Why do Catholics pray to Saints........

[Disciple4Christ]

Simple search on this site gives you the full answer follow the link ===>

catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp

“Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ”

 

[wmscott]

We believe first of all that the gospel can be preached in the spirit world; and the spirits of the dead can repent and accept it if they choose to, or not. Temple baptism for the dead is a sacrament performed by the priesthood, and by the same power in the spirit world it can be communicated to them. It is not the same thing as praying to the dead.

And this is where I think you are limiting your perceptions and understanding of Catholic beliefs as to the state of our souls when we die. Yes, our physical body is dead, but as you stated in Heaven (spirit world) there is consciousness, understanding, and communication.

Our physical bodies have been shed and we are now alive in Christ, we are a part of Christ, and as you have pointed out to me in the past, we share in His Devine nature. Look at John 15:4-7

• 4 Remain in me, as I remain in you. Just as a branch cannot bear fruit on its own
  unless it remains on the vine, so neither can you unless you remain in me.
  5 I am the vine, you are the branches. Whoever remains in me and I in him will bear
  much fruit, because without me you can do nothing.
  6 Anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither;
  people will gather them and throw them into a fire and they will be burned.
  7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask for whatever you want and it
  will be done for you.* NAB

With this in mind, and as you have already said, things can be communicated to them. Therefore, there is an awareness of what is going on and what prayers are being offered up. Then why would a Saint who is a part of the vine not want to pray for us if we asked.

OK, so two Biblical references describing the Saints and Angels praying for us. Rev 5:7-8 & Rev. 8:3-4.

Excerpts from the Haydocks Catholic Bible Commentary.

Ver. 7-8. He…took the book,[3]…and when he had opened it, or was about to open it, (in the Greek is only, he took it: which was a sign that he would open it)…the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, to adore him, as appears by what follows, ver. 13. — Having every one of them harps to celebrate his praise, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of the saints: which shews that the saints in heaven offer up before the throne of the Divine Majesty the prayers of the faithful.

Ver. 3. Stood before the altar, having a golden censer. In the visions is an allusion to the tabernacle and its parts. The altar of perfumes was in the sanctum[the holy place], hard by the entrance into the sanctum sanctorum[the holy of holies], and here the golden altar is said to be before the throne of God. The incense from the censer is said to be the prayers of all the Saints, which the Angel offered up. The altar seems to signify our Saviour Christ, as the prayers of all the faithful are always made through the merits of Christ, our only chief Mediator or Redeemer.

I personally will ask all that hear and know me to pray for me to the Lord our God, this is intercessory prays from those around me. I personally will pray to God, asking the Blessed Mother or Saints to pray for me also, this is intercessory prays from those Christians in heaven who are more righteous, since they have been made perfect to stand in God’s presence (Heb. 12:22-23), than anyone on earth, meaning their prayers would be even more efficacious.

I understand that this may be difficult for you to understand, that is OK. There are things I don’t understand, but I do accept on Faith. You do not have to believe as we do or accept the truths that the Catholic Church teaches, this is your right. However, the truths of the Catholic Church are based in Sacred Scriptures either through the sacred texts themselves, or through Sacred Traditions, which is Biblical, and faithfully guarded and taught by the Church’s teaching authority. Peace.

 

[wmscott]

I think we need to remember that in Catholicism, not everything needs to be in the Bible for it to be true, so we shouldn’t try to force things in there. Saying that Rev 5:8 is scriptural evidence of prayer to saints is pushing it a little. Rev 5:8 shows that the angels/saints are aware of our prayers and are offering them to God, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that they were prayed to/with in the first place. I forgot which verse, but someone mentioned a verse in Tobit where Tobit and Sarah prayed to God, and Raphael interceded by taking their prayers to God. It wasn’t that they asked Raphael for his prayers in the first place.

So, like I said in my post to zerinus, there simply is no verse in the Bible that says “you should pray to Heavenly saints”, or shows an example of someone asking for the prayer of Heavenly saints. But that’s okay in Catholicism.

I also think we should consider Rebecca J’s post that had references to the Psalms, which perhaps is a more explicit example than others of addressing Heavenly entities besides God.

With this in mind then zerinus should understand, after all not all of LDS theology is from the Bible is it. Peace.

 

[zerinus]

With this in mind then zerinus should understand, after all not all of LDS theology is from the Bible is it. Peace.

All LDS theology is not from the Bible; but we think it is not contradicted by the Bible either.

 

[RebeccaJ]

for Catdan:

Luke 16
22 When the poor man died, he was carried away by angels to the bosom of Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and from the netherworld, where he was in torment, he raised his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24 And he cried out, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me. Send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am suffering torment in these flames.’ 25 Abraham replied, ‘My child, remember that you received what was good during your lifetime while Lazarus likewise received what was bad; but now he is comforted here, whereas you are tormented. 26 Moreover, between us and you a great chasm is established to prevent anyone from crossing who might wish to go from our side to yours or from your side to ours.’ 27 He said, ‘Then I beg you, father, send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they too come to this place of torment.’

Philipians 1
21 For to me life is Christ, and death is gain. 22 If I go on living in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. And I do not know which I shall choose. 23 I am caught between the two. I long to depart this life and be with Christ, (for) that is far better.

 

[rinnie]

All LDS theology is not from the Bible; but we think it is not contradicted by the Bible either.

Sure it does. Like the scripture John 10:30 I and the Father are one. I know you guys have a problem with that one.

But this is not about our how what JS taught goes against scripture!

 

[wmscott]

All LDS theology is not from the Bible; but we think it is not contradicted by the Bible either.

Thank You,

You have just illustrated your LDS beliefs and rational using a Catholic perspective. Catholic faith and beliefs are rooted in Sacred Scripture and do not contradict it either. Peace.

 

[rinnie]

Right, but there is no explicit example in scripture of someone asking a Heavenly saint to pray for them. The closest one gets are the Psalms excerpts posted by Rebecca J.

But there are many many examples of how the saints can support our own weaknesses. Jesus regulary supplied one persons faith for anothers.

Matt 8:13 15:28 17:15-18

Mark 9:17-29
Luke 8:49-55

Anyother perfect example of how prayers of the Saints can help us.

Paul himself asks Christians to pray for him. and he would indeed pray for them. Christians indeed here and in heaven. That in itself would be a perfect example of the Paul asking the Saints to pray for him

 

[rinnie]

Thank You,

You have just illustrated your LDS beliefs and rational using a Catholic perspective. Catholic faith and beliefs are rooted in Sacred Scripture and do not contradict it either. Peace.

Good one!

 

[zerinus]

Thank You,

You have just illustrated your LDS beliefs and rational using a Catholic perspective. Catholic faith and beliefs are rooted in Sacred Scripture and do not contradict it either. Peace.

I think that praying to the saints does contradict the scriptures. See my post #96.

 

[rinnie]

I think that praying to the saints does contradict the scriptures. See my post #96.

Sorry scripture in heaven proves that the saints in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. As I have showed Rev. 5:8

I think that what by what you are saying is in total conflict with the teachings of St.John. We are told expliciitly by St John that the incense they offer to God is the prayers of the Saints.

THe intercession of fellow Christians which is what the Saints in heaven are clearly do not interfere with Christs unique mediatorship because in the 4 verses immediately preceeding 1 Tim 2:5 St Paul says that Christians should intercede.

If you say that we can not ask the Saints in heaven to pray for us then you also have to agree that we cannot have others in this world to pray for us either.

You cannot have it both ways. Either we intercede for eachother or we do not. If you are going to your go directly to your Jesus only theory then you must reject prayer for eachother and interesssion all together.

So either 1 Tim 2:1-4 is correct and Paul strongly prays for Christians to intercede for eachother or he doesn’t.

You must either say we cannot pray for eachother all together here on earth and in heaven or we can. Because what would be the difference if we are doing it here or in heaven. You cannot have it both ways.

 

[aspirant]

Playing devil’s advocate here: Did Tobit and Sarah pray to/with Raphael?

If you look at the post where I quoted Tobit, you will find that I compared it favorably to the verses in Revelation, which say that persons in heaven (angelic and human) offer our prayers to God, not that I claimed the prayers were made to/with Raphael.

I consider prayer to be an act of worship.

From post #22:

[If you read the King James Version of the Bible] you will already know something that many modern English speakers have forgotten: the word “pray” is just an archaic word for “ask, request.” In the Jacobean English of your Bible translation, any request to anyone is a “prayer.” For example:

Genesis 13:8 “And Abram said unto Lot, Let there be no strife, I pray thee, between me and thee, and between my herdmen and thy herdmen; for we be brethren.”

Genesis 24:2 “And Abraham said unto his eldest servant of his house, that ruled over all that he had, Put, I pray thee, thy hand under my thigh…”

Genesis 24:17 “And the servant ran to meet her, and said, Let me, I pray thee, drink a little water of thy pitcher.”

And so on.

This is the sense in which we say “prayer to the saints.” It means we’re asking them for something, namely their prayers to God for us.

When you ask a living person to do something for you or to pray for you, you are talking to someone… whom you know can hear you and answer you back.

This is exactly what we say regarding the saints who have preceded us: they are living, they can hear us, and they can respond.

we address our petitions directly to Him, not to some intermediate “Saint”.

The Apostles did not forbid asking other humans to pray for us. Indeed, they requested the prayers of others for themselves:

“I appeal to you, brothers, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to strive together with me in your prayers to God on my behalf…”

“Brothers, pray for us.”

“brothers, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may speed ahead and be honored…”

“Pray for us, for we are sure that we have a clear conscience, desiring to act honorably in all things.”

The Apostle Paul explicitly teaches that intercessory prayer is “good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”

If you want to ask a Saint to pray for you, you ask him when he is still alive, not when he is dead!

Though saints have died, no saint is dead. All saints are alive. As Jesus taught: “Moses… calls the Lord the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob. Now he is not God of the dead, but of the living, for all live to him.”

I like what Ecclesiastes says about the dead.

Ecclesiastes is wonderful, but Qoheleth had not received the fullness of revelation, and was still ignorant of many things. We who have received the fullness cannot trade it for the partial.

Once a person is dead, he is gone

Saints who have died are very much alive in Christ, still fellow members of the Body of Christ, whom we may never say we do not need: “For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body— Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit. For the body does not consist of one member but of many… The eye cannot say to the hand, ‘I have no need of you,’ nor again the head to the feet, ‘I have no need of you.’ …God has so composed the body… that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together. Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.”

Saints who have passed through death are very much present to us, and we to them: “we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses.”

We address our prayers to God alone

Any request you make to anyone, ever, is a prayer.

But all of your objections have already been answered with biblical principles.

I’m Sorry but the state of the dead (saints) are quite clear in the bible.

The Bible teaches that all saints are alive and joined together in the living Body of Christ.

The concept of an undying, immortal soul goes against the Bible

On the contrary, the Bible teaches: “God formed man to be imperishable; the image of his own nature he made him… the souls of the just are in the hand of God, and no torment shall touch them. They seemed, in the view of the foolish, to be dead; and their passing away was thought an affliction and their going forth from us, utter destruction. But they are in peace. For if before men, indeed, they be punished, yet is their hope full of immortality.”

I am not saying that the dead nave no consciousness, or even that they can’t be aware of our condition. They may or may not be.

According to the scriptures previously cited, in this post, in the linked article, and elsewhere, they are. This thoroughly biblical teaching is confirmed by the consistent teaching of the Church throughout the centuries.

 

[choy]

By the dead I meant people who have passed on to the next life, with whom we cannot have direct communication, as we can do with the living.

again, by being alive in heaven, they can hear us

thsoe who passed away and are not in heaven cannot, until they reach heaven

 

[Catholic_to_LDS]

UMMMMM… I think my question is answered. I am not sure why everyone is bashing each other. I have done alot of studing on the rosary…Now I get it:thumbsup: I still believe that prayer is a beautiful thing. The best is when it comes from our heart and we are open to the answers.

I now understand how the Catholics view praying to saint. It gives them such great comfort and reassurence. That is the way I feel whem I am in the temple. There is a comfort that I reciever while there, that i can not feel else where. I guess that’s what a Catholic feels when they visit a holy site.

I think that my questions on prayer and the rosary are now answered. I have questions on related issues, but feel at this time to start a new thread.

Pray together, think kindly on each other, learn from each other…with God in our lives we can begin to understand each others beliefs. I look forward to learning more from you all. But for now, I have pressing issues at home. I would ask all of you to pray for me and my family. I have been diagnosed with a desiese that will one day rob me of movement…I can no longer kneel at prayer. Maybe asking a Saint that went through is would bring comfort, as would going to the temple.

I will post as soon as I can. But, I am not against prayer in any form that glorifies God.

 

[Catdan]

aspirant,

The whole idea that when you die and then go to heaven and then when the time comes for the 2nd coming that you have to return to your grave just to be taken back to heaven, just doesn’t make any sense at all. It quite clearly states in the bible the “dead no nothing”.

 

[zerinus]

I would ask all of you to pray for me and my family. I have been diagnosed with a desiese that will one day rob me of movement…I can no longer kneel at prayer. Maybe asking a Saint that went through is would bring comfort, as would going to the temple.

Thanks for sharing that with us. You will be in our prayers. Remember that God is a God of miracles (2 Nephi 27:23; Mormon 9:10-11), and “all things are possible to him that believeth” (Mark 9:23).

 

[Young_Thinker]

If to no other saint, I believe that one should have a personal relationship(ie. through prayer) with The Holy Mother. She has, of course, has a relationship with Christ like none other, and, especially after having accepted the Immaculate Conception and Assumption, I have found that there is something mystical and wonderful about her. She is, indeed, Our Beautiful Lady and, in my opinion, the greatest woman to have ever lived. As for myself, I have also recently prayed from time to time to St. Francis of Assisi for my pets because he is their patron saint(essentially, a guardian angel with a “human” touch). That does not mean that one should not also pray to God Himself every day. Other than Roman Catholics, Anglo-Catholics and High Lutherans usually appreciate saints in particular as well.

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

UMMMMM… I think my question is answered. I am not sure why everyone is bashing each other. I have done alot of studing on the rosary…Now I get it:thumbsup: I still believe that prayer is a beautiful thing. The best is when it comes from our heart and we are open to the answers.

I now understand how the Catholics view praying to saint. It gives them such great comfort and reassurence. That is the way I feel whem I am in the temple. There is a comfort that I reciever while there, that i can not feel else where. I guess that’s what a Catholic feels when they visit a holy site.

I think that my questions on prayer and the rosary are now answered. I have questions on related issues, but feel at this time to start a new thread.

Pray together, think kindly on each other, learn from each other…with God in our lives we can begin to understand each others beliefs. I look forward to learning more from you all. But for now, I have pressing issues at home. I w[SIGN]ould ask all of you to pray for me and my family. I[/SIGN] have been diagnosed with a desiese that will one day rob me of movement…I can no longer kneel at prayer. Maybe asking a Saint that went through is would bring comfort, as would going to the temple.

I will post as soon as I can. But, I am not against prayer in any form that glorifies God.

Got your back. Would be honored to pray for you and your family and would only ask the same in return

We can never get enough prayers or enough of Gods grace no matter who we are. May Gods peace be with you my brother and may he shine his grace upon you.

 

[KathleenGee]

The Bible is not some book on the shelf that anybody can pick up and use. You have to take it into perspective and certain passages do not stand alone either.

The Bible is the Living Word of God to bring us life…those not open to the revelation of God found in Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit do not know anything…the living…in the context of God is Life…God is Love…

Our God is not the God of chaos…but of order…Catholicism is akin to Judaism as we are a gathering of people centering on God. The Jewish and Catholic calendars are circular centered on God…there is a song at church, ‘Jesus, You are the Center of our Life’…

The Living Tradition of the Church is the truthful interpretation of Scripture…not in parts and pieces but of the entire Bible, all interconnected, that can be applied to the Whole Church, meaning every person. Taking parts and pieces out of the bible and makinga new church out of it is a man made church and only brings further fragmentation and division— and enmnity among Christians…it is all part of the Great Apostasy that is impacting all forms of Christianity.

The sects that came out of the Stone Campbell movement are unique in that their entire premise is that the Catholic church is the whore of babylon…that is name calling, it is reactionary, and you take away the Catholic Church, then they have nothing to justify themselves…no history since they rejected it…so I tend not to talk to them too much as their base is bigotry, self-righteous, scruples, and ignorance.

 

[Bob4BVM]

If the dead saints are aware of our condition, and want to pray for us, I suppose they can. If we wanted to pray for them, or for our own dead, I don’t see a problem with that either. But praying directly to them is problematic

Why? - You never asked another Human for Help? - it is commanded in the Bible

James 5:16
Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.

Who is more just than a Saint in Heaven?

Well said Cusader !!!

All these people talking as if they KNOW what is the state of persons who have died here on earth. What authorities, those who say that the soul itself is nothing.

I almost have to laugh, if they really KNEW how very much alive those persons are…God created us to last for all eternity, with Him.

I almost get the feeling some of the people talking here are Jehovahs Witnesses, because they seem so misinformed about the human soul… Jesus was pretty clear on it when he warned us to beware of the one who can kill both the body AND the Soul…