Why do Christians so easily submit to atheists?

[Tom22]

Hello. I am Muslim but I would like to ask why have Christians so easily accepted atheism and the bullying of the evolutionists to try and bring down their religion? Even though I am Muslim I have a lot of respect for many Christians who i know, I often have discussions with them and I admire the charity work they do. But it only seems like the elderly (particularly elderly black) Christians still stay true to their morals and values. There are a lot of Christians who agree with the atheists and evolutionists in their dismissal of God and only care about materialism and living in the moment. Or rather they may not be practicing their religion but they still describe themselves as ‘Christian’ on census form and things. You rarely get Muslims describing themselves as ‘Muslim’ but at the same time caring more about the latest iphone than praying.

I live in the UK and even recently there has been some legislation for gay people to get married in churches and I was shocked that many prominent bishops just came out and said ‘Oh we don’t really agree but we’ll accept it anyway in the name of progress!’. And the UK Prime Minister describes himself as a practicing Christian but has no compunction about letting gay marriage happen in the Church.

If it had been enforced that gays are to be married in mosques you would see millions of Muslims rioting and protesting and not standing for it. These days secular comedians mock and make fun of Catholics and Protestants all the time but the Christian world stays silent and lets them get away with it where as you see Muslims out defending the Qu’ran and Muhammad in protests and pickets, but even some Christians and Jews have called those Muslims out as ‘extremists’ and lacking intelligence. So I would like to ask, what is wrong with defending your religion and Prophets against an onslaught of atheism and Darwin/Dawkins worshipers? And how much abuse and ridicule should be stood for before Christians say ‘I’m not staying silent anymore, I’m taking to the streets’

Many thanks for your replies.

 

[Fairwinds]

Hello. I am Muslim but I would like to ask why have Christians so easily accepted atheism and the bullying of the evolutionists to try and bring down their religion?

as an evolutionist, I find your question uninformed.

These days secular comedians mock and make fun of Catholics and Protestants all the time but the Christian world stays silent and lets them get away with it where as you see Muslims out defending the Qu’ran and Muhammad in protests and pickets, but even some Christians and Jews have called those Muslims out as ‘extremists’ and lacking intelligence. So I would like to ask, what is wrong with defending your religion and Prophets against an onslaught of atheism and Darwin/Dawkins worshipers? And how much abuse and ridicule should be stood for before Christians say ‘I’m not staying silent anymore, I’m taking to the streets’

Many thanks for your replies.

I suppose we’re secure enough in our faith so that we we don’t need to issue fatwahs calling for death or violence.

 

[Tom22]

as an evolutionist, I find your question uninformed.

How can you be an evolutionist and also believe in a Creator? Evolutionists assert that we all come from the same ancestor as fish and rabbits and see no need for a Creator, and many (especially among the scientific elite) say that belief in a Creator is for the ‘stupid and uneducated’.

I suppose we’re secure enough in our faith so that we we don’t need to issue fatwahs calling for death or violence.

So you can be secure in your faith, but must accept all manner of sneering ridicule and vitriol from secularists and atheists, just as long as we don’t call for violence, and everyone stays in line and knows their place. I always preferred the philosophy of Malcolm X to Gandhi. What’s the point of believing in something if you don’t want to use all in your power to defend it?

 

[Brendan_64]

How can you be an evolutionist and also believe in a Creator? Evolutionists assert that we all come from the same ancestor as fish and rabbits and see no need for a Creator

Where is the issue here? God created the entire universe, not just mankind. God created all the laws of the universe and all the processes inherent throughout the universe. God created the process of evolution. The universe started at a point in time, as did the processes in the universe. They did not always exist, they were created.

The book of Genesis is not a literal, historical text. It is metaphorical in nature. There is no conflict between believing in the theory of physical evolution and being a Christian.

The fact that some who believe in evolution are atheists is irrelevant. Many people who believe that the sun is a ball of gas are atheists, does that mean it is incompatible for Christians to believe the sun is a ball of gas?

 

[Fairwinds]

How can you be an evolutionist and also believe in a Creator? Evolutionists assert that we all come from the same ancestor as fish and rabbits and see no need for a Creator, and many (especially among the scientific elite) say that belief in a Creator is for the ‘stupid and uneducated’.

very easily. I simply don’t subscribe to strawmen and misrepresentations of science, as you do, so I’m not faux offended.

So you can be secure in your faith, but must accept all manner of sneering ridicule and vitriol from secularists and atheists, just as long as we don’t call for violence, and everyone stays in line and knows their place. I always preferred the philosophy of Malcolm X to Gandhi. What’s the point of believing in something if you don’t want to use all in your power to defend it?

I’ve never felt the need to murder people who dissented, if that’s what you’re asking.

moreover, I’m not interested in what you think about Malcom X or Gandhi or mickey mouse for that matter. you’re asking about a Christian response to bigotry or imaginary bigotry and I gave you an answer. you managed to take your own thread off topic by the second post. nice job.

 

[Brendan_64]

These days secular comedians mock and make fun of Catholics and Protestants all the time but the Christian world stays silent and lets them get away with it where as you see Muslims out defending the Qu’ran and Muhammad in protests and pickets, but even some Christians and Jews have called those Muslims out as ‘extremists’ and lacking intelligence. So I would like to ask, what is wrong with defending your religion and Prophets against an onslaught of atheism and Darwin/Dawkins worshipers? And how much abuse and ridicule should be stood for before Christians say ‘I’m not staying silent anymore, I’m taking to the streets’

Christianity was set up by God on Earth to save the humanity. Christianity exists, nit just for Christians, but for all. You cannot force someone into salvation, they must come willingly, of their own free will.

You do not evangelise effectively through rioting, issuing death threats, and killing people. How will any of that encourage the very people you attack to willingly embrace your Faith?

Christianity is part of wider society, not separate to it. Non-Christians (including atheists) are not our enemies, they are are lost brothers and sisters who we desperately want to encourage back into the fold. This will not be achieved by attacking them and treating them with hostility.

My Faith is a religion of peace, is yours?

My Faith exists for the salvation of all humanity, does yours?

My Faith believes that people must come willingly, rather than through coercion, does yours?

 

[Aaron780]

In some ways I agree with Tom22, Christians dont ever seem to stick up for their religion, I dont see the harm in having a peaceful protest sometimes, now the issue with gay marriage and gay adoption is crossing the line now imo, France today have just made it legal! well done france, thats just aweful! we should be sticking up the children in this situation if anything, imagine the confusion in a childs life growing up, the bullying, and what could potentially happen to them with two gay men adopting them, nobodys thinking about the kids here are they which is disgraceful, If christians and muslims joined together on this issue then countries may think twice about it, again we should be doing this simply for the children and sticking up for our common values, a gay society is a doomed one.

 

[Tom22]

Where is the issue here? God created the entire universe, not just mankind. God created all the laws of the universe and all the processes inherent throughout the universe. God created the process of evolution. The universe started at a point in time, as did the processes in the universe. They did not always exist, they were created.

The book of Genesis is not a literal, historical text. It is metaphorical in nature. There is no conflict between believing in the theory of physical evolution and being a Christian.

The fact that some who believe in evolution are atheists is irrelevant. Many people who believe that the sun is a ball of gas are atheists, does that mean it is incompatible for Christians to believe the sun is a ball of gas?

To hold the position of belief that evolution within species has happened, but that the theory of evolution is not an adequate explanation for mans origin is a perfectly reasonable one to take. However, how many evolutionists and members of the scientific elite really hold this view? As far as I can tell nearly all of them firmly state that we all evolved from a simple, unicellular prokaryotic common ancestor, and that a belief in a Creator is mere fairytale, akin to the easter bunny and tooth fairy.

Now my point here is that Muslims are not letting these scientific overlords dictate what we should believe and push us around, where it seems Christians are too willing to make compromises with them. These atheists and evolutionists are not simply saying ‘We respect your religion, we just disagree’, but they are outright mocking - especially through media and Hollywood --making fun of the beliefs of monotheists. However, they know there is a line to be drawn with Muslims, and there are certain things we just will not stand for, as Salman Rushdie found out.

It seems it has become open season on Christianity in particular recently, and gay marriage, gay adoption, abortion, feminizing of men, etc are all being pushed with impunity on BOTH Muslims and Christians, but like I said there is a line, at least currently, they know not to cross with Muslims because we fight back.

 

[Nita]

. What’s the point of believing in something if you don’t want to use all in your power to defend it?

We do use all in our power to defend it – all in our power that agrees with what we believe.
We believe it is wrong to hate one’s enemies. We believe we are to love them.
We believe it is wrong to kill one’s enemies (with a few exceptions: self defense & just war)

It is very difficult to hold one’s temper when angry or insulted and not respond with violence and/or hateful words — far more difficult than giving in to anger and instinctively lashing out with physical or verbal violence,
Giving in to passion is easy; it’s the one’s who learn to exercise control over their passions that are the strong ones.

 

[KP3243]

Christians tend to live in democracies and in not dictatorships although some of our brothers and sisters in Christ do live in dictatoships however those of us graced to live in a democracy, can protest nonviolently and work to change a culture through the democratic process. Christians are supposed to be nonviolent and respect authority until it violates moral law then you have to be willing to go to jail or die but you have to do it without violence to others even if they are violent to you. The UK doesn’t have a lot of Catholics I suspect that if you saw the Catholics at the March for Life every January in DC you might have a different opinion about Christians and protesting unjust laws there where almost a million this year.

 

[philial]

You’re not really a muslim, are you Tom? Just another atheist who thinks he can manipulate religions by appealing to the worst side of human nature? Silly boy! You’re going to have to be a lot more clever than this to convince me you are kosher… or even halal, for that matter.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

It seems it has become open season on Christianity in particular recently, and gay marriage, gay adoption, abortion, feminizing of men, etc are all being pushed with impunity on BOTH Muslims and Christians, but like I said there is a line, at least currently, they know not to cross with Muslims because we fight back.

Tom,

you are right about it: it really is open season on us and it will get worse in the western countries, I’m sure of it. Reading your posts I can feel my blood starting to boil because the secularist hatred of religion and particularly of Christianity really gets to me, I absolutely hate it. However, Christ teaches us a better way than to take on the streets and fight when we are offended. It is a hard way and goes against our human nature. In the Gospels we learn how Peter tried to defend Jesus from a soldier by pulling a sword on him and hurting him. But Jesus said no, ordered Peter to step away and healed the soldier. This is what we should aim for, even if it means getting hurt and losing battles. But Christ won the war and that is something we always keep in mind.

But there is another part to the story. Practicing Christians are a minority in the UK. Those in name only really don’t care about God, they are secular people who have taken all the norms of the secular world and seem to be happy with them. They are embarrassed for the church and its beliefs and moral values and are happy to reject it all in the name of progress and modernity.

 

[Brendan_64]

To hold the position of belief that evolution within species has happened, but that the theory of evolution is not an adequate explanation for mans origin is a perfectly reasonable one to take. However, how many evolutionists and members of the scientific elite really hold this view? As far as I can tell nearly all of them firmly state that we all evolved from a simple, unicellular prokaryotic common ancestor, and that a belief in a Creator is mere fairytale, akin to the easter bunny and tooth fairy…

Well that’s up to them to believe that isn’t it? Just because some evolutionists don’t believe God exists, that doesn’t mean that all people who believe in evolution do not believe in God, nor does it mkae the theory of evolution incompatible with Christianity.

Now my point here is that Muslims are not letting these scientific overlords dictate what we should believe and push us around, where it seems Christians are too willing to make compromises with them…

Nobody is telling you what to believe. You are entitled to believe what you like, just as they are entitled to hold their beliefs. Or are you actually saying that atheists are not entitled to hold their beliefs?

These atheists and evolutionists are not simply saying ‘We respect your religion, we just disagree’, but they are outright mocking - especially through media and Hollywood --making fun of the beliefs of monotheists.

Again, they are entitled to hold their beliefs about us. They are entitled to mock us, should they wish to do so. They are also entitled to mock Islam, should they wish to do so.

However, they know there is a line to be drawn with Muslims, and there are certain things we just will not stand for, as Salman Rushdie found out.

So that’s the answer is it? Threaten to kill anyone who says something you disagree with? Agree with us or we’ll blow you up or behead you, eh?

Salman Rushdie had every right to write what he wrote and say what he did. If you don’t like it, then that’s just tough. And you achieved nothing by threatening to kill him. You did not stop his book. On the contrary your actions gave him huge publicity and made his book a great success and an international best seller (in fact I actually got that book myself, just to see what all the fuss was about) .All that happened by this action was that Islam was portrayed in a very bad light and resulted in people viewing it as cruel and barbaric.

but like I said there is a line, at least currently, they know not to cross with Muslims because we fight back.

I bet that makes you feel all big and strong. Don’t mess with us Muslims or we’ll kill you.

Is that the way it is? Is that why Islam exists? To compel others, by force, to submit to the laws of Islam (whether or not they submit freely)? And if you don’t submit then you’ll be executed?

As Christians we believe in the gift of free will, given to mankind by God. Man will be saved when he comes to the Lord freely, willingly and out of love. Man will not be saved by being forced to submit at the point of a sword. Jesus created the Christian Church to evangelise the world with a message of love and hope, not to wage war on anyone who holds different beliefs.

 

[jesus4ever]

To anwer your question in a few short lines the Catholic church is the only true christan faith and no gay couples will ever get married esp by a catholic priest.

Also people loose there faith or grow up with no faith because of many factors but i would like to think that it starts in the family and when there is no religon in the family it is very very hard for a person to except and understand religon when they are older.

The church and people within the faith do come out and speak from time to time about things but they right away get pushed away because when they do speak out people out of the faith say right away that what they are trying to say or explain is simply old fashon.

We Do not need to take to the streets as you have said and defend our religion. We all see people defending islam around the world and what they do is cause alot of trouble and make people fear them and in the end dislike them. Not everybody but in the group there are always a few that go over the top.

The government can do want they want to make up any laws or rule they want but it doesn’t mean that we have to accept them and do them. We can stay away from the thing they allow or disallow as long as we are doing right with God.

 

[jesus4ever]

Tom I just want to tell you that the Pope made 800 people saints recently because they died for their faith. They didn’t die in a violent fight or war simply because they where forced to convert to islam or be killed and they refused and accepted death. Now what bothers me is that if one of the commandments says do not kill then why do things like this happen in your faith.

 

[St_Francis]

Tom,
Welcome to CAF

I think that you have some misconceptions about Christians, just as we have some misconceptions about Islam.

First “Christian” are not one group. In fact, non-Westerners sometimes think that most Westerners are practicing Christians, bit this has unfortunately not been the case for a long time. Even before that, tho, Christianity was split into various groups, much as Moslems are (Shi’a, Sunni, etc).

Catholicism is the Church founded by Christ. Protestants are those who broke away either directly or indirectly. The more people broke away from groups who had broken away from groups who had broken away, the further from the Truth which Christ revealed we got, and so ended up in a situation where many who call themselves Christian really have very little religion at all (and unfortunately this has seeped into the Catholic population as well). So you must first understand that not all Westerners are Christian, not all Christians have the truth, and that the overwhelming majority of even self-identified Christians are really atheists in practice.

The second misconception is about God. The Catholic Church teaches that God loves us and wants us to come to Him freely. After all, it is not really love unless it is freely given, is it? So we are forbidden to force people to convert, nor do we kill people who leave the Church.

In addition, we do not take it personally when someone believes differently than we do. We feel a sense of empathy for Christ, Who died for our sins and Who is being rejected, but we also understand that it is God Who is in charge, not us. This can be very difficult! There are certainly times when I would like to do something violent to those who are hurting Christ, but I try to remember to turn that to prayer rather than to physical action.

We have specific rules regarding when to take physical action, and these are important for us to follow as they are God’s rules.

So, there are times when we fight, but we have several criteria which must be met first. So it is that we do not riot and kill people associated with those who behead reporters, bomb nightclubs, attack children. Nor do we do that to those who espouse evolution and the like.

Here are the rules for just war:
the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;
all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
there must be serious prospects of success;
the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.

From EWTN

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Hello. I am Muslim but I would like to ask why have Christians so easily accepted atheism and the bullying of the evolutionists to try and bring down their religion? Even though I am Muslim I have a lot of respect for many Christians who i know, I often have discussions with them and I admire the charity work they do. But it only seems like the elderly (particularly elderly black) Christians still stay true to their morals and values. There are a lot of Christians who agree with the atheists and evolutionists in their dismissal of God and only care about materialism and living in the moment. Or rather they may not be practicing their religion but they still describe themselves as ‘Christian’ on census form and things. You rarely get Muslims describing themselves as ‘Muslim’ but at the same time caring more about the latest iphone than praying.

I live in the UK and even recently there has been some legislation for gay people to get married in churches and I was shocked that many prominent bishops just came out and said ‘Oh we don’t really agree but we’ll accept it anyway in the name of progress!’. And the UK Prime Minister describes himself as a practicing Christian but has no compunction about letting gay marriage happen in the Church.

If it had been enforced that gays are to be married in mosques you would see millions of Muslims rioting and protesting and not standing for it. These days secular comedians mock and make fun of Catholics and Protestants all the time but the Christian world stays silent and lets them get away with it where as you see Muslims out defending the Qu’ran and Muhammad in protests and pickets, but even some Christians and Jews have called those Muslims out as ‘extremists’ and lacking intelligence. So I would like to ask, what is wrong with defending your religion and Prophets against an onslaught of atheism and Darwin/Dawkins worshipers? And how much abuse and ridicule should be stood for before Christians say ‘I’m not staying silent anymore, I’m taking to the streets’

Many thanks for your replies.

I don’t think Catholics are submitting to atheists. The reason some Catholics do not live their faith has more to do with the attractions of the world, the cares of the world, and the weakness of the flesh. I have no knowledge of the attitude of the Bishops of England in regard to gay marriages. If true that would be wrong and I would explain such an attitude on fear of futher reprisals from the government. I think the Bishops in the U.S. would act differently.

Evolution is a forbidden topic. However, the Church takes no definite stand on that except that the first man was a true human being and his body was not generated from an animal in usual understanding of that term and that in some way the first woman was formed from the first man and that the only human beings were generated from this firs couple. And that any type of evolution would still require the direct causality of God and that most intimately. It would still require his directive and preservative action. It would be an evolution according to his Divine Plan and directed and governed by him.

We welcome your participation but let’s not turn it into a political debate. Linus2nd

 

[Brendan_64]

However, the Church takes no definite stand on that except that the first man was a true human being and his body was not generated from an animal in usual understanding of that term and that in some way the first woman was formed from the first man

That’s not exactly correct. The Church does allow for the possibility that man’s body developed from previous biological forms (i.e. from animals) through the scientific process of evolution of species, under God’s guidance. The Church does however insist that souls were created specially by God, but other than that there are no provisos on how our species came to be. The book of Genesis, in its entirety, can be viewed by Catholics as a metaphorical text.

I’m not wanting to turn this into a debate on evolution (so I will not post another comment on this issue) just wanting to point out the actual position of the Catholic Church on the matter, particularly when a non-Catholic will be reading such comments with interest.

 

[devoutchristian]

Christian theology dictates that a private individual should only use force to combat an occurring or imminent attack on his or another’s person or property. There are a few Catholic countries (like Malta) that have laws prohibiting blasphemy, although they don’t use the death penalty because that would not be in accordance with Catholic teaching.

 

[ellzeena]

I suppose we’re secure enough in our faith so that we we don’t need to issue fatwahs calling for death or violence.

I am shocked by the lack of charity and the judgmentalism in this sentence!

OP: WE do defend, just not as many as should. Atheism is a belief system and one that is essentially untenable because it implies/infers that the “thinker” (atheist) knows everything. In order to make a statement “There is no God”, one MUST know everything. When someone makes such a statement to me, I ask them to explain, then, the simplest thing: the cure for cancer. If s/he, as an atheist, has the absolute knowledge necessary to acclaim that God does NOT exist, then such a question would be quite easy, would it not?

I apologize for the ad hominem attack made in the above quoted answer. Please do not judge the Lord Jesus by His servants: we are lacking, as are all, and often we forget Whom we represent.