplishments in his life and for triggering some events in history that led to Richard Nixon’s actions. My Dad counter-argued by asking me about George Washington and his mother, and which was more important. I said George Washington, not his mother. Then, he remarked why I didn’t select his mother, even though she gave birth to him. Hence giving birth to George Washington’s actions. I thought about it and felt that he had a point.

That said, why should Mary, Jesus’s mother, be venerated, when Jesus accomplished far more greater things than her? On a related note, should George Washington’s own mother be honored for giving birth to her son?

With all due respect, you’ve committed a huge sleight of hand here, which I believe is lending to your confusion.

In this post you start by asking why Mary is venerated at all, then provide analogies to historical figures and their predecessors (and ancestors) and ask who is more important. These are fundamentally two very different questions, unless what you really intend to ask is “Why is Mary more important, or given more credit, than Jesus Christ?” If you’re actually asking this, then your position is even worse than a sleight of hand, it’s a (likely unintentional) Straw-man of Catholic doctrine.

Mary is not more important. She is not given more credit. But neither of those mean she isn’t at all important, or that she deserves no credit, just as in the analogies you provided, FDR and Mary Ball Washington are not entirely unimportant nor do they deserve zero credit for what those who came after them accomplished.

 

[HJ3822]

It would help to learn about how Mary is the new Eve and Christ is the new Adam. Read the beginning of Luke carefully and notice that she shares in the blessings and coming pain of her Son. It is at her words that John the forerunner leaps in Elizabeth’s womb and she is filled with the Holy Spirit and blesses Mary above all women, including Eve and the holy women of the O.T. And Simeon told her that a sword would pierce her soul, causing the hearts of men to be revealed, just as Christ’s passion does. They share in the sacrifice of the Cross, His by the will and action of God, hers by following after Christ (picking up her Cross and following). Where Adam and Eve lusted after the fruit, grabbed it with their hands, ate of it, and were brought down lower to the earth by the tree from a place higher in Heaven, our Lord and blessed Mary practiced asceticism and only longed for God, had their hands and heart pierced, fasted from earthly food, and were raised up to heaven on a tree. They both practiced the new norm for Christians, virginity.

DK Publishing’s The Illustrated Bible Story by Story mentioned Mary as being the Second Eve and Jesus as being the Second Adam in the part, I believe, about the Fall. DK Publishing is really a secular publishing house, but because it consults several Christian theologians, the book puts a generic Christian spin on everything. It mentions that its target audience is for everyone, but I can easily see through its hidden evangelistic motive.

Plus, the book talks about the two birth narratives - the births of Jesus and John the Baptist - as if the births happened at roughly the same time.

Is “virginity” used in this sense to mean asceticism?

 

[HJ3822]

Dr. Feingold has tons of free lectures available on the internet, including a whole series on Mary.

Spend a couple of weeks listening to these lectures, and I assure you that you will have a far, far better understanding of Mariology that the vast majority of Catholics do. It’s almost like an under-graduate course on the subject, so please, do yourself a favor and get a good education in this.

I never knew that mariology is a complex, extensive branch in Catholic theology. Wow, some people genuinely are serious about Mary. Anybody willing to spend his or her entire life on an academic subject, such as the study of Virgin Mary, must be extremely serious about the pursuit, because, you know, he or she is putting his or her life on the line.

 

[Reuben_J]

In that case, the Protestant Reformation may be One Big Misunderstanding, because Protestants do believe in “glory to God alone”, which excludes the veneration of the saints, including Mary. Martin Luther, though, was raised Catholic and had been a Catholic monk, presumably venerating Mary. So, he and his Lutheran followers had a special regard for Mary, but he still rejected the Hail Mary and replaced it with his own rosary. The Lutheran rosary is very similar to the Catholic version, but minus the Hail Marys.

Anyway, you are telling me that the veneration of Mary is really a recognition of Mary, mother of Jesus, as a mother of God and as a faithful disciple of God. Since Mary fills an unique space as both mother and disciple, she deserves greater veneration than the other saints. Other saints, including the apostles, may have been faithful disciples and holy people, but they are not related by blood very closely to Jesus.

Well said. We need to remember that Jesus was a pious Jew and certainly devoted to and honoured his parents. His mum was with him till he died. Jesus was a filial and obedient son as demonstrated in the miracle of Cana which he performed even though it was not yet his time.

There is no reason to think that this relationship would change in heaven. A mother is always a mother otherwise it goes against the fabric of Christian teaching for Jesus not to honour her as his mother .

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I never knew that mariology is a complex, extensive branch in Catholic theology. Wow, some people genuinely are serious about Mary. Anybody willing to spend his or her entire life on an academic subject, such as the study of Virgin Mary, must be extremely serious about the pursuit, because, you know, he or she is putting his or her life on the line.

How so?

And what do you mean by 'spending his or her life on an ‘academic subject’?

Do you feel that people who study an academic study like, say, iconography, or the European Renaissance, or archeology, or botany, or mathematics, ‘spend their whole life’ on those subjects? Are they putting their ‘lives on the line’ by doing so?

 

[jmcrae]

Is “virginity” used in this sense to mean asceticism?

Virginity is one aspect of asceticism. People who practice asceticism refrain from sex, certain kinds of food, and live very simply, off the land. The original Christian ascetics were the Desert Fathers who did, in fact, live in the desert, and ate only the simplest food - bugs, plants, and that sort of thing.

The Tradition seems to indicate that Mary and Joseph were practicing asceticism, so that although they were married, they were not expected to have sex, which is why it was such a shock to the community when Mary was found to be with child - and why Joseph sought to divorce her when he found out. He was completely sure that the child wasn’t his.

 

[Reuben_J]

The Tradition seems to indicate that Mary and Joseph were practicing asceticism, so that although they were married, they were not expected to have sex, which is why it was such a shock to the community when Mary was found to be with child - and why Joseph sought to divorce her when he found out. He was completely sure that the child wasn’t his.

Wasn’t that betrothed to be married?

 

[jmcrae]

Wasn’t that betrothed to be married?

Yes, they were. Thanks!

Even so - point being, even after they did get married, they were not going to have sex. They had both made vows of virginity, according to some of the Early Fathers (disciples of the first Apostles).

 

[Reuben_J]

Yes, they were. Thanks!

Even so - point being, even after they did get married, they were not going to have sex. They had both made vows of virginity, according to some of the Early Fathers (disciples of the first Apostles).

Okay.

 

[HJ3822]

How so?

And what do you mean by 'spending his or her life on an ‘academic subject’?

Do you feel that people who study an academic study like, say, iconography, or the European Renaissance, or archeology, or botany, or mathematics, ‘spend their whole life’ on those subjects? Are they putting their ‘lives on the line’ by doing so?

Well, I meant to say that I am impressed that theology is treated very seriously. On the other hand, I don’t think I should find that surprising since it is very important to learn from people in history. Human nature hasn’t really changed all that much, it seems. So, the Bible is still relevant today.

Virginity is one aspect of asceticism. People who practice asceticism refrain from sex, certain kinds of food, and live very simply, off the land. The original Christian ascetics were the Desert Fathers who did, in fact, live in the desert, and ate only the simplest food - bugs, plants, and that sort of thing.

The Tradition seems to indicate that Mary and Joseph were practicing asceticism, so that although they were married, they were not expected to have sex, which is why it was such a shock to the community when Mary was found to be with child - and why Joseph sought to divorce her when he found out. He was completely sure that the child wasn’t his.

Can you direct me to the source that holds this “Tradition”? This reminds me of how the Jews talk about the Midrash, a series of homiletic stories intended to promote understanding of Scripture. In Catholicism, is Tradition a type of written document or form of oral interpretation passed by the priests with every generation?

 

[fisherman_carl]

For me Mary is an important part of the family and an important intercessor in the church. Do you really need both a mother and a father? Sure, you could get by with just a father. But, you would be missing something with out your mother. It is better to have both a mother and a father. Similarly, one could get by with Jesus alone. But something is missing without the Body of Christ, of which we are all members of, and all have our unique role to play in it. As St Paul says every member is affected by what happens to any member of the Body. How could Paul be right about this unless we are all somehow spiritually connected through Christ? It has to more than just solidarity, but a real spiritual connection that makes us one body.

Mary plays an important role in this Body. Early Christians like Irenaeus and Justin Martyr saw Mary as a type of Eve, reversing the role of the first Eve who disobeyed, by obeying God allowing Jesus to be the source of salvation. This can be seen as God’s plan to not just redeem the mistake of Adam but also Eve, and to redound the dignity of women which had been lost. Thus, Mary’s role is like a second Eve. Because of her obedience salvation was born.

 

[Cathoholic]

HJ3822. You mentioned,

I never knew that mariology is a complex, extensive branch in Catholic theology. Wow, some people genuinely are serious about Mary. Anybody willing to spend his or her entire life on an academic subject, such as the study of Virgin Mary, must be extremely serious about the pursuit, because, you know, he or she is putting his or her life on the line.

Do you think we can come to a better understanding of Jesus, by us having a better understanding of who the Blessed Virgin Mary is, and Mary’s role in salvation history?

Could we also come to a better understanding of the Church from knowing about the Blessed Virgin Mary?

---

I asked:

Why do Catholic Christians or Non-Catholic Christians for that matter, need Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John to guide them to Jesus? Why is Paul necessary? Why does Jesus need Jude? . . .

You said in reply . . . .

Well, whoever lives in the first century has to be dead by now, so I presume you mean the gospels according to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, and those gospels are traditionally assumed to be written by the apostles themselves, but doubts about the authorship of the gospels exist. . . .

OK.

But are they (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, etc.) “necessary” the way God set up things?

Would YOU know about (and trust) a saving relationship with Jesus Christ, if Jesus did not use Matthew, Mark, Luke, etc.the way He did?

If “no”, you are asserting some sort of affirmation of God’s plan to include others by His design.

If “yes”, explain how YOU would have this relationship and knowledge apart from Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, etc.

---

You also mentioned:

In that case, the Protestant Reformation may be One Big Misunderstanding, because Protestants do believe in “glory to God alone”, which excludes the veneration of the saints

I’ll try to get to that point later in the discussion too, because I think it is important.

 

[multitude]

Being indifferent to Mary is such a massive sign of heresy. When you go visit or stay or go live at somebody’s house, and his mother answers the door… unless the guy has been led astray by bad influences and hates his own mother, you don’t ignore her. Unless you plan on getting kicked out of his house.

Those who are indifferent to Mary, I believe, will be among those who Jesus will say, “no I never knew you. Not everyone who says Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom”.

 

[ericc]

Being indifferent to Mary is such a massive sign of heresy. When you go visit or stay or go live at somebody’s house, and his mother answers the door… unless the guy has been led astray by bad influences and hates his own mother, you don’t ignore her. Unless you plan on getting kicked out of his house.

Those who are indifferent to Mary, I believe, will be among those who Jesus will say, “no I never knew you. Not everyone who says Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom”.

I want to add this: You want to be part of someone’s family, it is really bad manners to ignore their parents. We being adopted children, wanting to be part of Jesus household, and we are grafted branches after all, should be prudent enough not to ignore his natural mum.

 

[friardchips]

I want to add this: You want to be part of someone’s family, it is really bad manners to ignore their parents. We being adopted children, wanting to be part of Jesus household, and we are grafted branches after all, should be prudent enough not to ignore his natural mum.

Our Lady is His Mother, and ours by adoption, so ignoring, is not an option. And partly because it is not loving to ignore her. We don’t ignore, if we want to become Beloved Disciples.

 

[friardchips]

Being indifferent to Mary is such a massive sign of heresy. When you go visit or stay or go live at somebody’s house, and his mother answers the door… unless the guy has been led astray by bad influences and hates his own mother, you don’t ignore her. Unless you plan on getting kicked out of his house.

Those who are indifferent to Mary, I believe, will be among those who Jesus will say, “no I never knew you. Not everyone who says Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom”.

Yes, but we have to approach out of love. And so live and preach, with love.

I think you have a point though. Especially because, whenever times seem to be moving deeper into secularism / atheism, this always coincides with so-called Catholics and Christians ignoring Our Lady, which further suggests, that where there is opposition to Our Lady, there the devil is, and furthermore, all who wish to draw close to the Saviour of mankind will need to do so through the loving Immaculate Heart of Our Lady.

I don’t think the invitation from the Cross for us to take Our Lady into our hearts was in fact an offer. I happen to think that it was more of a command to love, for those who wish to draw close to Him; therefore, even the word ‘devotion’ could be considered a little tame.