Why do Christians so easily submit to atheists?

[devoutchristian]

I am shocked by the lack of charity and the judgmentalism in this sentence!

So you’re judging his sentence to be judgmental?

 

[Brendan_64]

I am shocked by the lack of charity and the judgmentalism in this sentence!

In fairness to Fairwinds the OP did specifically support rioting.

…you would see millions of Muslims rioting and protesting and not standing for it. … And how much abuse and ridicule should be stood for before Christians say ‘I’m not staying silent anymore, I’m taking to the streets’

He later mentioned Salman Rushdie and the fatwah that was put upon him lauding this to be a good thing. What else is this, other than supporting a sentence calling for Muslims to kill a man who was simply expressing his opinions in a book?

However, they know there is a line to be drawn with Muslims, and there are certain things we just will not stand for, as Salman Rushdie found out.

We ought to be charitable, but we should not let our desire to be charitable lead us to ignore, or turn a blind eye to such things. The OP has spoken in favour of riotiing and of at least the fathwah on Salman Rushdie, so Fairwind’s response is entirely appropriate and not uncharitable.

 

[Tom22]

I do not see that the Rushdie and the cartoon protests made Islam look barbaric and cruel at all. Rather I see it that Muslims are standing up for what we believe in a world full of secularization and materialism, and dismissal of anyone who believes in a Creator to be childlike and uneducated. Not a day goes by where some Hollywood comedian or celebrity doesn’t take to Twitter or TV to deride Jesus, Noah and the flood, the Bible. They do this with Muhammad and Qu’ran too but to a less harsher degree because they know that it is not tolerated in Islam. I remember when Madonna wiped her feet on a Bible to support gay rights, safe in the knowledge that she could get away with it because she knew the Christian reaction would be timid, and any Christian that spoke out against her would be dismissed by her fans as a ‘fundamentalist’.

I am not for one moment suggesting religious people should attempt to FORCE these atheists and secularists to convert to a religion of choice, I am merely saying that we shouldn’t allow them to get too confident in their agenda. In my opinion there is an agenda to rid the world of all religious belief in favour of debauchery, deprivation, and animalistic desires under the cloak of ‘free will’. And by allowing atheists and their ilk to permeate every level of society and get their way of stopping children from having a religion, gays adopt children, more abortion and so on, it is playing right into it. If Catholics and Protestants are okay with that then… I am just thankful that Islam doesn’t roll over the moment a professor fellow with a fancy title and plumy English accent shouts ‘It’s progress, you’re just a bigot!’

 

[SaintFrancis333]

Hello. I am Muslim but I would like to ask why have Christians so easily accepted atheism and the bullying of the evolutionists to try and bring down their religion? Even though I am Muslim I have a lot of respect for many Christians who i know, I often have discussions with them and I admire the charity work they do. But it only seems like the elderly (particularly elderly black) Christians still stay true to their morals and values. There are a lot of Christians who agree with the atheists and evolutionists in their dismissal of God and only care about materialism and living in the moment. Or rather they may not be practicing their religion but they still describe themselves as ‘Christian’ on census form and things. You rarely get Muslims describing themselves as ‘Muslim’ but at the same time caring more about the latest iphone than praying.

I live in the UK and even recently there has been some legislation for gay people to get married in churches and I was shocked that many prominent bishops just came out and said ‘Oh we don’t really agree but we’ll accept it anyway in the name of progress!’. And the UK Prime Minister describes himself as a practicing Christian but has no compunction about letting gay marriage happen in the Church.

If it had been enforced that gays are to be married in mosques you would see millions of Muslims rioting and protesting and not standing for it. These days secular comedians mock and make fun of Catholics and Protestants all the time but the Christian world stays silent and lets them get away with it where as you see Muslims out defending the Qu’ran and Muhammad in protests and pickets, but even some Christians and Jews have called those Muslims out as ‘extremists’ and lacking intelligence. So I would like to ask, what is wrong with defending your religion and Prophets against an onslaught of atheism and Darwin/Dawkins worshipers? And how much abuse and ridicule should be stood for before Christians say ‘I’m not staying silent anymore, I’m taking to the streets’

Many thanks for your replies.

Much like the muslim world staying silent in light of all the violence committed by the radical extremists. To commit evil is wrong. But to see evil being committed and do nothing? That’s worse.

 

[Brendan_64]

I do not see that the Rushdie and the cartoon protests made Islam look barbaric and cruel at all.

So calling on Muslims around the world to kill a person simply because they expressed their opinion in a books, or drew some silly cartoons is not cruel or barbaric?

So what do you think the ‘successful’ outcome of a fatwah is if the sentenced person is caught? His beheading? If this happened would you condemn those who carried out the killing as murderers or would you applaud them as defenders of Islam?

Do you think that the killing of Salman Rushdie would be an appropriate punishment for writing a book you disapprove of?

I remember when Madonna wiped her feet on a Bible to support gay rights, safe in the knowledge that she could get away with it because she knew the Christian reaction would be timid

And if she did that to the Qu’ran what would you do? Have her killed?

I would far rather live in a world where people are allowed to insult my beliefs and live, than to live in a world where people are executed for insulting my beliefs.

 

[Tom22]

Christians tend to live in democracies and in not dictatorships although some of our brothers and sisters in Christ do live in dictatoships however those of us graced to live in a democracy, can protest nonviolently and work to change a culture through the democratic process. Christians are supposed to be nonviolent and respect authority until it violates moral law then you have to be willing to go to jail or die but you have to do it without violence to others even if they are violent to you. The UK doesn’t have a lot of Catholics I suspect that if you saw the Catholics at the March for Life every January in DC you might have a different opinion about Christians and protesting unjust laws there where almost a million this year.

But in the UK the democratic process is going the complete opposite way that Christians should want. Even now the UK has an affluent, right-wing, conservative, male-dominated government, which some people (unfairly in my view) would associate in certain ways with Christianity, and they are implementing some of the most un-Christian policies you could find. Again a comparison here with Muslims who are going to the streets to teach people about the benefits of sharia and God’s law over the set up they have right now. Only people in the UK protesting against prostitution, gambling, marginalizing of the poor, abortion I see just now are Muslims. Self described ‘Christians’ seem more interested in the latest reality TV show or Apple gadget than following the teachings of Christ.

 

[Tom22]

Do you think that the killing of Salman Rushdie would be an appropriate punishment for writing a book you disapprove of?.

Did Rushdie commit blasphemy or did he not?

So what would the Christians of the middle ages have done with him if Rushdie had attempted to defile their religion in the way he did with Islam?

 

[devoutchristian]

But in the UK the democratic process is going the complete opposite way that Christians should want. Even now the UK has an affluent, right-wing, conservative, male-dominated government, which some people (unfairly in my view) would associate in certain ways with Christianity, and they are implementing some of the most un-Christian policies you could find. Again a comparison here with Muslims who are going to the streets to teach people about the benefits of sharia and God’s law over the set up they have right now. Only people in the UK protesting against prostitution, gambling, marginalizing of the poor, abortion I see just now are Muslims. Self described ‘Christians’ seem more interested in the latest reality TV show or Apple gadget than following the teachings of Christ.

I certainly agree that a just dictatorship or oligarchy would be better than an evil democracy, but as I said before private individuals do not have the authority to prevent non-forcible evils such as blasphemy.

 

[guanophore]

Greetings Tom22 and welcome to Catholic Answers Forum!

 Hello. I am Muslim but I would like to ask why have Christians so easily accepted atheism and the bullying of the evolutionists to try and bring down their religion?

Atheism is a condition that exists among humans. Why would we not accept the reality of what is? I accept atheism for the same reason I accept Islam. I dont’ like it, I don’t agree with it, but I affirm the freedom of choice that God gave to all human souls to choose for themselves.

Even though I am Muslim I have a lot of respect for many Christians who i know, I often have discussions with them and I admire the charity work they do. But it only seems like the elderly (particularly elderly black) Christians still stay true to their morals and values.

I have the same expereince with Muslims I know. Many of them put Catholics to shame by their devoted practice of their faith. The willingness to die for what one believes is something that most Christians have never been called upon to demonstrate, especially here in the US.

There are a lot of Christians who agree with the atheists and evolutionists in their dismissal of God and only care about materialism and living in the moment. Or rather they may not be practicing their religion but they still describe themselves as ‘Christian’ on census form and things. You rarely get Muslims describing themselves as ‘Muslim’ but at the same time caring more about the latest iphone than praying.

I know, and technically speaking, these “Christians” have fallen away from their faith, rejected, or abandoned it and are not in good standing. They should not be used as a measure of of those who are pure in it. For what it is worth, one reason I do not concern myself with those who reject God is that I am more concerned about these who claim to be Christian but make non-Christian choices. Separating oneself from the pleasures of the world and placing prayer as a priority is commendable.

I live in the UK and even recently there has been some legislation for gay people to get married in churches and I was shocked that many prominent bishops just came out and said ‘Oh we don’t really agree but we’ll accept it anyway in the name of progress!’. And the UK Prime Minister describes himself as a practicing Christian but has no compunction about letting gay marriage happen in the Church.

As Christians we see ourselves as pilgrims on this planet and that our home is in heaven with God. Our role here is to be light and salt in human society. Sometimes there is so much darkness and rotteness that we are unable to illuminate and preserve the good in society. I agree with you that we should try, but the directon that the gay marriage thing is going, and the speed at which it is moving looks to me to be an avalanche that we cannot stop. Whe can register our point, and verbalize our protests, inform our representatives and refuse to agree/cooperate, but we cannot use violence to prevent godlessness.

If it had been enforced that gays are to be married in mosques you would see millions of Muslims rioting and protesting and not standing for it.

And well you should not. We have (currently at least) a luxury here in the US with the separation of Church and State, so that the State cannot force us to do anything in the Church. However, things are getting increasingly restrictive. For example, the government has forced all adoption agencies to allow adoptions to same sex couples, so many Catholic adoption agencies have had to close. The government has forced everyone who provides medical services to provide abortive services, many Catholic hospitals and school health programs will have to close. These signs are telling me that the divide between Christian values and modern culture is becoming sharper and sharper, and it will be increasingly costly to live our faith in public.

 These days secular comedians mock and make fun of Catholics and Protestants all the time but the Christian world stays silent and lets them get away with it where as you see Muslims out defending the Qu'ran and Muhammad in protests and pickets, but even some Christians and Jews have called those Muslims out as 'extremists' and lacking intelligence.

Well, protest and pickets are one thing, but we see killing the opposition as quite another.

One of the values of Western culture, especially in the US is that freedom of speech and freedom of religion. These values, written into our laws, allow people of dissenting values to express themselves. We may not like what they have to say, but we defend their right to say it. That is why, for example, a mosque is still permitted to reside down the street from where the Twin Towers were destroyed.

So I would like to ask, what is wrong with defending your religion and Prophets against an onslaught of atheism and Darwin/Dawkins worshipers? And how much abuse and ridicule should be stood for before Christians say 'I'm not staying silent anymore, I'm taking to the streets'

Many thanks for your replies.

We are all in support of defending our religion, and our prophets, and fighting against the onslaught of atheists, apostates, and secularists. I am not sure what you mean by “taking to the streets” but Jesus taught us a different way of defending our faith. We re to use gentleness, reverence, and pray for our enemies and those who persecute us.

The major difference between what Muslims believe and what Christians believe is that we are focused on transformation on the inside of the person. People are not transformed by violence and killing, or by coercion. People are transformed by love.

 

[devoutchristian]

So what would the Christians of the middle ages have done with him if Rushdie had attempted to defile their religion in the way he did with Islam?

Some would have executed him, others would have imprisoned him, but private individuals could not have done either.

 

[Tom22]

But there is another part to the story. Practicing Christians are a minority in the UK. Those in name only really don’t care about God, they are secular people who have taken all the norms of the secular world and seem to be happy with them. They are embarrassed for the church and its beliefs and moral values and are happy to reject it all in the name of progress and modernity.

I agree with you that many of these people are embarrassed for their beliefs and they don’t practice. This is why i say the only Christians I meet who are still strong in their beliefs and god-fearing people are elderly black people. So why do these people who don’t care about God, why do they still write down ‘Christianity’ as their religion on surveys and forms? Why don’t they just put ‘no religion’ or ‘atheist’, what is stopping them from describing themselves as atheist? After all, being atheist is the ‘trendy’ thing to do right now. This is of interest to me because even the Muslims I know who are as far off their Deen as can be, they still at least show SOME interest in God, Scripture, and praying, but those who still call themselves ‘Christian’ in descriptions probably couldn’t even tell you the name of 4 Prophets, but they could name you every one of Rihanna’s songs.

 

[Brendan_64]

Did Rushdie commit blasphemy or did he not?

So what would the Christians of the middle ages have done with him if Rushdie had attempted to defile their religion in the way he did with Islam?

So come on then, answer the question. Do you think Salman Rushdie should be killed for writing his book?

Or do you not have the courage to say what you think?

Your point about the middle ages is an interesting one. The extremism of the Middle Ages does not represent some ‘golden age’ of Christianity. The barbarity of the Middle Ages is not something Christ would have approved of and it certainly has no scriptural backing in the teachings of Christ.

Is that where your vision of Islam would take us? To Medieval forms of justice?

 

[KP3243]

But in the UK the democratic process is going the complete opposite way that Christians should want. Even now the UK has an affluent, right-wing, conservative, male-dominated government, which some people (unfairly in my view) would associate in certain ways with Christianity, and they are implementing some of the most un-Christian policies you could find. Again a comparison here with Muslims who are going to the streets to teach people about the benefits of sharia and God’s law over the set up they have right now. Only people in the UK protesting against prostitution, gambling, marginalizing of the poor, abortion I see just now are Muslims. Self described ‘Christians’ seem more interested in the latest reality TV show or Apple gadget than following the teachings of Christ.

I know the English Catholic Bishops are fighting against gay marriage and have consistently have fought for the poor they are just in the minority which is not the case in the US. The Reformation did terrible things to England.

 

[Celtic_Maiden]

In fairness to Fairwinds the OP did specifically support rioting.

He later mentioned Salman Rushdie and the fatwah that was put upon him lauding this to be a good thing. What else is this, other than supporting a sentence calling for Muslims to kill a man who was simply expressing his opinions in a book?

We ought to be charitable, but we should not let our desire to be charitable lead us to ignore, or turn a blind eye to such things. The OP has spoken in favour of riotiing and of at least the fathwah on Salman Rushdie, so Fairwind’s response is entirely appropriate and not uncharitable.

Fairwinds gave a very appropriate and charitable response, in my opinion an excellent response, unlike the person who thought it was uncharitable for myself I would call it a spineless response to a perfect question when rioting and a fathwah was brough up.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

So why do these people who don’t care about God, why do they still write down ‘Christianity’ as their religion on surveys and forms? Why don’t they just put ‘no religion’ or ‘atheist’, what is stopping them from describing themselves as atheist?

I don’t know. It could be tied to their cultural identity. Although I think more and more people who have left the faith don’t put ‘Christian’ on forms and surveys. A growing number of people don’t baptize their children, and that is a sure sign that they don’t consider themselves Christians. (Unless they belong to a group that only accepts adult baptisms.)

I lived in the UK for a long time and the people I encountered at church were of all ages, from the young to the old. It could be a regional thing that you see elderly black people as those who practice their faith.

I really struggle with these things you mention on this thread and do wish that Christians in the west had more of a backbone these days. I wouldn’t want to see us involved in violence in any way, but protesting would be a good way to deal with constant assaults on our faith and way of life. I think that many people are scared of secularists and hide. Things are not going well for us, that is for sure. The very thought of going back to the UK scares me.

 

[VivienneJ]

I live in the UK and even recently there has been some legislation for gay people to get married in churches and I was shocked that many prominent bishops just came out and said ‘Oh we don’t really agree but we’ll accept it anyway in the name of progress!’. And the UK Prime Minister describes himself as a practicing Christian but has no compunction about letting gay marriage happen in the Church.

I’d just like to point out, Tom, that in the UK the Anglican church is the state church - therefore the priests, bishops, etc of the Anglican church are obliged to provide baptisms, marriages and funerals. You don’t name the bishops you “quote” above, but the likelihood is that they are Anglican bishops, who will have to do whatever is legal in the country; the same will not apply to Catholic bishops, and they will not be permitting attempted marriages by gay persons in their churches.

 

[expounder]

I haven’t read the thread yet but i’m with the OP on this one. The only people who seem to be standing up for Christianity are Young Earth Creationists and some other groups. Your bible teaches the earth was made in 6 days(minus the whole day God had to rest). The holy spirit went to the apostles to give them the New Testament, so the bible is the word of God, so evolutionists, surely you can’t say God was lying when he said the earth was created in 6 days?

Off-topic: Day 3; plants were created Day 4;God created the Sun, moon and stars.
I don’t want an argument here, but how do plants manage to survive without the sun? They need sunlight to grow via photosynthesis…

 

[guanophore]

I do not see that the Rushdie and the cartoon protests made Islam look barbaric and cruel at all. Rather I see it that Muslims are standing up for what we believe in a world full of secularization and materialism, and dismissal of anyone who believes in a Creator to be childlike and uneducated. Not a day goes by where some Hollywood comedian or celebrity doesn't take to Twitter or TV to deride Jesus, Noah and the flood, the Bible. They do this with Muhammad and Qu'ran too but to a less harsher degree because they know that **it is not tolerated in Islam**.

I think you hit on the major difference between Islam and Christianity, Tom22. Islam isintolerant. That intolerance does take barbaric and cruel forms at times. Jesus taught against this attitude of intolerance.

 I remember when Madonna wiped her feet on a Bible to support gay rights, safe in the knowledge that she could get away with it because she knew the Christian reaction would be timid, and any Christian that spoke out against her would be dismissed by her fans as a 'fundamentalist'.

No, celebrities, politicians and other public figures do such things because their freedom of expression is protected here by law, not because Christains fail to become violent about it. I think you are misunderstanding tolerance for timidity. A person is not either timid or violent. There are ways to defend one’s beliefs without resorting to violence. I would certainly not sink myself into violence over any thing Madonna does! I pray for her because I think she is a lost and tortured soul.

 I am not for one moment suggesting religious people should attempt to FORCE these atheists and secularists to convert to a religion of choice, I am merely saying that we shouldn't allow them to get too confident in their agenda. In my opinion there is an agenda to rid the world of all religious belief in favour of debauchery, deprivation, and animalistic desires under the cloak of 'free will'.

We are in agreement on this point, for sure. Jesus taught that Satan is actualy the god of this world, and that we who are faithful are not “of” this world. We are in it, and as long as we are, we need to promote the good and resist evil.

And by allowing atheists and their ilk to permeate every level of society and get their way of stopping children from having a religion, gays adopt children, more abortion and so on, it is playing right into it. If Catholics and Protestants are okay with that then… I am just thankful that Islam doesn’t roll over the moment a professor fellow with a fancy title and plumy English accent shouts ‘It’s progress, you’re just a bigot!’

The fact is that these things to permeate Western society, especially in the US. What I think will be a better use of our energies is to work with those who call themselves Christians to more authenticaly live their faith in a fallen world.

 

[guanophore]

Why do you look at is as being "bullied" or as "submitting"?

In many cases, people listen to the debates and arguments and information an atheist or agnostic gives, often they are hearing it for the first time, and find they…agree. Freely.

And many who don’t agree do protest.

I think Christianity is bullied, and many claiminng to be Christians do fail to resist evil as we are commanded.

But I think the question also has to be posed, why did Jesus submit to being bullied, mocked, and delegitimized? He had a greater good in mind, as we must also. When we are mocked and bullied, we enter into carrying our cross with HIm.

Atheists and evolutionists aren’t focused on “bringing down” someone’s religion, that is not their main goal. They are concerned with finding and living the truth…and, as you are, don’t want others who believe something different to interfere or not respect their beliefs and how they need to live.

.

I agree with you, there are some that are seeking truth, but I also think there most certainly are some who are trying to bring down religion, because they do, as the OP says, think it is childish to have religion. Just read Freud on religion in Civilization and its Discontents!

 

[Brendan_64]

I haven’t read the thread yet but i’m with the OP on this one…

By that do you mean riots, fatwahs, a return to Medieval forms of ‘justice’? Is that the sort of world you would have us live in? A world where all are forced to submit to religious beliefs? A world where nobody is permitted to question, criticise or ridicule religious beliefs? A world where death sentences are dished out for expressing opinions?