Why do Catholics Worship Saints?

[guanophore]

This quote was moved from another thread where it was off topic.

forum.catholic.com/showthread.php?p=2637400#post2637400

Interestingly, the OP was wondering why Protestants presume to know what Catholics believe, when they don’t. This series of posts turns out to be an example of what the OP was talking about in the topic!

I looked up the word “veneration” in the dictionary and this what it means honor something or somebody: to honor something or somebody as sacred or special

In the thesaurus it came up with these words:
revere, worship, adore, idolize, esteem, honor, respect, look up to, admire
antonym: disrespect

Worship means-religion treat somebody or something as deity: to treat somebody or something as divine and **show respect by engaging in acts of prayer and devotion **

In the thesaurus it uses these words–adoration, love, reverence, respect, devotion, adulation, veneration
Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2004. © 1993-2003 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

So no matter how catholics would like to get around this issue of worshipping Mary and saints, there is no getting around it. Worship is going on.

How do you honor them?

Do you honor them by praying to them?

Do the scriptures say we are to honor them?

Since Catholics are not limited by the error of Sola Scriptura, it does not really matter if the scriptures say we are to honor them, or not, but in fact, they do!

“There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. 11 For God shows no partiality.” Rom 2:9-11

“love one another with brotherly affection; outdo one another in showing honor.” Rom 12:10

" Pay all of them their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due." Rom 13:7

“Honor your father and mother” (this is the first commandment with a promise), 3 “that it may be well with you and that you may live long on the earth.” Eph 6:1-3

" So receive him in the Lord with all joy; and honor such men, 30 for he nearly died for the work of Christ, risking his life to complete your service to me "
Phil 2:29-30

“Honor widows who are real widows.” 1 Tim 5:3

“Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching;” 1 Tim 5:17-18

“Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God; consider the outcome of their life, and imitate their faith.” Heb 13:7

But I find no place where it instructs a person such as yourself to make false accusations against the brethren, or anyone else for that matter! Even if you believe Catholics are not your brothers in Christ, does that mean you should slander them?

If something has the elements of worship in it i.e. praise to, petition for help, kneeling before a statute etc all these things point to worship no matter what a person claims.

i don’t think so. Is Encarta defining these words correctly?

You are clearly uneducated on the nature of worship, justasking. It is impossible to worship without the will. If a person does not intend worship,then worship does not occur, no matter how many “motions” they may go through while they engage in elements. Having elements of something does not equate to being identical. Jesus celebrated the Passover with His disciples He kept the vast majority of the elements, and changed only a few. Did He intend for them to continue to practice the Passover according to the old covenant?

 

[Neil_Anthony]

You are clearly uneducated on the nature of worship, justasking. It is impossible to worship without the will. If a person does not intend worship,then worship does not occur, no matter how many “motions” they may go through while they engage in elements. Having elements of something does not equate to being identical. Jesus celebrated the Passover with His disciples He kept the vast majority of the elements, and changed only a few. Did He intend for them to continue to practice the Passover according to the old covenant?

What exactly is the distinction between worship and honor and veneration? I’ve always been told that “worship is what we reserve for God” but… specifically what is its definition and what test can we use to check whether our veneration of a saint crosses the line into worship?

 

[Sinke]

Let’s put it at easy as it can get.

To “worship” is to consider somebody a God, attribute Divine nature.

To “venerate” is to consider it worth of praise in religious context, to consider this person or object dear to God.

For example, you worship God, but you venerate St. Paul.

Bible mentions this when Paul claims that venerating angels is useless if you don’t worship the Head- which is Jesus Christ ( Colossians 2:18 ) - meaning that venerating angels is practice known to Bible, altough useless if you don’t claim Jesus as Head of your life.

 

[Joel_Tunnah]

This slander will never die because protestants don’t want it to die. Putting forth reasoned arguments won’t change that.

Someone who asks “Why do you treat Mary like God?” has done absolutely no research into catholic belief. None. Zip. Zero.
10 minutes with the CCC would answer their question.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Let’s put it at easy as it can get.

To “worship” is to consider somebody a God, attribute Divine nature.

To “venerate” is to consider it worth of praise in religious context, to consider this person or object dear to God.

But protestants will say that we do just that, we consider the saints to be demi-gods and worship them. And when we argue that no, God is the God, and they are lesser beings, they would counter that in paganism there is a hierarchy of gods too, and that what we call a saint is the same as what pagans consider a lower-level god.

There has to be some distinction between worship and venerate other than just saying that one is what we do to God and one is what we do to a saint.

 

[VociMike]

justasking4 shows a fundamental lack of understanding as to what a thesaurus is and does.

 

[Brendan]

What exactly is the distinction between worship and honor and veneration? I’ve always been told that “worship is what we reserve for God” but… specifically what is its definition and what test can we use to check whether our veneration of a saint crosses the line into worship?

We are told we have to Honor our Father and Mother (Ex 20:12)

So clearly, God envisions a difference between Honor and Worship.

So lets look at the differences.

To Honor is to show merited respect, like we are supposed to do for our parents, elders, as yes, those Sanctified by God.

Veneration is the act of bestowing Honor, or more specifically Love ( The Latin venerari is a form of ‘to love’). So when we love someone, we vernerate them.

Worship is recognition of a Divine Being or an expression thereof.

So the ‘dividing line’ would be of the person rendering recognition acknowledges or considers the subject to be Divine.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Veneration is the act of bestowing Honor, or more specifically Love ( The Latin venerari is a form of ‘to love’). So when we love someone, we vernerate them.

Worship is recognition of a Divine Being or an expression thereof.

So the ‘dividing line’ would be of the person rendering recognition acknowledges or considers the subject to be Divine.

I don’t really like playing devil’s advocate, but I can’t think of any other way to illustrate what I want to say here.

Let’s take sort of an extreme example. Let’s say I have a statue of buddha in my home and every morning and evening I kneel down before it and say “Buddha, I love you, I honor you, I venerate you, holy Buddha”. When someone points out that perhaps I’m in danger of violating the first commandment, I say 'Oh no, I’m just venerating, not worshipping. Buddha isn’t my god, he is just a person I love and honor.

According to the definitions we’re using, that wouldn’t be worshipping a false god, because I do not consider Buddha to be god. Actually I don’t think real buddhists consider Buddha to be god. So would this scenario present a problem?

 

[justasking4]

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
If something has the elements of worship in it i.e. praise to, petition for help, kneeling before a statute etc all these things point to worship no matter what a person claims.

i don’t think so. Is Encarta defining these words correctly?

You are clearly uneducated on the nature of worship, justasking. It is impossible to worship without the will. If a person does not intend worship,then worship does not occur, no matter how many “motions” they may go through while they engage in elements.

Do your think when the children of Israel were worshipping the golden calf that they were not worshipping God? Did they not think this was the right thing to do?

Having elements of something does not equate to being identical.

I agree. However it does not have to be identical but similar.

Jesus celebrated the Passover with His disciples He kept the vast majority of the elements, and changed only a few. Did He intend for them to continue to practice the Passover according to the old covenant?

__
No.

---

"πάντα δὲ δοκιμάζετε τὸ καλὸν κατέχετε " 1 Thess 5:21

 

[andzy]

justasking4:

If something has the elements of worship in it i.e. praise to, petition for help, kneeling before a statute etc all these things point to worship no matter what a person claims.

Apparently justasking4 has never proposed/been proposed - at least in a traditional way, when the guy gets on his knee. Or maybe justasking4 has managed to avoid such idolatry…

 

[justasking4]

I don’t really like playing devil’s advocate, but I can’t think of any other way to illustrate what I want to say here.

Let’s take sort of an extreme example. Let’s say I have a statue of buddha in my home and every morning and evening I kneel down before it and say “Buddha, I love you, I honor you, I venerate you, holy Buddha”. When someone points out that perhaps I’m in danger of violating the first commandment, I say 'Oh no, I’m just venerating, not worshipping. Buddha isn’t my god, he is just a person I love and honor.

According to the definitions we’re using, that wouldn’t be worshipping a false god, because I do not consider Buddha to be god. Actually I don’t think real buddhists consider Buddha to be god. So would this scenario present a problem?

Would you have a problem if a catholic did this?

 

[andzy]

Would you have a problem if a catholic did this?

Yes. Obviously, such an act of veneration is a religious act - even though Buddha is not a god (for one thing, Buddha is long dead, and cannot be communicated with using natural ways).
However, this religious act has nothing to do with Christ and His Kingdom (unlike prayers sent to Christian saints - I think every Protestant and anti-Catholic should recognize that). In fact, with this act the person is giving homage (so to speak) to beliefs and values that in many aspects are not Christian and are even anti-Christian: for example, Buddhists don’t believe in the Holy Trinity, that Christ is the Son of the Father and our Savior, that we need to accept Him and live in Him in order to be received into His Kingdom, etc., etc. Thus in a way such veneration of Buddha is against Christ, and brings the person away from the Lord.
For these reasons, no Christian should do such an un-Christian thing.

P.S. If Protestants could understand the reasons behind Catholics veneration of saints, they would be able to accept it much more (even when disagreeing), because they’d see that it is not idolatry, but a way of living life closer to Christ.

 

[RobHom]

justasking4 shows a fundamental lack of understanding as to what a thesaurus is and does.

Precisely!!

I believe in that same thread, I posted this, from Websters:

veneration
One entry found for veneration.
Main Entry: ven·er·a·tion
Pronunciation: "ve-n&-'rA-sh&n
Function: noun
1 : respect or awe inspired by the dignity, wisdom, dedication, or talent of a person.

Maybe this too, will help “justasking”:

thesaurus
One entry found for thesaurus.
Main Entry: the·sau·rus
Pronunciation: thi-'sor-&s
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural the·sau·ri /-'sor-"I, -"E /; or the·sau·rus·es /-'sor-&-s&z/
Etymology: New Latin, from Latin, treasure, collection, from Greek thEsauros
1 : TREASURY, STOREHOUSE
2 a : a book of words or of information about a particular field or set of concepts; especially : a book of words and their synonyms b : a list of subject headings or descriptors usually with a cross-reference system for use in the organization of a collection of documents for reference and retrieval.

But what else do you expect…based on the ill informed and biased allegations he/she has made?

 

[Reepicheep]

Do your think when the children of Israel were worshipping the golden calf that they were not worshipping God? Did they not think this was the right thing to do?

The Isrealites intended to worship. Intent makes the difference.

 

[VociMike]

Originally Posted by VociMike
justasking4 shows a fundamental lack of understanding as to what a thesaurus is and does.

And just to show how using a thesaurus as a theological dictionary can cut both ways, here are the thesaurus entries for “God”:

Jehovah, absolute being, all knowing, all powerful, almighty, creator, daemon, deity, demigod, demon, divine being, divinity, father, holiness, holy spirit, idol, infinite spirit, lord, maker, man upstairs, numen, omnipotent, power, prime mover, providence, soul, spirit, totem, tutelary, world spirit

Since I assume that justasking4 worships God, I guess I can then assert that justasking4 worships demons, demigods, idols, souls, spirits and totems.

Doesn’t sound very Christian to me.

 

[RobHom]

Do your think when the children of Israel were worshipping the golden calf that they were not worshipping God? Did they not think this was the right thing to do?

It is common knowledge that when the Jews were “worshipping” the “golden calf”…they were worshiping a FALSE PAGAN GOD. Its as simple as that. What they thought was wrong and the aftermath that followed proved it. SO whats your point?

I agree. However it does not have to be identical but similar.

You are apparently suffering from “lockjaw” of the brain. See the post above this one where I posted the meaning of the word VENERATION. If that doesn’t make the difference between worship and veneration clear…then you have a serious problem in that you are intractably incapable of admitting you are in error.

Look at it this way, you have been taught a falsehood, and the facts are: CATHOLICS DO NOT “WORSHIP” THE VIRGIN MARY OR THE SAINTS. Get a firm grip on that fact and hold it close and dear. To continue to reguritatively spew the same venomous lies that you do over and over…is just plain “stupid”.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Worship is defined as what you to do a God, while veneration is what you do to a saint or angel.

God is defined as a being worthy of worship.

That’s circular!

I’ve heard so many sermons saying that I have turned my TV into an idol my worshipping it as a false god. I certainly had no intention of that. And if a TV can be a god to me, why can’t a saint?

If the best distinction between worship and venerate is that one applies to a divine being and the other doesn’t, we need a better definition of what makes one being divine and the next not divine.

In a lot of religions their gods are less spectacular than Mary or the saints. The pharoahs were gods. Those rats in that temple in india are gods. My TV can even be a god, without me even realizing it.

 

[RobHom]

This slander will never die because protestants don’t want it to die. Putting forth reasoned arguments won’t change that.

Someone who asks “Why do you treat Mary like God?” has done absolutely no research into catholic belief. None. Zip. Zero.
10 minutes with the CCC would answer their question.

Joel, how RIGHT you are!!

And at the same time, what these false teachers and proffers of this garbage fail to realize is that there claims are false, and we know it, and their constant bleating noises do naught but cause us to stand firmer and more staunchly in our faith and beliefs.

 

[VociMike]

Umm, God is certainly not defined as being worthy of worship.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

You are apparently suffering from “lockjaw” of the brain. See the post above this one where I posted the meaning of the word VENERATION.

To continue to reguritatively spew the same venomous lies that you do over and over…is just plain “stupid”.

Wow, I’m just a good catholic with some questions, this is getting a bit nasty. I personally ask Mary and the saints to pray for me all the time, but I wouldn’t normally kneel down in front of their statues, I just find that feels too much like worship. I’m hardly a venomous heretic, just careful about crossing the line.