Why do Catholics say "trespasses" instead of "debts" in the Lord's prayer

[MattofTexas]

A little background:
I come from a Protestant faith tradition (the Disciples of Christ) and am considering converting to Catholicism. One thing I’ve noticed is that when Catholics say the Lord’s Prayer or Our Father you say “trespasses” whereas I learned it with “debts”. I know this is 1. unimportant, and 2. not universally the same across Protestantism either- but I would like to know why the English liturgy of the Our Father uses those words, especially in light of the Latin:

PATER NOSTER, qui es in caelis, sanctificetur nomen tuum. Adveniat regnum tuum. Fiat voluntas tua, sicut in caelo et in terra. Panem nostrum quotidianum da nobis hodie, et dimitte nobis debita nostra sicut et nos dimittimus debitoribus nostris. Et ne nos inducas in tentationem, sed libera nos a malo. Amen.

Are these not the very words from which “debt” and “debtors” are derived from? So why use one version in Latin and another in English?

 

[SMHW]

A little background:
I come from a Protestant faith tradition (the Disciples of Christ) and am considering converting to Catholicism. One thing I’ve noticed is that when Catholics say the Lord’s Prayer or Our Father you say “trespasses” whereas I learned it with “debts”. I know this is 1. unimportant, and 2. not universally the same across Protestantism either- but I would like to know why the English liturgy of the Our Father uses those words, especially in light of the Latin:

Are these not the very words from which “debt” and “debtors” are derived from? So why use one version in Latin and another in English?

I don’t know this as a fact but I’m guessing that Catholics borrowed from the Anglican Book of Common Prayer which (as I understand it) uses “trespasses”.

English speaking Catholics have used English for devotional prayer long before the Mass was said in the common tongue. English speaking Catholics (which would include the Irish) would have been most familiar with the Anglican translations. The Church chose not to buck “tradition”.

 

[benjohnson]

As I understand it, in English (but not in Latin) “debts” implies that your can repay your sins with “credits.”

It seems “tresspasses” rightly implies that that only our Savior can take away our sins, that no matter how many “credits” we may offer, only God can remove our sin.

 

[Digitonomy]

A better answer would address the use of English translations, whether from KJV, or Douay-Rheims, or other sources. I’ll let someone else track that down, but here is what Wikipedia says about the divergence in Greek:

After the request for bread, Matthew and Luke diverge slightly. Matthew continues with a request for debts to be forgiven in the same manner as people forgive those who have debts against them. Luke, on the other hand, makes a similar request about sins being forgiven in the manner of debts being forgiven between people. The word “debts” (ὀφειλήματα) does not necessarily mean financial obligations, as shown by the use of the verbal form of the same word (ὀφείλετε) in passages such as Romans 13:8. In Aramaic the word for debt is also used to mean sin. This difference between Luke’s and Matthew’s wording could be explained by the original form of the prayer having been in Aramaic. The generally accepted interpretation is thus that the request is for forgiveness of sin, not of supposed loans granted by God.[27] Asking for forgiveness from God was a staple of Jewish prayers.[citation needed] It was also considered proper for individuals to be forgiving of others, so the sentiment expressed in the prayer would have been a common one of the time.[citation needed]

Anthony C. Deane, Canon of Worcester Cathedral, suggested that the choice of the word “ὀφειλήματα” (debts), rather than “ἁμαρτίας” (sins), indicated a reference to failures to use opportunities of doing good. He linked this with the parable of the sheep and the goats (also in Matthew’s Gospel), in which the grounds for condemnation are not wrongdoing in the ordinary sense but failure to do right, missing opportunities for showing love to others (Matthew 25:31–46).[28]

“As we forgive…”. Divergence between Matthew’s “debts” and Luke’s “trespasses” is relatively trivial compared to the impact of the second half of this statement. The verses immediately following the Lord’s Prayer, Matthew 6:14–15, show Jesus teaching that the forgiveness of our sin/debt (by God) is contingent on how we forgive others. Later, Matthew elaborates with Jesus’ parable of the unforgiving servant (Matthew 18:23–35). In this parable, forgiveness from the king (God) is conditional on the servant’s forgiveness of a small debt owed to him.
Source

 

[ProVobis]

Are these not the very words from which “debt” and “debtors” are derived from?

The answer to your question is yes. “Sanctifiied” (instead of “hallowed”) and “liberate” (instead of “deliver”) would be cognates of the Latin as well.

 

[bzkoss236]

A better answer would address the use of English translations, whether from KJV, or Douay-Rheims, or other sources. I’ll let someone else track that down, but here is what Wikipedia says about the divergence in Greek:

There is also a later verse in another NT book (can’t remember off the top of my head), which states something to the effect of, “If you do not forgive others, nor will your Father, who is in Heaven, forgive you.”

 

[asia53]

Very interesting question.

I found a Catholic Answer Quick Question thread , which answers your question quite well:

Trespasses

 

[Khalid]

I say “debts” in my private English prayers, following the King James and Douay-Rheims Bibles, and, as you point out, the Vulgate (I generally pray in Latin, for my private devotions). I have no idea why the liturgical rubrics have it differently: as an above poster pointed out, likely due to cross-pollination with some form of “common liturgy”, or common worship, or the BCP during the Ecumenical Movement in the 20th c.

 

[maltmom]

Very interesting question.

I found a Catholic Answer Quick Question thread , which answers your question quite well:

Trespasses

Thank you for the link. As a convert I’ve wondered why we said it differently as well.

 

[SMHW]

I L

… as an above poster pointed out, likely due to cross-pollination with some form of “common liturgy”, or common worship, or the BCP during the Ecumenical Movement in the 20th c.

It IS interesting that the Church made the decision to go with common usage in the choice of the Lord’s Prayer for use in the Mass.

I sometimes get the sense that posters here imagine pre-Vatican II Catholics praying in Latin during their private devotions at home and in Catholic schools. In fact English speaking Catholics prayed in English and the current version of the Lord’s Prayer (minus the doxology) figured prominently in those devotional prayers.

Those lifelong Catholics who contributed to the various English translations of the Mass would most likely have grown up using the current version of the Lord’s Prayer.

 

[TC2]

Interesting thread.

I’ve grown up saying it both ways. In church and in private prayer.

 

[MattofTexas]

That link is interesting as well. It looks like it’s a matter of clarity of meaning as well as the influence of the Anglican tradition on English speaking Catholics (and this makes sense considering that Methodists are another group that say “trespasses” and they, of course, broke off from the Church of England). So it seems, as I already knew, it doesn’t really matter which word you use as long as you understand that the real meaning of either word is sins.

Follow up question: The doxology used by Protestants at the end (read as a part of) the Lord’s Prayer “For Thine is the Kingdom, and the Power, and the Glory forever. Amen” is also in the liturgy of the mass, after the prayer, just not tacked onto the end of it, right?

 

[Zekariya]

Another example of borrowing from the common Anglican translations:

The original Latin: Gloria Patri, et Filio, et Spiritui Sancto, Sicut erat in principio, et nunc, et semper, et in saecula saeculorum. Amen.

From the Anglican Book of Common Prayer: Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost; As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.

A more literal translation of the Latin: Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, As it was in the beginning, also now, and always, and to ages of ages. Amen.

 

[Khalid]

Not to mention the original Greek is “unto the age of ages”/“unto ages of ages” without any doubt or exception: there’s no way it means “world without end” in the original language the doxology was written in, no more chance than “day” in Genesis 1 means something other than those boxes which are marked off on calendars.

And… I say “unto the age of ages” as well. I pretty much refuse “world without end” - this is one I’ve actually debated priests and professors on. “World without end”? what does that even mean? What is it supposed to mean? An ungrammatical attempt at, “I will dwell in the house of the Lord for years to come” (Ps 22/23:7, NAB), when it literally is, “unto length of days”, and means, “and I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever”. - for this world most certainly is ending: “I saw the heavens and earth melt with all their elements, and pass away with great heat… and, behold, I saw a new heaven and a new earth, and a new Jerusalem descending…” (loose paraphrase of several different NT authors).

It’s one thing Catholic I’m not proud of - and there are few things Catholic that I’m not proud of, beyond this, which is quite large, the infiltration of heretical theories in to the Catholic academe, and the large-scale embrace of evolutionary ideology - which is this: the ham-fisted, cacophonic, and sometimes outright incorrect nature of the English versions of our sacred materials, whether it be the horrendous NAB, or the old missal, etc.

Now, the Latin is beautiful, and Catholics have pumped out some Supreme, with a capital “S”, writers of profane materials. We even have Thomas Merton, an excellent author of spiritual writings, but not sacred works. Why are there no Graham Greenes, GK Chestertons, Hillaire Bellocs, or Flannery O’Connors - amongst others, I had to trim the spontaneously-written list down - or, for that matter, any with a good ear for English, writing or translating our sacred materials, our Bible, our Mass, so on: instead, we’re left with a Bible that is quite possibly one of the worst penned in terms of English style (at least the Concordant Version has an excuse for reading like a deaf tom’s attempt at caterwauling), and hymns bodily looted - sheet and lyric - from the Protestants.

God knows we have plenty who can write good prose.

 

[Digitonomy]

A better answer would address the use of English translations, whether from KJV, or Douay-Rheims, or other sources.

Ok, so here’s part of a better answer:

Rheims Gospel of Luke:
And forgive us our sinnes
for because our selves also doe forgive every one that is in debt to us.

KJV Gospel of Luke:
And forgive us our sinnes
for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us

Rheims Gospel of Matthew:
And forgive us our dettes, as we also forgive our detters

KJV Gospel of Matthew:
And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debters.

In a Google book search, the earliest I can confirm the use of the phrase “Forgive us our trespasses,” is in the 1637 Book of Common Prayer from Scotland. This particular book was historically important, as described by Wikipedia…

Charles’ insistence that it be drawn up in secret and adopted sight unseen led to widespread discontent. When the Prayer Book was finally introduced at St Giles Cathedral in Edinburgh in mid-1637 it caused an outbreak of rioting, which spread across Scotland. In early 1638 the National Covenant was signed by large numbers of Scots, protesting at the introduction of the Prayer Book and other liturgical innovations that had not first been tested and approved by free Parliaments and General Assemblies of the Church. In November 1638, the General Assembly in Glasgow, the first to meet for twenty years, not only declared the Prayer Book unlawful, but went on to abolish the office of bishop itself. The Church of Scotland was then established on a Presbyterian basis.

I think this was a change from the previous Anglican BCP, although I can’t seem to find an earlier copy of it online to examine. I did find an interesting Meditation upon the Lords Prayer from 1619, supposedly written by King James. It does not mention the word “trespass” at all in this section. I modernized the spelling in this excerpt.

AND FORGIVE US OUR DEBTS, AS WE FORGIVE OUR DEBTORS. This is the fifth Petition and the most important of them all, for every man in particular; and therefore we are not to crave that inestimable benefit of the pardon of our debts, except upon that condition, that we forgive our debtors. St. Luke expresseth this condition more clearly:for he hath it thus,* And forgive us our sins, for we also forgive every one that is indebted unto us*. So as God cannot be moved for any other condition to pardon our sins, but because he sees we have already pardoned every one that hath offended us; and where every one is expressed, none is excepted : durus est hic sermo amongst them that are thought the brave men of this world. Our sins are called debts in Saint Matthew, as an argument à maiore ad minus, that if we would have God to pardon us our debts, how can we refuse to pardon our debtors; except we look for the like reward that the evil servant got of his Master : and in Saint Luke they are called sins, to teach us that if we would have our heavenly Father, to remit unto us all our innumerable mortal sins; how much more have we reason to pardon the offences of our brethren against us, which are but slight debts, in comparison of our grievous sins against God. And in that we pray God to forgive us our sins, we thereby make a general implicit confession of our sins: for if we had committed no sins, we would have no need to crave pardon for them. Whereupon it doth necessarily follow that if the doctrine of the Church of Rome be true, that diverse men can keep the ten Commandments, without ever in their life committing any mortal sin, then must all such persons be exempt from praying the LORDS PRAYER, as not having need of it, and their distinction between Mortal and Venial sin cannot elide this consequence…

 

[ProVobis]

FWIW, the Spanish seems to be closer to the Latin (as one might expect), although debita is translated to a cognate of the English “offense.”

Padre nuestro que estás en el Cielo,
santificado sea tu nombre,
venga a nosotros tu Reino,
hágase tu voluntad en la Tierra como en el Cielo,
danos hoy nuestro pan de cada día,
y perdona nuestras ofensas,
como también nosotros perdonamos a los que nos ofenden,
no nos dejes caer en la tentación,
y líbranos del mal,

Latin:

Pater noster, qui es in caelis;
sanctificetur nomen tuum;
adveniat regnum tuum;
fiat voluntas tua,
sicut in caelo et in terra.
Panem nostrum cotidianum da nobis hodie;
et dimitte nobis debita nostra,
sicut et nos dimittimus debitoribus nostris;
et ne nos inducas in tentationem;
sed libera nos a malo.

 

[HelenRose]

FWIW, the Spanish seems to be closer to the Latin (as one might expect), although debita is translated to a cognate of the English “offense.”

Padre nuestro que estás en el Cielo,
santificado sea tu nombre,
venga a nosotros tu Reino,
hágase tu voluntad en la Tierra como en el Cielo,
danos hoy nuestro pan de cada día,
y perdona nuestras ofensas,
como también nosotros perdonamos a los que nos ofenden,
no nos dejes caer en la tentación,
y líbranos del mal,

Latin:

Pater noster, qui es in caelis;
sanctificetur nomen tuum;
adveniat regnum tuum;
fiat voluntas tua,
sicut in caelo et in terra.
Panem nostrum cotidianum da nobis hodie;
et dimitte nobis debita nostra,
sicut et nos dimittimus debitoribus nostris;
et ne nos inducas in tentationem;
sed libera nos a malo.

 

[Digitonomy]

French also uses the cognate of offense. German, on the other hand, uses “schuld,” which can mean debt but translates most directly as guilt.

If my research from post #15 is correct that the phrase “Forgive us our trespasses” first appeared when it was imposed on the Church of Scotland in 1637, the question is why was the wording changed from that used previously by the Church of England. One idea I have is that perhaps word “debt” was not as relevant or not as widely used in Scotland, or even had a somewhat different meaning. “Trespass” might have been more relevant in the more rural setting of Scotland.

“Trespass” originally meant “pass beyond,” but its first known use to mean “unlawful entry” was by the Scottish Parliament in 1455.

I’m probably just grasping at straws…

 

[GraceSofia]

That link is interesting as well. It looks like it’s a matter of clarity of meaning as well as the influence of the Anglican tradition on English speaking Catholics (and this makes sense considering that Methodists are another group that say “trespasses” and they, of course, broke off from the Church of England). So it seems, as I already knew, it doesn’t really matter which word you use as long as you understand that the real meaning of either word is sins.

Follow up question: The doxology used by Protestants at the end (read as a part of) the Lord’s Prayer “For Thine is the Kingdom, and the Power, and the Glory forever. Amen” is also in the liturgy of the mass, after the prayer, just not tacked onto the end of it, right?

I think you’ll find this interesting: Who Added The Doxology?

 

[Khalid]

Without having read that, wasn’t the doxology added by Greek Orthodox scribes, who, having marked liturgical rubrics or glosses in the margin, mistakenly added it in to the Scriptural text itself?

For example, the Comma Johanneum likely entered in to the Scripture in the same way, except through Latin scribes, and, famously, the word “telos” in the margin of Mark 16:9 has been taken by many to mean the last twelve verses were dubious, whereas “telos” was merely a liturgical rubric stating that said reading from the Gospel of Mark had ended, with no implication as to the trustworthiness of the last twelve verses (which are authentic, as demonstrated by John Wm. Burgon in his book of the same name).

I’m currently undertaking a collation of some photoreproductions of Greek mss. for school, and, from what I have seen so far, even some relatively early ones (5th c., including as part of the Great Doxology in A, the most trustworthy of the Four Uncials; it’s also attested to by W, but W is notoriously corrupt [it’s the one that adds almost an entire chapter after Mk 16:14, the “Freer logion”]), witness to the presence of the doxology; John Burgon argued that the doxology was genuine, and was removed by mistake due to liturgical practices (the choir sang it, and then did not, so the priest could say it one last time), but, unlike for Mark, I do not find his argument utterly persuasive.